New Member Seeking Opinions/Sanity Checks Regarding Sequel II to ESL15a Upgrade

[Ken Mitchell]

Greetings from Essex UK, this is my first post, hope I am not transgressing any etiquettes by going straight into a question!

I’ve had my Sequel IIs for 32 years but for various reasons they have had only around 7 years of use. I’ve got the Nextel rot but fortunately it’s the dry kind and doesn’t bother me!

The Sequels are driven by my 35 year old Krell KSA 80 and preamp duties are via a 32 year old Audio Research LS1. Both these units have about 9 years use on them. Speaker cables are bi-wired Space-Time Quantum 3s that are like small drainpipes and were easily the best I heard of the several pairs I blind tested back in the very early nineties.

My collection is CD driven via a problematic (blasted drawer mechanism!) Mark Levinson 39. The addition of a Chord Dave & M-Scaler combo last year has completely transformed my sound and I am thoroughly enjoying revisiting albums I thought I knew like the back of my hand and am finding new enjoyment in all of them.

Whilst I’m very content with the Sequel IIs, I often find myself turning up the amps to very loud volumes to make them feel like they have really come alive. I am primarily a rocker and love to hear the great rock bass players driving their bands. I also like 70s synth music, especially when there are Moog Modular bass sequences and I enjoy listening to the great Jazz double bass players as well. I’m not someone who is obsessed about bass to the exclusion of all else, far from it, but the way I hear and enjoy music flows from the bass. My gut says that the next things to upgrade in my system are the speakers and I am looking at the ESL15s.

My listening room has a wooden floor over a cavity. Size is 14.5ft wide and 12.5ft deep. The room has a large permanent opening to a 4.5 ft wide hall and another room on the left. To the right is an open fire place chimney.

The speakers are 99 inches apart and toed in, probably a little less than a third. My listening position is about 99 inches from the speaker centre line, so I have a good, if somewhat small triangle. The room is fairly well dampened with random clobber. Behind the speakers I have stacked cardboard boxes covered with multiple sheets and they seem to do a good job keeping the reflections off the front wall. The speakers are 21 inches from the side walls and 25 inches from the rear walls.

I’ve read every ESL15 review out there, multiple times. My expectations, if I upgrade to the ESL 15s, are a modest improvement in clarity and sound-staging (already sounding very good to me on the sequels) and a substantial improvement in bass delivery and weight via the Class D driven bass cabinets.

If I understand correctly, my Krell should have far less work to do as bass duties will be done by the class D amps.

Now before I go listen to these beasts, I am seeking opinions from the experienced and wise on these forums.

Are my sound improvement expectations reasonable?

Have I made any fatal misassumptions?

Do people think my room is too small? My biggest concern is that the ESL15s (as in the rear most part of the bass cabinet) could be no further out than 6 inches from the front wall. Appreciate this is far from ideal but I am hoping manageable with ARC. I could feasibly have them a few inches further in to the room but I imagine I would have to toe them in to a greater degree.

Would I be better off with small model MLs and Subs?

Cheers all.

 

[Russr]

Considering room dimensions and improved efficiencies of newer panels, you might seriously consider a pair of 11's, maybe with a BF 210 or two. You'll be fighting reflections from the front wall and don't have the real-estate to move the speakers further away from the front wall. You will end up having to toe-in to such an extent you might end up with a REALLY large set of headphones!

I think the 11's panels will be more than enough for uppers, and adding the BF210 subs will give you plenty of SPL in the bass and allow you to really enjoy your bass-centric rock (which I can REALLY relate to!).

All the best - let us know how it goes

Russ

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

You'd probably have better success going down a size, stick huge speakers in huge rooms otherwise they're just going to be choked so close to the walls.

 

[JonFo]

Welcome to the forum!

I'll also suggest going with a smaller speaker if buying new; the 11 is a good model.

However, even with new, I'd also suggest adding a sub given your musical tastes (I'm into Prog rock, so I get it).

