Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[jtwrace]

Jason, what do you have in mind when you say "sponsor"?

pay TomDac (owner of MLOF) for a banner ad

 

[Ethan Winer]

As Jeff said - virtually every solid state amplifier from the late '70s. Also, most CD players measure comparatively well yet some sound quite bad.

I have heard this ad nauseum, but have yet to see a legitimate demonstration. Now, I am aware of "specs" being omitted or fudged, like years ago when you'd see cheap power amplifiers claiming outrageous amounts of power, with that little asterisk saying "instantaneous peak power" in fine print. But I disagree that all SS gear from the late 70s sucks. That's a pretty outrageous claim if you think about it! And I suppose tube amps from back then were all good?

I think the ear is capable of picking up naunces in sound that are beyond the capabilities of measuring instruments.

I'm sure you believe that, but I could easily prove you wrong if you were here to participate in some tests. Indeed, why do you think that? Please be specific! And in keeping with the newly imposed "no ducking" policy please answer that specific question.

Also, have you ever tested audio circuits with precision test equipment? Do you own an oscilloscope and know how to use it? And so forth.

I'm not trying to be combative, but to stay highly focused.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

When are you going to step up and sponsor the soon to come Room Acoustic section?

I dunno, how much does it cost? What's in it for me?

Seriously, I have banner ads at only one web site, a forum for audio pros. But I'm here as just another guy like everyone else. I specifically changed my sig so nobody would accuse me of being here to sell stuff. Heck, if my intent here was to create good will for my company's products, I'd be doing a pretty lousy job of it.

Indeed, I feel so strongly about this stuff that I risk harming my own business to explain what I see as The Truth. Even when people like Jeff and some others get very angry and hostile. Which amazes me. I'm not angry at Jeff for his beliefs. It's irritating having to wade though all the insults, and his constant ducking of pretty much every pointed question I asked him. For example, I wish Jeff would explain why it's better to measure distortion at the AC power outlet rather than at the speaker terminals. But I don't get angry at opposing viewpoints, just frustrated at some of the childishness.

--Ethan

 

[DonAudio]

Hi Guys! Thought I'd chime in here as the gravity story sort of plays into the theme of things.

When Newton wrote out his equation for gravity it explained in sufficient detail (still sufficient for almost all purposes still today) the motion of objects under the influence of the "force" of gravity. That was it, lock stock and barrel; one formula capable of describing perfectly everything about bodies in motion under the influence of gravity. Something however continued to bother him right up until his death. He knew it and avoided as best he could. It was "action at a distance". How could these bodies be "aware" of each other at distances that required several minutes if not millions of light years and transmit these changes instantaneously to each other.

It wasn't until Einstein much later pointed out that gravity was a local event caused by the geometry of space-time not a "force" acting over a distance at all. Einsteins theory on gravity gave us all the same answers as Newton but now more correctly described the how.

In each case these equations weren't scientific fact but were models of close approximation. The one only being more fundamentally related to the "reality" of the situation in that it did not call on the magic of "action at a distance".

Einstein was troubled until the end of his days. He knew how to combine several of the fundamental forces of nature into one framework but failed to incorporate gravity. Scientists are busy trying to incorporate all of these "forces" into one theory of everything. The energy necessary to test these theories is just now becoming available, i.e. the LHC (large hadron collider).

Ethans approach is stolid. He is right to question things to the nth degree. It gets rid of a lot of the garbage. But it is not the last word. We can't just approach based on the quantitative aspect alone. Our models are incomplete. As Ethan knows and also others as I heard it in Ameys response; scientists hold several variables rigid while varying one to see the effects on another. This is very hard to do in a dynamic situation for test equipment, but not for the brain.

It is reasonable for any amplifier worth its salt to produce a near perfect sine wave at 1kHz at 1 watt. Music is so complex and dymanic that this measurement doesn't help to sort out the boys from the men. But the brain will.

I have so enjoyed this thread. Both men involved in this heated argument handled themselves remarkably well. Kudos to you guys. The passion was great!

 

[jtwrace]

The passion was great!

Was? I doubt it's over...

 

[User211]

Great - a difference that large will easily show on any meter. So do you have two speaker cables that you think sound different?

You'd think cable sellers would show graphs proving this point, but I've never seen anything beyond flowery prose and photos of overweight middle age men dancing by themselves.

