Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[Ethan Winer]

but something that measures well does not necessarily sound good!

If you can show a specific example of that I'd love to see it.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

In the other locked thread you wrote:

I can readily hear changes just by moving my head tiny amounts - an inch will make a change. So I can readily hear the effects you describe as comb filtering. It definately exists - I can blatantly hear it!

Exactly.

I changed the cable on my bi-wired Ascents from Mission solid core to Naim NAC5 multistrand on the bass cones. Result? An obvious perceived increase in bass output

I can't see how this could be unless the previous cables were defective, or way too thin like the 30 gauge wire you see some people use. But if the bass really did change it can be readily measured at the speaker terminals. This is a basic frequency response test that can be done with a voltmeter and test tone CD.

So please go ahead and try that with both cables, then report the results here. If the response is identical with both cables, will you then agree it's all perception and, possibly, comb filtering?

--Ethan

 

[tonepub]

What is the point of this thread going forward?

You don't think that anything sounds different, so why is everyone
bothering to try and convince/impress you?

 

[RichTeer]

If you can show a specific example of that I'd love to see it.

--Ethan

Just about any integrated amp or receiver from the late 1970's onwards.

Early CD players.

Many (all?) examples of the above have almost ruler flat frequency response, vanishingly low THD--and sound like crap.

 

[User211]

I take your point, Jeff. But I can't say I am trying to impress Ethan. Just ignore the thread if it is a problem. Other people wanted it to carry on, so we have done.

Anyway, back to Ethan's points 2 posts earlier. Here are some relevant points:

1) I sold the cable in question on ebay years ago. So I can't do the test. What a shame - I would have liked to have done. But it did teach me a serious lesson. I now use Nordost Red Dawn Rev II, which is better still. I'm not fibbing - check my system page which has been up for a while now.

2) The solid core was about 2-3mm thick - which makes it around ten gauge, using the US notation I have just looked up. The multi-strand was about 5-6mm thick.

3) Within the resolution of my voltmeter, I'd expect NOT to be able to measure any difference between the two cables for, say, a steady state tone test at maybe 40Hz.

4) I would hope to be able to detect a difference in output using the microphone based null tests you talked about previously, for REAL music.

5) You will not agree with 4).

6) I submit that I could reliably detect which cable was connected blind-folded by ear. I could probably detect it in all honesty even if I wasn't in the room - say the room next door, the difference was that marked.

7) You will not agree with 6).

The simple way to argue the case for technical measurements is to tie them in with subjective results. If no difference can be detected, but a human can accurately, or at least more often not not - say 70% of the time (with his head in a vice, if you like), determine a difference when blind-folded, then your objective approach is wrong.

Try as I have done, I haven't seen a study or article on the net that has tried to do this.

That's the point I want to make.

 

[C.A.P]

What is the point of this thread going forward?

You don't think that anything sounds different, so why is everyone
bothering to try and convince/impress you?

I agree 100%


Really, Ethan, You answer what you want and who you want and doubt the rest.

This is a free ride for you , Where else can you get this much free add space !

 

[jtwrace]

I agree 100%


Really, Ethan, You answer what you want and who you want and doubt the rest.

This is a free ride for you , Where else can you get this much free add space !

I propose that Ethan sponsors the Room Acoustic section that I've suggested to TomDac.

Thoughts?

 

[Ethan Winer]

1) I sold the cable in question on ebay years ago. So I can't do the test.

Surely you can find another cable you believe sounds different than standard lamp cord, no?

Within the resolution of my voltmeter, I'd expect NOT to be able to measure any difference between the two cables for, say, a steady state tone test at maybe 40Hz.

If changing a cable affects the perceived level of bass, why do you think a meter won't reflect that? Most meters can resolve to well under 1 dB! And 1 dB is more than 12 percent, which is a pretty big change for a voltmeter! The "obvious" difference you described sounds like at least 3 dB if not more.

6) I submit that I could reliably detect which cable was connected blind-folded by ear. I could probably detect it in all honesty even if I wasn't in the room - say the room next door, the difference was that marked.

Okay, make that 5 to 10 dB.

Any meter can show that.

