Subwoofer(s) & AVR recommendation

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tarigaad

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All,

I just procured 2 pairs or ML mosaics and 1 Fresco for the center channel. I am attaching my Family rooms layout. It is approximately 24x19X8. It is a fully finished "basement". All Walls (before finishing) are concrete with 70 % of the concerete under gorund and 30 % above ground. The flooring consist of burber carpeting with heavy grade padding. There is one large 3'x5' windows in the room on the top left corner (opposite the fireplace). My HT will be used for 70% movie/tv watching and 30% music (Hip/Hop, Reggae, Rock etc).

I have the following questions and would really appreciate any help that you may provide.

SUB (my budget is $1000);

How may SUB(s) do i need?
What type of SUB(s) Downfiring/Sidefiring?
What brand(s) go well with my setup?
SUB(s) placement?

I heard several ML and DefTech subs (wihtin my budget) at magnolia and wasn't very impressed by either. I do not like SUB(s) that are "boomy". One of the forum members did mention to take a look at PSB Subs.

AVR (my budget is $1000)
I am very very confused with this subject. There are myriads for brands out there with more arriving everyday. I would love to know which ones interact well with MLs. I went with the MLs mainly because of their "transparent" and quality sound.

What brand(s) go well with my setup?


Thank you for your help in advance.

Tarigaad
 

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roberto

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tarigaad said:
All,

I just procured 2 pairs or ML mosaics and 1 Fresco for the center channel. I am attaching my Family rooms layout. It is approximately 24x19X8. It is a fully finished "basement". All Walls (before finishing) are concrete with 70 % of the concerete under gorund and 30 % above ground. The flooring consist of burber carpeting with heavy grade padding. There is one large 3'x5' windows in the room on the top left corner (opposite the fireplace). My HT will be used for 70% movie/tv watching and 30% music (Hip/Hop, Reggae, Rock etc).

I have the following questions and would really appreciate any help that you may provide.

SUB (my budget is $1000);

How may SUB(s) do i need?
What type of SUB(s) Downfiring/Sidefiring?
What brand(s) go well with my setup?
SUB(s) placement?

I heard several ML and DefTech subs (wihtin my budget) at magnolia and wasn't very impressed by either. I do not like SUB(s) that are "boomy". One of the forum members did mention to take a look at PSB Subs.

AVR (my budget is $1000)
I am very very confused with this subject. There are myriads for brands out there with more arriving everyday. I would love to know which ones interact well with MLs. I went with the MLs mainly because of their "transparent" and quality sound.

What brand(s) go well with my setup?


Thank you for your help in advance.

Tarigaad
Hola Tarigaad...If I were you, I would get the Grotto of ML. This particular sub, has a control of the standing waves at 25Hz!...this will remove any boominess that you might get into your room. Also the M.S.L.P. is $1000.00. The volume control would do also a big favor if you have a lot of bass energy. Give it a try...you might like it as I do. It is one of the fastest subs on the marketplace today...and also very user friendly. Happy listening, trust your ears,
Cheers,
Roberto.
 
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Jeff Aguilar

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For subs, I would also look at the SVS subs. They have amazing performace for the dollar. SVS 20/39pc+ cylinder sub for under a $1,000 or you could go with one of their box designs, like the PB12 Plus or spend a little bit more for the PB12 Ultra for $1,199.

If you are ok with black subs and you are willing to go to $1,199, I would get the PB12-Plus/2. It features two 12" drivers in the enclosure. An incredible bargain.

I am running two 16/46pc+ subs in my setup and they sound fantastic.

As far as receivers. I like Harmon Kardon, Outlaw and Denon. I know that Outlaw has a new receiver coming out for $899 that is 7x65 when all channels are driven. That is plenty of power and is probably rated correctly instead of giving a bunch of false numbers. I know that Harmon Kardon does the same thing when giving thier specs.

Jeff Aguilar
 

68sting

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I went with an 18" Velodyne and love it. The 18's not as good on music but for home theater it's incredible. You'll hear notes you didn't know existied when you watch an old movie. I've seen used 15's around a $1000 and would be a little better on music. Circuit City carry's there low end stuff if you really want to save money.
 

