Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[Ethan Winer]

I wouldn't expect you to be able to measure the difference - at least steady state with a 40Hz test tone and a voltmeter. The 2-3dB was just a way to describe a deeper, fuller sounding bass. I know this is obviously sounding cretinous to you. If you can't measure it, how can that be the case, you reason. Ethan, I totally see your logic. But it is my firm belief that you are NOT right!

The part I don't understand is how you can be so sure you're right, when you acknowledge your viewpoint makes no sense and you have no evidence to back it up.

--Ethan

 

[amey01]

Yes, but it's not only time differences. It's also the change in frequency response caused by comb filtering, as I have said repeatedly in this thread. It really is that simple.

--Ethan

I don't know about that - we can still pinpoint the location of a sound without any point of reference - in any acoustic environment. So even if comb filtering is there, it is meaningless without a point of reference.

 

[tonepub]

If you think a 20 year old pair of JBL's biamped with Crown amps and lamp cord is highly resolving and you've NEVER heard a pair of MartinLogan speakers, we have nothing to discuss here.

Next you'll be telling us there is no difference between your Camry and a Porsche or a Ferrari.

You've made your point that you do not think the dots work. Nothing wrong with that, but we've had two weeks of you telling us that we are all out to lunch when you don't have a system at home that even equals some of the most modest systems here on this forum.

Why is this pointless discussion continuing?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Rip

Dear ML Amigos,

Given that I am the person who started this thread, I fully concur with Jeff's last statement.

I want to thank everyone for their insights and observations.

The subjective versus the quantifiable discussion will continue to exist and, for that, I am grateful.

As for Ron providing his technical information on the window dots, he has obviously chosen a different way to address the issues raised by my personal, and other members observations. Thank you Ron.

As for Mr. Winer, I believe he is well intentioned given his personal experiences and bias towards measurements. So be it but it is time to move on.

Maybe Ethan might consider, as a manufacturer or rep thereof, to contribute to this website. That would be a statement.

If other members wish to start a new thread to continue this discussion, please do.

In closing, thank you Tom (for your tolerance and understanding) and all who have participated and provided their personal perspectives / experiences on this issue.

My best wishes to all of you. Have a great T day.

Gordon

 

[User211]

The part I don't understand is how you can be so sure you're right, when you acknowledge your viewpoint makes no sense and you have no evidence to back it up.

--Ethan

OK - check this out. What do you think? The guys at Pear audio seem to think it's readily measurable. As I said I'd hope it would show up in a null test. These guys seem to be claiming big differences in simple frequency response at the speakers terminals.

http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_comice_frequencyresponse.htm

Or are they lying?

 

[Ethan Winer]

Or are they lying?

Yes, they're lying. Standard 12 gauge zip cord used as speaker wire is definitely not 6+ dB down at 20 KHz.

--Ethan

 

[User211]

Pear shaped test, as I thought:ROFL:!

 

[Horchem1972]

Prove they are lying.

Somebody has shown you literature that you stated does not exist.Therefore by your own account,you are wrong.You will be wrong untill you show us scientific proof you are right.You will have to get the cables from Pear cable and measure them yourself.Untill you are able to Mr. Winer you are considered wrong.Sorry but your scintific approach can be a two edged sword.We will be waiting your findings after you measure their cables and your.good luck.

 

[Ethan Winer]

We will be waiting your findings after you measure their cables and your.good luck.

That's a great suggestion! I just sent the following by email to Pear, and I'll let you know what they say. Hopefully, they'll take me up on my suggestion to reply here.

--Ethan

Hi,

On this page of your web site you show the frequency responses comparing
your Comice cable to standard 12 gauge zip cord, as measured at the speaker
terminals:

http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_comice_frequencyresponse.htm

I have never seen normal zip cord exhibit a 6 dB drop at 20 KHz when used as
speaker wire with normal speakers and normal power amplifiers. I have never
seen normal zip cord exhibit even a 1 dB drop at 20 KHz for a length of only
14 feet. Would you be so kind as to give me more detail about the
"competitor" wire you tested, and also more information on the test
procedure itself?

The explanation about the low frequency roll-off on the above page also
makes no sense to me. If the voltage were measured at the speaker terminals
as you state, then the only roll-off from using a small woofer would be
acoustically in the air.

I don't understand this statement on the same page either:

"One final important note is that the frequency response
of cables will not, of course, give all the information
about how they will sound."

What else besides frequency response could a working speaker cable possibly
affect?

You're welcome to reply to this email but, even better, it would be great if
you reply at the public Martin-Logan forum where this page was brought to my
attention. Here's post #305 in that discussion where your site is linked:

http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?p=87731#post87731

Better still, would you be willing to loan me a set of your Comice speaker
cables so I can test them myself and see how they compare to standard 12
gauge zip cord?

Thanks very much for your consideration.

Ethan Winer

 

[User211]

Now I really am smiling. Big grin. If they reply, I'll be amazed...

I'm pretty sure that Hi-Fi News looked into this a few years ago trying to come up with why cables sound different - because they definately do. I'll see if I can track it down. There have been many reviews of various cables in the Hi-Fi press, and they pretty much all seem to conclude they make a difference, Ethan. It's not only me that thinks it.

Just tried their back issues search - couldn't find the article. Just seems to be gear focused rather than actual articles. Damn!