If no difference can be detected, but a human can accurately, or at least more often not not - say 70% of the time (with his head in a vice, if you like), determine a difference when blind-folded, then your objective approach is wrong.

Yes, that would convince me for sure. But I won't believe it until I see it in person. Saying the difference was obvious, but then falling back on a safe number like 70 percent, implies it might not have been so obvious after all. If it were truly obvious, you'd be able to pick it out 100 times out of 100. I could accept 70 percent, but it would have to be for several dozen trials. And I have to be there to see it. Call me the James Randi of audio debunking.

If there's any way we could actually do this, I'd love to get together and post the results here.

This reminds me of a test I did with a local recording engineer. He was certain he'd be able to tell the difference between a $25 sound blaster card and his $6,000 Apogee A/D converter. So he came to my home studio and we recorded some demanding instruments including claves, triangle, and steel string acoustic guitar. Guess what? He couldn't tell one recording from the other. Note that we recorded the same performance into both sound cards at once, so it was a true apples-to-apples comparison.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, You answer what you want and who you want and doubt the rest.

Say what?! I'm the only one NOT ducking things! Tell you what - you list all the points you think I ducked, and I'll list all the points I've seen others duck. Then nothing will proceed until every ducked question is addressed to the satisfaction of all.

Deal?

This is a free ride for you , Where else can you get this much free add space !

Free ad space? For what, my "truth and justice" sig line? :wtf:

--Ethan

 

[jtwrace]

$25 sound blaster card and his $6,000 Apogee A/D converter. So he came to my home studio and we recorded some demanding instruments including claves, triangle, and steel string acoustic guitar. Guess what? He couldn't tell one recording from the other. Note that we recorded the same performance into both sound cards at once, so it was a true apples-to-apples comparison.

--Ethan

Then why do recordings vary so much in quality?

 

[Ethan Winer]

Then why do recordings vary so much in quality?

The most important part of any recording is, in approximate order:

the performers
the music being performed
the recording room's acoustics
microphone placement
skill of the mixing engineer​

Everything else is way less important.

--Ethan

 

[jtwrace]

The most important part of any recording is, in approximate order:

the performers
the music being performed
the recording room's acoustics
microphone placement
skill of the mixing engineer​

Everything else is way less important.

--Ethan

so your saying that the big name bands that we all like that sound like crap on CD all of the above was not good? I find that strange as most of the time they use same studios/engineers that put out great sounding music. I would think that there has to be more to it.

 

[User211]

It did sound about 2-3dB different - the best way to describe it to you - just a fuller sound down below, really. 10dB is just taking the ****, Ethan!

The 70% to which I referred was just for the general case - not what I at least think I heard.

Anyway, do a test with some members. But they must agree they can hear a difference before the test.

 

[Ethan Winer]

so your saying that the big name bands that we all like that sound like crap on CD all of the above was not good? I find that strange as most of the time they use same studios/engineers that put out great sounding music. I would think that there has to be more to it.

Sometimes one man's "crap" is another man's "great." I don't know which recordings you think sound terrible, and of course your own room acoustics have a huge influence on what you hear. Do all the recordings you think suck sound equally bad on headphones?

If you think there's more to a good recording than the basics I listed, and have a solid explanation for your reasoning, I'd love to hear it. Not "I read in a magazine that..." but something concrete. :music:

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

It did sound about 2-3dB different

Great - a difference that large will easily show on any meter. So do you have two speaker cables that you think sound different?

You'd think cable sellers would show graphs proving this point, but I've never seen anything beyond flowery prose and photos of overweight middle age men dancing by themselves.

Anyway, do a test with some members. But they must agree they can hear a difference before the test.

I would love to do this with anyone here who lives near me and is willing! My gut feeling is it will turn out just like my friend's test with A/D converters. But I'm glad to be proven wrong.

--Ethan

 

[tonepub]

There are so many reasons why a lot of today's music sounds lousy, but a lot of it comes down to the fact that most engineers can't hear. They've been blasting their JBL (or whatever) monitors in control rooms for so long, I'd be surprised if many of them can hear past 10k anymore.

The mastering engineers are no better. Many times they take a perfectly good recording, crank the levels and EQ so it will sound better on the radio or an iPod and ruin a perfectly good recording.