SteveInNC

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tarigaad said:
All,


I heard several ML and DefTech subs (wihtin my budget) at magnolia and wasn't very impressed by either. I do not like SUB(s) that are "boomy". Tarigaad
When I was auditioning Ascents, at one point I had the sales guy bring in a Depth to add to the configuration; I listened for awhile and it sounded pretty boomy. The sales guy popped his head in, said that it didn't sound "right" and tweaked the phase setting on the sub. It immediately tightened up and sounded fast and crisp, with no boominess. It's possible (likely?) that Magnolia didn't have the ML sub(s) set up right for their listening room.
 

DTB300

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SteveInNC said:
It's possible (likely?) that Magnolia didn't have the ML sub(s) set up right for their listening room.
This is usually the case in almost all sub demo setups. They crank up the sub too much either in volume or crossover point.

Terrigad...if you go back to listen again, make some changes on the settings of the ML subs and then relisten. When setup correctly the ML subs are not boomy.

Dan
 

Robin

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It takes time and patients for proper bass sounds...

Tarigaad,

Welcome to the greatest ML web-site in exsistance!

I agree with Dan, the ML subwoofer should not sound boomy... :(
The ML subwoofers are simply excellent. However having said that, one must spend some time moving them around to find where they sound the very best in a given room. My Descent is almost in the middle of the room, between my Ascent i's... The trick is to listen and trust your ears, especially during the set-up of an ML subwoofer. Roberto, has spoken before, on this forum, about how live music sounds and is played how it influences the kind of sound we hear... The excellent quality of the ML subwoofers are that they blend so very well, sonically speaking with all of ML's electrostaic speakers. Patients, in adjusting the setting angle, volume and 25Hz level, for what sounds right for your ears is key. :) IMHO, I would highly recommend the ML Depth...

IMHO, I would not recommend purchasing an A/V Reciever. IMHO, I would recommend trying to stay with seporates. Looking back, now I feel, I made a mistake, in prechasing an AVR. The power ratings are not accurate, as they advertize. Especially, when driving ML's, which can go down to one ohm. As many have said, on this forum, 'ML speakers are very revealing', that is extremely true... So, powerful, high current / voltage, high quailty seporates are so very important. 'Trust your ears', and enjoy your, ML Mosaic and Fresco. :D

Good luck and again welcome! :D

Cheers

-Robin
 

roberto

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Robin said:
Tarigaad,

Welcome to the greatest ML web-site in exsistance!

I agree with Dan, the ML subwoofer should not sound boomy... :(
The ML subwoofers are simply excellent. However having said that, one must spend some time moving them around to find where they sound the very best in a given room. My Descent is almost in the middle of the room, between my Ascent i's... The trick is to listen and trust your ears, especially during the set-up of an ML subwoofer. Roberto, has spoken before, on this forum, about how live music sounds and is played how it influences the kind of sound we hear... The excellent quality of the ML subwoofers are that they blend so very well, sonically speaking with all of ML's electrostaic speakers. Patients, in adjusting the setting angle, volume and 25Hz level, for what sounds right for your ears is key. :) IMHO, I would highly recommend the ML Depth...

IMHO, I would not recommend purchasing an A/V Reciever. IMHO, I would recommend trying to stay with seporates. Looking back, now I feel, I made a mistake, in prechasing an AVR. The power ratings are not accurate, as they advertize. Especially, when driving ML's, which can go down to one ohm. As many have said, on this forum, 'ML speakers are very revealing', that is extremely true... So, powerful, high current / voltage, high quailty seporates are so very important. 'Trust your ears', and enjoy your, ML Mosaic and Fresco. :D

Good luck and again welcome! :D

Cheers

-Robin
Hola...I'm going to say something again...of course I agree 100% with Robin and Dan. IMHO, for what you pay for the Grotto, it is a super great value, and also one of the fastest subs on the market. Also, sometimes, the boominess of a sub is due to the user's setted up...too many volume.
Of course, also, the Depth is better, but it cost the double...just give it a try...it won't hurt you and perhaps, who knows, you might like it as I do!!! (and many others).Trust your ears...and enjoy the wonderful sound of ML...happy listening,
Cheers,
Roberto.
 