As I stated earlier, I wouldn't expect you to be able to measure the difference - at least steady state with a 40Hz test tone and a voltmeter. The 2-3dB was just a way to describe a deeper, fuller sounding bass. I know this is obviously sounding cretinous to you. If you can't measure it, how can that be the case, you reason. Ethan, I totally see your logic. But it is my firm belief that you are NOT right! I can change a few caps in an amp, then have to change them back cos I don't like them. I can hear the difference between different manufacturers KT88s (less so with 211s, I must admit - but it is there). Maybe I am an alien with special abilities - but I can hear a difference!

I will back up Jeff's point, because it is an excellent one. If you don't have a top flight system, you're just not going to hear the changes cables can make to the same degree as in a lesser one. And you have NOT got one, without appearing to be rude. This is a statement of fact. You have an amazingly well treated room, granted.

I think I am running out of energy... At least I tried!

 

[amey01]

That's a pretty outrageous claim if you think about it! And I suppose tube amps from back then were all good?

I did not say "all" as in "each and every amplifier" - re-read the sentence. As with SS, I'm sure some valve amps were good, some were not so good.

Indeed, why do you think that? Please be specific! And in keeping with the newly imposed "no ducking" policy please answer that specific question.

I think that because of my knowledge of human hearing. Human hearing is a two-channel device, yet capable of rendering the most wildly realistic "surround" information imaginable.

I will argue with you 'till the cows come home that how it works is not fully understood yet, so I won't go there.

But that is my opinion. That said, we do know we can pinpoint, let's say a "voice" moving the space of 1-2 mm in front of your face. To do this, your ear is evaluating the time differences of that sound reaching one of your ears before the other. My knowledge of physics and the speed at which sound travels tells me that that time difference is miniscule. Yet we can pick this up without any effort or thought. There are other things going on.

 

[C.A.P]

Say what?! I'm the only one NOT ducking things! Tell you what - you list all the points you think I ducked, and I'll list all the points I've seen others duck. Then nothing will proceed until every ducked question is addressed to the satisfaction of all.


Deal?
[/B][/COLOR]



Free ad space? For what, my "truth and justice" sig line? :wtf:

--Ethan

HMM over 6000 hits in 1 month , Your post count has doubled because of this thred. It doesn't mater if its Good or bad as long as they are talking about you ! That is as free as it gets !

OK Lets cut to the chase. What does a acoustic manufacture with NO Martin Logan's have to to with a site that is 99% Martin Logan related. Hell the name even says what its about.MARTIN LOGAN RELATED QUESTIONS. You come here and insult members who are long standing and well respected. You practically insulted everyone who has doubted you and your beliefs. What DO you, actually have in common with this site NOTHING! You have NO Martin Logan's ! NEVER OWNED THEM. But, you can insinuate about them and educate us on them. IF for what reason other then to promote your products do you come here ? It sure is hell isn't for knowledge....

 

[TomDac]

NOW should I close the thread???

 

[jjay]

I find it interesting that members get so worked up on either side of this issue. Can't we just try to listen to each side and decide for ourselves. I know I can disagree or agree without getting worked up.
And Ethan was asked to give his opinion If I remember correctly. Rudeness to others is probably why this thread was closed before.
JMHO
Jim

 

[TomDac]

I find it interesting that members get so worked up on either side of this issue.

Me too. Getting worked up over an internet discussion is IMHO, a giant waste of energy. It's better to glean what knowledge you can out of the thread and move on... let someone have their opinion... it's not worth arguing over (to me).

with that being said, however, many of the Sr. members here really feel like this is more than just a forum.. it's their home in a way... I really like that. I think maybe CAP feels this way too and sees Ethan as an interloper of sorts.

 

[User211]

Well, I dunno, it's that aggressive cat that keeps throwing all the punches that is doing my head in... he said, trying to lighten the load!

 

[DonAudio]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but if a member overtly insults another member I usually count the insult as a weakness of the person delivering the insult and go on to ignore it hoping the lack of attention to it will go noticed again by the person delivering it.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Mr. Don,

You bring up an appropriate question (insulting response indicates weakness) and one I wish to respond to.

I personally have no problem when someone disagrees with me. It's how they disagree that is critical to civil discourse.

If Mr. Winer had initially responded in a respectful manner, my and other members combative / insulting posts would not have occurred.

Let's do a comparison relative to Mr. Winer's specific comments on my observations.

Response No. 1 regarding a disagreement.

I read your observations regarding Product X (insert name) and found it quite interesting. However, based on my technical background, I find it difficult to understand how you can justify your observations from an objective / measurement perspective. With all due respect and given my technical expertise in this field, I would suggest that other factors may be influencing your observations that cannot be scientifically proven.

Response No. 2.

I'm paraphrasing Mr. Winer so please forgive.