When I sat in on the mastering of the last Tom Petty album, the master tape sounded great, but the CD was bright and compressed because that's what the producer wanted for airplay and downloads.

The LP version that Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray produced was open, airy and much more true to the master tape. Same thing with a number of masters I've heard over at Mobile Fidelity. The first Santana album is a great case in point. The master, even though it's almost 40 years old still sounds fantastic with a lot of life, as does the MoFi remaster on LP or CD, but if you have this record in your collection you know how bad it sounds.

That's great Ethan that you made some recordings with a good converter and a sound blaster and couldn't tell a difference, but you aren't a professional recording engineer that works for a major or audiophile label, so I'm betting you're no rocket scientist behind the mixing console either.

The system you listed earlier in this thread isn't capable of terribly high resolution either, so even if you did know what you were doing making recordings, the system you had wouldn't reveal it anyway, no matter how good your room is. Old JBL's with Crown amps. Come on. I used to spend a lot of time in a friends studio who used those to mix radio commercials and they were junk back then. He said the only reason he used them was because they were so harsh up on top that it made it easier for him to hear tape splices.

So, I'm calling shenanigans here. Your whole system isn't worth the cost of a good power cord. Move up into the 21st century and well talk.

 

[Ethan Winer]

the master tape sounded great, but the CD was bright and compressed because that's what the producer wanted for airplay and downloads.

As I said, the mixing engineer is a factor, or in this case the producer. This is a real problem! Decisions are made based on perception of what "the masses" want, so things are done that everyone in the control room agrees is lame.

you aren't a professional recording engineer that works for a major or audiophile label, so I'm betting you're no rocket scientist behind the mixing console either.

You just can't hold a civil conversation without being insulting can you?

Jeff, please post some links to any music you've performed on, recorded, mixed, or mastered. I'd love to hear your work and assess your talent.

Your whole system isn't worth the cost of a good power cord. Move up into the 21st century and well talk.

LOL! Jeff, you have done a mighty fine job of addressing all the technical issues that I've raised in this thread.

Folks, what's so pathetic about Jeff's insults is the only reason I even came into this thread is because he PM'd me to commiserate how loony some people can be believing in magic dots. But it seems Jeff's of the same religion, just a slightly different sect.

--Ethan

 

[amey01]

If you can show a specific example of that I'd love to see it.

--Ethan

As Jeff said - virtually every solid state amplifier from the late '70s. Also, most CD players measure comparatively well yet some sound quite bad.

I think we give the ear less credit than it deserves for what it can process. Even if measurements were the "be all and end all" and we do know 100% of the factors that affect audio reproduction, I think the ear is capable of picking up naunces in sound that are beyond the capabilities of measuring instruments. With only two channels, we can pinpoint a sound coming from any location around our head. The sound can be of any frequency, in any acoustic environment and we don't have to have heard it previously. Amazing.

 

[jtwrace]

Sometimes one man's "crap" is another man's "great." I don't know which recordings you think sound terrible, and of course your own room acoustics have a huge influence on what you hear. Do all the recordings you think suck sound equally bad on headphones?

If you think there's more to a good recording than the basics I listed, and have a solid explanation for your reasoning, I'd love to hear it. Not "I read in a magazine that..." but something concrete. :music:

--Ethan

Ethan-

I would've thought that there is more to it. A local friend to me has a REAL mastering studio. Like Jeff, I sat in once with him and the band and was amazed at what goes on. Further, I believe that the mastering side is much more like our hobby.

I will say that I can listen to an album in my car (BMW 335) and know if it will sound worth a damn in my house. Actually, I've even listened to an album at Barnes & Noble and said this will sound good on the big system. What happens? It will sound good.

It is ignorant for me to say that I know it all. I don't. That's why I ask people like yourself, Jeff, Cherian and others on this site. They ALL have something to offer as we all do different things in life.

btw-you have answered every question of mine except the last one. When are you going to step up and sponsor the soon to come Room Acoustic section?

 

[Bernard]

btw-you have answered every question of mine except the last one. When are you going to step up and sponsor the soon to come Room Acoustic section?

Jason, what do you have in mind when you say "sponsor"?