However, I suggest that you can vastly improve the woofer in the Sequel by simply using an active crossover for the low end and bypassing the passive XO in the speaker. Several on the forum have done this, like: How to: active bass section

And if what you want is chest-slam, then consider adding an MBM deployment, but note: you must use the right time alignment for this to really deliver, so you'll be adding a miniDSP HD to help achieve that. Same miniDSP could also do the active XO for the sequel woofers to simplify the connections. Here is my detailed write-up on the MBMs I deployed: MBM Deployment

 

[Lightloopy]

Welcome!
The other consideration is the age of your kit. You mention having to turn your amp way up to have things come alive. That's usually a sign of panels that are in need of replacement, especially if they have never been replaced. Same goes for your amp- dried out caps, etc.
You should give a listen to some fresh panels- you may be surprised. Agree w/ matching to your room size. The 11's and 13's are capable of serious bass too. You may not even need a sub. You could also consider replacing your amp with the money you save not getting15's.
Enjoy

 

[TiBoneFramer]

I have 15As in a room much smaller than yours and they ROCK. I also have a pair in a larger room and they rock more but still. I came from Montis expecting only a bigger sound, no, everything was better with 15As. If you have the coin I would get a pair with a pair of BF212 subs and be done for life.

 

[jmcmillanmisc]

Greetings from Essex UK, this is my first post, hope I am not transgressing any etiquettes by going straight into a question!

I’ve had my Sequel IIs for 32 years but for various reasons they have had only around 7 years of use. I’ve got the Nextel rot but fortunately it’s the dry kind and doesn’t bother me!

The Sequels are driven by my 35 year old Krell KSA 80 and preamp duties are via a 32 year old Audio Research LS1. Both these units have about 9 years use on them. Speaker cables are bi-wired Space-Time Quantum 3s that are like small drainpipes and were easily the best I heard of the several pairs I blind tested back in the very early nineties.

My collection is CD driven via a problematic (blasted drawer mechanism!) Mark Levinson 39. The addition of a Chord Dave & M-Scaler combo last year has completely transformed my sound and I am thoroughly enjoying revisiting albums I thought I knew like the back of my hand and am finding new enjoyment in all of them.

Whilst I’m very content with the Sequel IIs, I often find myself turning up the amps to very loud volumes to make them feel like they have really come alive. I am primarily a rocker and love to hear the great rock bass players driving their bands. I also like 70s synth music, especially when there are Moog Modular bass sequences and I enjoy listening to the great Jazz double bass players as well. I’m not someone who is obsessed about bass to the exclusion of all else, far from it, but the way I hear and enjoy music flows from the bass. My gut says that the next things to upgrade in my system are the speakers and I am looking at the ESL15s.

My listening room has a wooden floor over a cavity. Size is 14.5ft wide and 12.5ft deep. The room has a large permanent opening to a 4.5 ft wide hall and another room on the left. To the right is an open fire place chimney.

The speakers are 99 inches apart and toed in, probably a little less than a third. My listening position is about 99 inches from the speaker centre line, so I have a good, if somewhat small triangle. The room is fairly well dampened with random clobber. Behind the speakers I have stacked cardboard boxes covered with multiple sheets and they seem to do a good job keeping the reflections off the front wall. The speakers are 21 inches from the side walls and 25 inches from the rear walls.

I’ve read every ESL15 review out there, multiple times. My expectations, if I upgrade to the ESL 15s, are a modest improvement in clarity and sound-staging (already sounding very good to me on the sequels) and a substantial improvement in bass delivery and weight via the Class D driven bass cabinets.

If I understand correctly, my Krell should have far less work to do as bass duties will be done by the class D amps.

Now before I go listen to these beasts, I am seeking opinions from the experienced and wise on these forums.

Are my sound improvement expectations reasonable?

Have I made any fatal misassumptions?

Do people think my room is too small? My biggest concern is that the ESL15s (as in the rear most part of the bass cabinet) could be no further out than 6 inches from the front wall. Appreciate this is far from ideal but I am hoping manageable with ARC. I could feasibly have them a few inches further in to the room but I imagine I would have to toe them in to a greater degree.

Would I be better off with small model MLs and Subs?

Cheers all.