This looks interesting, though: http://www.audiodesignline.com/howto/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5EETG4KQA2CTWQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=201807390

Any comments, Ethan?

 

[User211]

Looks like Pear have had trouble before. This is a good read, if you have the time: http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/pear-cable-science

 

[amey01]

This thread keeps getting better - we may even solve a few things at this rate!

The part I don't understand is how you can be so sure you're right, when you acknowledge your viewpoint makes no sense and you have no evidence to back it up.

'Cos we hear the difference - it is clearly audiable!

 

[Bernard]

'Cos we hear the difference - it is clearly audiable!

It has often been said that people who WANT to hear a difference DO hear a difference, even if there isn't one. Using the same reasoning, is it not possible then that people who DO NOT WANT to hear a difference DO NOT HEAR a difference, even if there IS one? :devil:

 

[JMAUSGP]

Yes Bernard, or put another way. How can there be a difference if there shouldn't be a difference, when all the difference in the world doesn't make a difference!

 

[User211]

So wise, Bernard... so wise.

 

[Ethan Winer]

If they reply, I'll be amazed...

Prepare to be amazed. Copied here with permission:

Thank you for your interest in Pear Cable. Regarding the frequency response comparison, for more information please refer to the "system specification" section of the page that you have cited. As it states, the graph compares a system that has 5 meter interconnects and 14 feet of speaker cable (not just speaker cable as your email states). The results are the combined effect from the interconnects and speaker cable (more indicative of a real system that has separates). Regarding your question about things other than frequency response that will be relevant to audio cable performance, I will give you a basic example:

Electrostatic/Electromagnetic noise susceptibility. There are numerous sources of noise that can enter an audio system through the interconnects and speaker cables. This can be as obvious as clicking noises from a BlackBerry phone, or as unexpected as RFI that has been attracted by a pair of speaker cables, rectified into audible frequencies in an amplifier, and ultimately played through your speakers as something that was never part of the original recording. If you are interested in the audibility of the different speaker cables, I suggest you read an article by Lee Gomes from the Wall Street Journal here:

http://online.wsj.com/public/articl...991-Po6L667z7U6W9ZfTfXBmeCKlV80_20080214.html

where he found that 61% of listeners he tested could hear a difference between 2 pairs of speaker cables and that audiophiles could easily tell a difference. Please also keep in mind that this was far from a perfect test since the test was conducted on a system that was completely unfamiliar to the listeners over a relatively short listening timeframe.

Sincerely,

Adam Blake
Pear Cable, Inc.
Newton, MA
617-273-0348 | F: 617-870-5446

 

[Ethan Winer]

This looks interesting, though: http://www.audiodesignline.com/howto/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5EETG4KQA2CTWQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=201807390

I have huge respect for Phillip Newell, and that article shows exactly the sort of testing needed to prove the point one way or another. Now, if Adam Blake would be kind enough to loan me some Pear speaker cables to test against zip cord, I'd be sure to label all of the graphs.

The issues raised by that test are well summarized in the Audioholics article you linked to, and some of the articles linked to within that one.

FOLKS, PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY:

I never said that all speaker wires sound the same. What I said, and continue to say, is that all competent speakers wires will sound the same. I'm sure I already made this point, but apparently some of you missed it so here it is again: It is well known that some boutique cables have much higher capacitance than standard zip wire or Romex. It is also well known that some boutique power amplifiers are badly designed and will oscillate when presented with high capacitance loads. Even if they don't outright oscillate, frequency response will suffer and distortion will rise. Even when well designed, tube amps have a much higher output impedance than good solid state amps, so when you stick 99 feet of wire on their output the high end will suffer. This explains why the signal at the speaker end of the wire was different than at the amplifier end in some of Newell's tests.

This does not happen on solid, professional quality amplifiers like my Crown PowerBase models.

Same for line-level wiring. An incompetent output stage will have a high output impedance compared to a good solid state design. Couple that with wire having a high capacitance and you lose highs and thus clarity.

The bottom line is everything that matters with amps and preamps and wire can be expressed as frequency response, noise, and distortion. There is no such spec as "revealing," nor is there such a thing as "musical." Nor do "pace, rhythm, and timing" say anything. Those terms are meaningless because they can mean different things to different people. Like Alice in Wonderland, "A word means what I want it to mean" simply makes it meaningless.

So are we all on the same page now?



--Ethan

 

[Gordon Gray]

To Mr. Winer et al,

Please stop this.

It is blatantly obvious that no one is convincing anyone of anything and no one, despite the numerous posts to the contrary, is going to change their mind.

GG

PS: May I respectfully request that Mr. Winer start his own thread regarding objective measurements for "whatever product" audio, what they can tell you and / or explain what one is or should be hearing based on these measurements, and let others respond accordingly.

 

[Ethan Winer]

It has often been said that people who WANT to hear a difference DO hear a difference, even if there isn't one. Using the same reasoning, is it not possible then that people who DO NOT WANT to hear a difference DO NOT HEAR a difference, even if there IS one? :devil:

Hence the importance of double blind tests. Easy solution, yes?

--Ethan

 

[User211]

So are we all on the same page now?



--Ethan

Definately getting closer, Ethan. Sorry Gordon. I really think this is a good discussion. It is your thread, however. Perhaps we should respect your wishes.