attyonline

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You have a large room so if you play it loud the Grotto is too small for the space, especially if you like action movies. It is also overpriced IMO for performance when you can get a Hsu or SVS for less money with much more output level and to 20 hz extension with power.
 

roberto

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attyonline said:
You have a large room so if you play it loud the Grotto is too small for the space, especially if you like action movies. It is also overpriced IMO for performance when you can get a Hsu or SVS for less money with much more output level and to 20 hz extension with power.
Hola Attyonline...well, with all respect, perhaps we are talking about different sound, what I do like is quality than quantity...perhaps you are right, if what you are looking for big boom!, not musical instruments...trust your ears, not in the specs!
Cheers,
Roberto.
 
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sakhavi

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Welcome, Tarigaad! My opinion fwiw - amplification is the 2nd most important consideration in a system after the main speakers; I'd be tempted to get a relatively inexpensive sub & maybe squeeze out a few more bucks for the receiver (or used separates). As I've written elsewhere on this forum, I'm a big fan of the receiver concept, and I love my Sunfire Ultimate (though I haven't auditioned many). Just a guess, but with a great room setup like you've got you may well "grow" your system over the years, and it may be worth getting a bit more power now to accommodate what you might end up with down the road.

Have fun shopping & deciding!
 

tarigaad

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Seperates---Hmmmmmm?

I've honestly never even thought about using seperates. Obvioulsy i want quality for the $ (who doesn't). What seperates would be in my price range?
 

attyonline

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Roberto, I know you sell ML, but you do not need to flog its products at every price range. Guess what, it is not the perfect sub for every user, and finally, that does not mean non-users like boom! What a snide remark! Another reason as if more are needed why high end audio is dying. I used the Grotto in a much smaller room than the original poster and found its performance lacking. Output was quite limited below 30 hz. There is better performance out there for your $1000, which led to the Hsu and SVS recommendations. If they boom you set them up wrong, but they will play at high levels below 30 hz which the Grotto demonstrably will not. BTW, I have a complete ML system otherwise but my Velodyne is a far better sub than the Grotto.
 

roberto

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attyonline said:
Roberto, I know you sell ML, but you do not need to flog its products at every price range. Guess what, it is not the perfect sub for every user, and finally, that does not mean non-users like boom! What a snide remark! Another reason as if more are needed why high end audio is dying. I used the Grotto in a much smaller room than the original poster and found its performance lacking. Output was quite limited below 30 hz. There is better performance out there for your $1000, which led to the Hsu and SVS recommendations. If they boom you set them up wrong, but they will play at high levels below 30 hz which the Grotto demonstrably will not. BTW, I have a complete ML system otherwise but my Velodyne is a far better sub than the Grotto.
Hola Attionline...first of all, I´m not selling to anybody here, and it is my liking...and I trust my ears...you like Velodyne, it is OK...but I don´t. It is just my point of view...that is why I always say it is my liking...what I do like...I don´t know if hi-end is dying or not. If the Grotto didn´t work in your room, it is O.K. also. And I know for sure what it is inside of the Grotto and what it is inside of Velodyne...I serviced Velodyne here several times...so my point of view is just that. Please don´t get me wrong here, and if I have offended to you, it was not my intention...please forgive my dare!. Again, all what I said regarding the Grotto is what I liked, and I respect your position...you don´t like it. For me, the control at 25Hz for the standing waves is super great, and is a very good feature that you don´t find in many other brands for the same amount of money. Also I do have ML speakers in my system as you do, and I have them since I met them in ´87...I love ML sound and that´s why I became a dealer here, in Costa Rica...because of their sound quality!!! and for my ears again, still think that the Grotto is a great sub. not just because I sell ML stuff. If you read all my posts, I have never said anything bad of any other brand, never...so don´t give that. Because we are in this club, it is because we believe that ML has something good to offer, and of course we know that the product is not perfect...but we like it, right?
So, if ML is offering good quality subs, Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound thinks so also, and Stereophile has them in recommended components, I think that ML is honest with the price...again, I know what it is inside of many subs on the marketplace. And when I said boom, that´s what most subs give...boom, boom, not the bass player or the bass notes of the musical intruments. As I always said, how many instruments go down to 25 Hz?...only the organ...and not all the notes...as an example of what I´m saying: the pipe organ pedals deepest c1 note = 32.70 Hz and is rarely used, the harp deepest note is a B= 30.87 Hz, double bass tuned last string in E= 41.20 Hz, and the tuba deepest note is Eflat= 38.89Hz. The timpany frequency is higher than 45Hz...perhaps for sound effect is other history, but I´m always talking regarding musical instruments...the other I called it boom!...again, please, don´t get wrong! You have your truth, and I have mine...excuse my dare again...sorry for the snide remark! You can check the chart at this address: http://www.sewanee.edu/physics/Physics120/MusicalScale.html
Happy listening and trust your ears,
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto
 
