Summits broken in and lovin em!

[IWalker]

Thanks!

As we just finished the Vantages, you will probably see the Summits in our Dec issue. I used to have Apogees too. (Caliper Signatures.) I've owned a lot of panels over the years; Acoustats, Quads, Magnepans, Apogees and some ML too... I currently have the Final 600i's and 1000i's here for review, but I enjoy the Summit the most.

The Final is more of a vintage Quad sounding speaker. Doesn't have the dynamics the ML speakers do.

Saw your system, very nice! Ill try a pair of Essence cords on the Summits too!

What kind of music do you listen to mostly? I only wonder, since I've had the exact opposite impression of the finals vs the Summits. Are you running the finals with a sub? Which one? In my impressions the summits seem to create a "thinner" picture of things, where you get tons of detail but no body...and the finals seem to give a much fuller bodied presentation. I can't listen to a lot of different types of music on the MLs that I now love again on the finals. The comparison I make is with MLs, you look for great sounding music to play on them, while with the finals I listen to music I love and it sounds great.

Interesting impressions...I'll be interested to read your full write-ups.

 

[kirkawall]

The comparison I make is with MLs, you look for great sounding music to play on them, while with the finals I listen to music I love and it sounds great.

I've not heard the Finals but I moved from Quads to the Vantages and I'd say my experience has been the opposite of yours. I find that nearly everything sounds good on the Vantages, from older mono to thrash to remastered jazz to classical to audiophile-approved. The great stuff, of course, sounds great. With the Quads (and to some extent the full-panel CLSZ un-sub'd, though I only had a month or so with that) I spent a lot of time listening to perfect recordings only and missing the rest of my collection. I'd describe the Vantages as a fairly forgiving all-rounder with thoroughbred abilities when required. YMMV, as always. I am curious to hear these Finals given the raves they're getting here.

best,

k

 

[kirkawall]

The comparison I make is with MLs, you look for great sounding music to play on them, while with the finals I listen to music I love and it sounds great.

I've not heard the Finals but I moved from Quads to the Vantages and I'd say my experience has been the opposite of yours. I find that nearly everything sounds good on the Vantages, from older mono to thrash to remastered jazz to classical to audiophile-approved. The great stuff, of course, sounds great. With the Quads (and to some extent the full-panel CLSZ un-sub'd, though I only had a month or so with that) I spent a lot of time listening to perfect recordings only and missing the rest of my collection. I'd describe the Vantages as a fairly forgiving all-rounder with thoroughbred abilities when required. YMMV, as always. I am curious to hear these Finals given the raves they're getting here.

best,

k

 

[IWalker]

I've not heard the Finals but I moved from Quads to the Vantages and I'd say my experience has been the opposite of yours. I find that nearly everything sounds good on the Vantages, from older mono to thrash to remastered jazz to classical to audiophile-approved. The great stuff, of course, sounds great. With the Quads (and to some extent the full-panel CLSZ un-sub'd, though I only had a month or so with that) I spent a lot of time listening to perfect recordings only and missing the rest of my collection. I'd describe the Vantages as a fairly forgiving all-rounder with thoroughbred abilities when required. YMMV, as always. I am curious to hear these Finals given the raves they're getting here.

best,

k

I've not heard quads...so I can't make a comparison. Not that you like this kind of music...but listen to something along the lines of "zoe jane" by Staind, or anything by audioslave, etc...and that's where the thin quality comes out. The beauty of "zoe jane" is in the rich guitar notes, which had exactly zero "body" to them with my MLs. Believe me...I wouldn't be here if I didn't fall deeply in love with MLs at some point...and they are still beautiful transducers...obviously superior to finals for certain people and certain tastes...and clearly superior to any box speaker I've ever heard (haven't heard that much...but have heard some high end Von Schweikerts and B&Ws) ...just found the comparison odd considering my personal observations comparing the finals to the MLs.

 

[Joey_V]

I'd be interested in hearing these Finals... I will play acoustic guitar on them to see what they're made of.

JOey

 

[tonepub]

Well again, having owned Quads in the past and having the Summits side by side with the Final speakers, the Finals have quite a bit less resolution than the Summits, no question.

I would be curious as to what you may be using with the Finals and Summits to draw this conclusion...

I've heard the Summits and the Vantages (and for that matter my old Aerius back when I bought em) on less than phenominal gear and I came away very unimpressed, as these speakers are very revealing of what is behind them.