 

[jmcmillanmisc]

Greetings from Essex UK, this is my first post, hope I am not transgressing any etiquettes by going straight into a question!

I’ve had my Sequel IIs for 32 years but for various reasons they have had only around 7 years of use. I’ve got the Nextel rot but fortunately it’s the dry kind and doesn’t bother me!

The Sequels are driven by my 35 year old Krell KSA 80 and preamp duties are via a 32 year old Audio Research LS1. Both these units have about 9 years use on them. Speaker cables are bi-wired Space-Time Quantum 3s that are like small drainpipes and were easily the best I heard of the several pairs I blind tested back in the very early nineties.

My collection is CD driven via a problematic (blasted drawer mechanism!) Mark Levinson 39. The addition of a Chord Dave & M-Scaler combo last year has completely transformed my sound and I am thoroughly enjoying revisiting albums I thought I knew like the back of my hand and am finding new enjoyment in all of them.

Whilst I’m very content with the Sequel IIs, I often find myself turning up the amps to very loud volumes to make them feel like they have really come alive. I am primarily a rocker and love to hear the great rock bass players driving their bands. I also like 70s synth music, especially when there are Moog Modular bass sequences and I enjoy listening to the great Jazz double bass players as well. I’m not someone who is obsessed about bass to the exclusion of all else, far from it, but the way I hear and enjoy music flows from the bass. My gut says that the next things to upgrade in my system are the speakers and I am looking at the ESL15s.

My listening room has a wooden floor over a cavity. Size is 14.5ft wide and 12.5ft deep. The room has a large permanent opening to a 4.5 ft wide hall and another room on the left. To the right is an open fire place chimney.

The speakers are 99 inches apart and toed in, probably a little less than a third. My listening position is about 99 inches from the speaker centre line, so I have a good, if somewhat small triangle. The room is fairly well dampened with random clobber. Behind the speakers I have stacked cardboard boxes covered with multiple sheets and they seem to do a good job keeping the reflections off the front wall. The speakers are 21 inches from the side walls and 25 inches from the rear walls.

I’ve read every ESL15 review out there, multiple times. My expectations, if I upgrade to the ESL 15s, are a modest improvement in clarity and sound-staging (already sounding very good to me on the sequels) and a substantial improvement in bass delivery and weight via the Class D driven bass cabinets.

If I understand correctly, my Krell should have far less work to do as bass duties will be done by the class D amps.

Now before I go listen to these beasts, I am seeking opinions from the experienced and wise on these forums.

Are my sound improvement expectations reasonable?

Have I made any fatal misassumptions?

Do people think my room is too small? My biggest concern is that the ESL15s (as in the rear most part of the bass cabinet) could be no further out than 6 inches from the front wall. Appreciate this is far from ideal but I am hoping manageable with ARC. I could feasibly have them a few inches further in to the room but I imagine I would have to toe them in to a greater degree.

Would I be better off with small model MLs and Subs?

Cheers all.

 

[jmcmillanmisc]

Ken,

Welcome! Sorry if this first section is repeated. Had an interruption while writing and came back to finish.

I’ve had a pair of Sequel IIs since 1991. I replaced the woofers (DIY) a few years ago due to one side blown but the Mylar is still original.

I would like to refer you to the excellent post on this forum by Kenny G in 2008 regarding recapping. It is still there with pics. Due to timing issues, I did this in phases with the last phase completed this morning. I followed his instructions with a couple of changes…

1. I didn’t worry about exactly duplicating the 270uF cap and went with a 320. No major difference.
2. The last phase was to change all the film caps on the power board. For that I upped the voltage rating from 630V to 850V on all of them. This resulted in improved bass (reset the bass contour to -3dB) and what I would call effortless transparency.

The speakers are still dynamite using modified Crown PL-4 mono blocks but many amps with enough power will do a great job.

In short, I suspect what you describe is due mostly to old electrolytic caps and needing some boost on the power board. This DIY upgrade is not difficult and probably costs about $150. It is well worth it.
I hope this helps and you haven’t yet made a decision.