Regarding your observations on Product X, you are clearly living in a fantasy world. What you are hearing is simply not possible. You were abducted by aliens who probed your (name your body part) and your personal observations have no credibility.

Mr. Winer, please don't fall back on your use of emoticons. Your message was very clear.

The above examples clearly indicate different ways of dealing with disagreements.

Mr. Winer has consistently chosen No. 2 with me, other well respected forum members, and other well respected professional reviewers of high end audio.

There are many ways to be insulting, even though one may believe that they are merely stating their own perspective in a respectful, courteous manner.

However, one cannot measure / quantify this communication anamoly.

GG

 

[Beakman]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but if a member overtly insults another member I usually count the insult as a weakness of the person delivering the insult and go on to ignore it hoping the lack of attention to it will go noticed again by the person delivering it.

Well you're pretty dull, huh?

 

[amey01]

I don't know why people get worked up either - just gloss over the insults, they're childish.

That said, being a controversial topic (the initiator of the thread even explicicitly states people might call him "Crazy" before any discussion had started) I think everyone has conducted themselves remarkably well.

I've learnt an awful lot from this thread.

While I don't change my base opinion of:
* Tweak money is better spent on conventional upgrades, and;
* 2008 science is not complete, and;
* Things happen that we can't explain with 2008 science;
I still have acquired lot to think about from this thread.

Thanks to everyone who participated!

 

[hotroady]

Your lack of understanding of circuit design is becoming more and more apparent the more you post.

I think you need to do a little bit more homework. You're sounding more and more like a mid fi guy as you go on. By the way, how many successful amplifiers have you designed?

Most of the better designers I've talked to would completely disagree with you on the importance of clean power.

Same with Frank Van Alstine. Great guy, great basic engineer and circuit designer, but pretty much another flat earth guy. All amplifiers sound the same, cables don't matter at all and he's not even a fan of acoustic treatments in your room. His stuff sounds very good for the money and is very generic.

But to him, anything that costs more than his gear is frivolous.

He won't say all amps sound the same(that would shoot himself in the foot) I'm sure he would have people spend money on more of his equipment than cables...some merit there..but doesn't really help to optimize what you have w IC's and speaker cable. Dynaco gave a lot a bang for the buck...his upgrades keep a good thing going. His Ultimate 70 has a mid range that is hard to equal. I have his Pat 5 also, and a stock FM-3. Once I have it modded w his upgrades, it will represent a very nice set, for my Hi-Fi collection. Almost bought his Ultra DAC..I think I'll wait for future developments in upsampling DACs to compare.

 

[User211]

This reminds me of a test I did with a local recording engineer. He was certain he'd be able to tell the difference between a $25 sound blaster card and his $6,000 Apogee A/D converter. So he came to my home studio and we recorded some demanding instruments including claves, triangle, and steel string acoustic guitar. Guess what? He couldn't tell one recording from the other. Note that we recorded the same performance into both sound cards at once, so it was a true apples-to-apples comparison.
--Ethan

Through a pair of Mackies and low-mid-fi amp, probably not. Through a pair of Spires and a great amp, maybe!

I have already made that point a few posts above. But stuff gets repeated round here quite a lot.

Ethan, I don't think you realise how resolving modern day stats really are. As you say, you have never heard any MLs. So do the following:

Find your local ML dealer. Go there and listen to a pair of Spires or CLXs - with your amp hooked up. Then ask the dealer to plug in a good hi-end amp. Hell, take some bell wire, and then ask the dealer to hook the amp to speaker up with some good Nordost cable, or whatever he has to hand. Then come back and tell us what you thought.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, I don't think you realise how resolving modern day stats really are.

I don't think you realize how resolving my bi-amped JBL and bi-amped Mackie speakers are.

It doesn't take "better" speakers than what I have to hear a change in fullness, or whatever else you describe for a speaker wire change or adding magic dots. I think that logical fallacy is known as a red herring. Both of my systems are very flat and with very low distortion. Both are fully professional, and capable of very high fidelity. If you or anyone else would like to visit me some time to do some proper listening tests, I'm all for it. I'm sure it will be most enlightening for everyone.

Until you actually measure this stuff for yourself, you will not understand the scientific view and why the scientific view is correct. Which is fine - carry on! :rocker:

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

we do know we can pinpoint, let's say a "voice" moving the space of 1-2 mm in front of your face. To do this, your ear is evaluating the time differences of that sound reaching one of your ears before the other.

Yes, but it's not only time differences. It's also the change in frequency response caused by comb filtering, as I have said repeatedly in this thread. It really is that simple.

--Ethan