While I do find the Final a very musical all around speaker, the only music I havent been able to really enjoy on the Summits have been records or CD's that are really poorly recorded. However switching my Premier 350 for my MC275 cuts down the resolution significantly (as well as the dynamics and high end to some extent) making them a little bit more Final-like in presentation.

Musically, I listen to just about everything all the time and honestly, I haven't found anything I would prefer the Finals for.

Again, they are a very pleasant speaker and freinds of mine that have older Quads (I am referring to the original Quad 57 here, the new Quads are another story) they really enjoyed the Final.

I did use the Final sub, but it really is more of a home theater sub. I had the best results running the Finals full range and using my REL B2 crossed over at about 35hz...

As always, this is really personal stuff, so if you are someone that prefers the Final, no harm there! It's just a different flavor of panel!

 

[IWalker]

Well again, having owned Quads in the past and having the Summits side by side with the Final speakers, the Finals have quite a bit less resolution than the Summits, no question.

I would be curious as to what you may be using with the Finals and Summits to draw this conclusion...

I've heard the Summits and the Vantages (and for that matter my old Aerius back when I bought em) on less than phenominal gear and I came away very unimpressed, as these speakers are very revealing of what is behind them.

While I do find the Final a very musical all around speaker, the only music I havent been able to really enjoy on the Summits have been records or CD's that are really poorly recorded. However switching my Premier 350 for my MC275 cuts down the resolution significantly (as well as the dynamics and high end to some extent) making them a little bit more Final-like in presentation.

Musically, I listen to just about everything all the time and honestly, I haven't found anything I would prefer the Finals for.

Again, they are a very pleasant speaker and freinds of mine that have older Quads (I am referring to the original Quad 57 here, the new Quads are another story) they really enjoyed the Final.

I did use the Final sub, but it really is more of a home theater sub. I had the best results running the Finals full range and using my REL B2 crossed over at about 35hz...

As always, this is really personal stuff, so if you are someone that prefers the Final, no harm there! It's just a different flavor of panel!

Absolutely...to each their own! My initial impression was also one of less detail with the finals...but the more I listened and compared...the more it felt like this was the case only because of the "delicate" presentation of the MLs...in which much body was missing. As much as I loved listening to all the details of great recorded music...that's what listening on the MLs became for me....listening to/for details...and really not enjoying the music very much. A lot of music, including the examples I mentioned in the last post, and others that generally aren't considered remotely hi-fi, but are enjoyable nonetheless, were painful to listen to on the MLs (to my ears) because of what I blamed on "poor recording quality." I'm sure the recording quality was poor, but I hear every detail on the finals that I heard on the MLs, yet the presentation is vastly different...and VASTLY more enjoyable. I'm never one to be happy with anything "as is" and was deep into my "Joey-itis"/"upgrade-itis" trying to figure out a way to enjoy the music more. Since getting the finals...I've pared the rest of my system way back, because frankly, it just sounds so great with so little. The fact that my obsessively upgrading nature has now switched over to my other passion, mountain biking...is the greatest praise I can give them. Just strikes the right balance FOR ME of being incredibly enjoyable.

IMO, the "detailed" and "holographic" presentation of the summits and MLs in general has more "wow" factor in auditions...as you have these tangible details to hold onto when looking for points of comparison. Having lived with them for a while, though, I never got out of that reviewer's mentality listening to music...and lost a lot of the enjoyment of just sitting back and listening to music.

I have no experience with the 600s or 1000s (yet...should hear the 1000s soon) and so the comparisons were to the 400is crossed over at 80Hz to a Servo sub and I agree with you on the final sub...I wasn't impressed. The comparisons were done on a full pass (x.1, x.250) system with Camelot Transport and DAC.

Glad you're enjoying the summits! It is interesting to me how truly personal a taste in speakers can be, considering both of our impressions.

 

[IWalker]

I'd be interested in hearing these Finals... I will play acoustic guitar on them to see what they're made of.

JOey

I'd definitely be interested in hearing your impressions as well. As tonepub has made clear...different people are going to have different preferences. There is no "better" speaker...no matter how strongly I prefer my choice! I tend to get caught up in my opinion and sometimes start to treat it as fact Good to have a balancing force!

 

[FireStealth]

IWALKER "I agree with you on the final sub...I wasn't impressed....."


What model Final sub did you hear? S220 ???

What alternative servo sub would you prefer?
(Without going to the big Descent i hopefully)


Regards,

FireStealth

 

[IWalker]

IWALKER "I agree with you on the final sub...I wasn't impressed....."