John McMillan

 

[ltidalgo]

Hi there! first time poster as well and normally stick to lurking but was compelled to comment due to the similarities of our audio experiences. I also bought Sequel II's in the 90's and used an LS1, but my amp was the Bryston 4 NRB - a worthy substitute for the Mark Levinson. My cables were MIT shotgun 750+ and my source was a Proceed CD Player. Like you this was my system for 30 years, but in the last 15 years I put in storage as I raised my kids. I pulled out my system last Summer and was amazed that everything worked perfectly and was glad I invested in audio equipment that was meant to last. One day my CD player stopped working so I went shopping - and that's when the upgrade demons took over. Like a 5 year old child receiving Xmas presents, I started receiving packages from all our favorite audio sites - both new and used equipment. I'm not sure why audio equipment made me borderline insane, but I've definitely caught up on the last 30 years of components by either buying or reading about them. In the last 6 months, I have tried 5 new amps, 1 new pre-amp, 3 DACs, and 2 streamers. The only items that were not upgraded were my MIT cables, - those remain timeless.

To address your concern about upgrading your ML's, I went for the Summit X's - a generation before the 13's. Honestly, you don't need the 15's. Our hearing is too precious at our age and the slightly smaller 13a's will without doubt blow your socks off. Like you, my Bryston sometime struggled to play my Sequels super loud but then I learned how to wash my screens and it was like someone turned on a loudness switch. Next I added dual subs and the sound was unbelievable but i hated all the power cords and looking at so much equipment. With the Summit's the subs were eliminated but when i plugged them in something was wrong. The sweetness of the upper and mid-range that i cherished for 30 years was muffled and sounded like crap. I scoured the internet looking for the answer finding other ML's owners with similar experiences. I concluded that it was my old trusty 1992 Bryston amp, it couldn't drive the Summit's upper range like it could the Sequels. So trust me, if you upgrade to any ESL, you should try a more modern amp designed to drive the impedance of these modern ML's. Today my system consists of the Summit Xs, ARC LS17SE, Qutest DAC, Volumio Rivo streamer, and 2 amps which are currently in a bakeoff because i only want one - the Rogue Audio Stereo 100 and Pass labs xa30.5. Obviously, i didn't buy all brand new but searching for good deals is half the fun. good luck with your adventure and if I'm honest with myself, my old 90's system is still about 80% of what my present system is. Does it matter? It does if it makes you listen to more music.

 

[Ken Mitchell]

Hello All - thanks so much for all your replies, I have read them all and appreciate them.

JonFo, jmcmillanmisc - thanks for those ideas. However, I have zero confidence in myself perfoming tweaks, I can change a plug and a few simple electric fittings like ovens and what not but the thought of changing components in my hifi kit, I just find it hugely daunting and I think I would stress myself out even trying.

Lightloopy - Nice Trans-Am, I have one of those, a 1981 T-Top I am trying to get it back on the road, it's in fairly good condition but has been standing for years, so a lot of rubber and plastic needs replacing. Of course, it's always fun driving a big (by UK standards) left hand drive car on the left hand side of the road! The 1981 is a pussycat compared to the 1977 6.6L I had before (and which my dear, sadly departed, neighbour aptly christened 'The Red Dragon'), but a nice car.

Itidalgo - wow! What a strangley similar journey we have been on!

RussR, Brandon Hartwick, Lightloopy - I think you are probably right! But ...

Okay, I've just (today) pulled the trigger on the ESL15s! Despite the sage advice received here, there was an ex-dem pair for half price just screaming at me, fully guaranteed and returnable. After chatting with the salesman (an American working in Scotland), we agreed that it was worth a try to get these working in my room. If it turns in to a mess, they will go back at my expense.

TiBoneFramer - as soon as I saw your post, I thought I have to give this a go, so if its a disaster - I'm blaming you!

I am hoping the twin digital amps in the ESL15s will lighten the load on my Krell a lot, but I do think the Krell will need re-capping or replacing in the not too distant future.

I will post here, when the speakers are and set-up. Delivery, at my choice is 10 days away, so I imagine it will be 2-3 weeks before I can give meaningful results!

thanks again all