What model Final sub did you hear? S220 ???

What alternative servo sub would you prefer?
(Without going to the big Descent i hopefully)


Regards,

FireStealth

Yes, the S220. As tonepub noted, it sounded like a "home theater sub" to me as well. The ML Grotto, Depth, Descent are all servo and all sound great (have actually heard these). I'm partial to servo subs over any non-servo ones I've heard...but I haven't heard a lot of quality non-servo ones, like the RELs mentioned above...so I'm sure those do as well. The Velodyne DD series are also servo...and if you have some DIY in you, there's rythmikaudio...where they supply the kit, and you build the box (that's what I have)

The grotto should be going for a song right now, as are the depths...and at the current price point are great bargains, imo. (check audiogon, or your local ML dealer who is getting the new i versions in stock) That's what I'd recommend. The Velodyne's have better EQing built in...but at a significantly higher price point, unless you can find a great deal on ebay.

Other highly recommended "musical" non-servo subs that I haven't heard are made by REL, BagEnd (infrasub-18), AV123 ... and others as well... all good choices.

 

[tonepub]

We are getting the Wilson Benesch sub in in a few weeks to review and I'm pretty excited about that. It features an 18" carbon fiber woofer and a pretty big amplifier.

I've heard a lot of great stuff about it and for 10k, it better be good!

I'll keep you all posted as we go forward!

 

[edwinr]

I've now had a look at 'Tone'. What a great online mag....

 

[tonepub]

Glad you like, new issue up on Aug 5....

Summit review in the December issue.

 

[jtwrace]

Glad you like, new issue up on Aug 5....

Summit review in the December issue.

tonepub,

Are the Summits yours (did YOU pay $11k for them) or are they loaners to just review and give back? OR did ML give you a "trade" discount on them?

 

[edwinr]

tonepub,

Are the Summits yours (did YOU pay $11k for them) or are they loaners to just review and give back? OR did ML give you a "trade" discount on them?

LOL! I reckon you'll need a national security clearance for that answer...

 

[tonepub]

No security clearance, I did buy them at industry accom price. But I won't tell you exactly what that price is per ML... But they made it worth my while and I am very appreciative. Please remember that even though I got a deal, I can get a deal on darn near everything out there (some guys will even give you their speaker to use as their reference) and these are the ones I wanted to spend my own money on. The ML people have been fantastic to work with!

I will tell you this, the Summits are something that if I didn't work in the industry and had to make a deal at a dealer, I would pay full pop for these. They really are fantastic speakers. I've owned almost every other panel made (Magnepan, Acoustat, Quad, Apogee, other ML's) and have tested the Finals (600i and 1000i upcoming) but these really do it for me.

I could not be happier with these speakers. I am crossing them over to a REL B2 at 28hz and I don't even work the sub that much. Am considering a pair of Decents next year or perhaps just another B2, but as is am thrilled with everything in the system. I could stop right here and be very happy indeed!

 

[Joey_V]

I will tell you this, the Summits are something that if I didn't work in the industry and had to make a deal at a dealer, I would pay full pop for these. They really are fantastic speakers.

I could stop right here and be very happy indeed!

Superbly put.

 

[tonepub]

Hey, some of you guys should come up here to the Portland area for the VSAC (Valve state of the art conference) next year memorial day weekend...

It's going to become a mid year challenger to the Rocky Mountain show if all goes well and it will be right in my back yard. Gonna have a few things to do offsite for some of the spouses/girlfreinds/whatever that aren't interested in hifi and TONE Audio will be sponsoring a tour of the used record stores in Portland. (I believe we have about 15 or so...)

Could even have a ML owners club get together at my place the day before or day after if you guys are interested!

Let me know, plenty of time to plan...

 

[yogibear]

Sounds like fun. My sister lives in Portland. What a great excuse for a mini getaway. Please keep us posted.

 

[eknuds01]

Hey, some of you guys should come up here to the Portland area for the VSAC (Valve state of the art conference) next year memorial day weekend...

It's going to become a mid year challenger to the Rocky Mountain show if all goes well and it will be right in my back yard. Gonna have a few things to do offsite for some of the spouses/girlfreinds/whatever that aren't interested in hifi and TONE Audio will be sponsoring a tour of the used record stores in Portland. (I believe we have about 15 or so...)

Could even have a ML owners club get together at my place the day before or day after if you guys are interested!

Let me know, plenty of time to plan...

Sounds like a great idea. I love the West Coast...just gorgeous in the summer time.:bowdown:

Eri