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attyonline

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Apparently you know nothing about the subs I recommended so you have no basis to flog the Grotto in comparision with them. HP or Stereophile liking it carries no weight with me though dealers like you use it as the gold standard to push sales. I actually listen to something before I make a decision and I hope the original poster gets the chance to do so as well. BTW, your tutorial on the frequency response of instruments was unnecessary as I and most of the participants know these facts. Problem with the Grotto is it can play at 25 hz but only at comparatively low levels. Suggest you read the Noussaine test results which place this sub twenty decibles below comparative models at lower prices. This is disappointing performance for the money. High output and low distortion are necessary for most users unless you are in a small room or listen at low levels. Which means the Grotto is not a good value for many buyers. Velodyne, SVS and Hsu all make superior models IMO and unlike you I arrived at this opinion by listening to all four brands. :)
 

roberto

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attyonline said:
Apparently you know nothing about the subs I recommended so you have no basis to flog the Grotto in comparision with them. HP or Stereophile liking it carries no weight with me though dealers like you use it as the gold standard to push sales. I actually listen to something before I make a decision and I hope the original poster gets the chance to do so as well. BTW, your tutorial on the frequency response of instruments was unnecessary as I and most of the participants know these facts. Problem with the Grotto is it can play at 25 hz but only at comparatively low levels. Suggest you read the Noussaine test results which place this sub twenty decibles below comparative models at lower prices. This is disappointing performance for the money. High output and low distortion are necessary for most users unless you are in a small room or listen at low levels. Which means the Grotto is not a good value for many buyers. Velodyne, SVS and Hsu all make superior models IMO and unlike you I arrived at this opinion by listening to all four brands. :)
Hola Attyonline...I think you are right! please excuse my dare again, perhaps we are talking different things here...again, if I offended you with my liking, please excuse me! It was not my intention to do that...but I assure you, that everything is here in Costa Rica, all brands that you like are away only between 10 to 20 minutes of driving. It is good to know that you use different ways and different media to measure the goods. Also, I have in my workshop all the electronic tools that are needed to do such tests, and sometimes what we do is to comfirm them and see if we have the same results that some magazines reports...please I appoligize for any inconvenient that I have cause to you. Thank you for the lesson,
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.
 

Robin

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A conversation with Tom Noussaine...

I found this on the, "AVS forum" archives, quite interesting and informative.
It was like, Tom Noussaine was, AVS forum's, speacial guest, scheduled at a spacific date and time, on the forum. Mr. Noussaine, ansewered questions and, talked with AVS forum membership, check it out:

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/history/topic/39249-1.html

Cheers

-Robin
 

C.A.P

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picking a sub is like picking a wife , some times you have to go through a few to find what suits you LOL . In all reality subwoofer decision and placement are one of the hardest things to accomplish with the fast response of the Logans , some rooms will excite bass frequencies others wont I have had subs that demoed outstanding at the dealer showroom and sounded like mud in my room, and some subs that I did not like and was told to try out and ended up liking alot, hence is the case right now , I realy didnt like the Sunfire True sub at a demo several years ago , however a friend had one laying around and I started to play with it and realy do like it with the logans, it has a steep 36db x-over and is very articulate with tight fast bass, it has its pitfalls like all subs, but the good definately out weigh the bad in my room. : I did use 2 inch shock feet to support it and stop any hopping on the wood floor ,it tightend it up too!!! will I keep it I dont know!!!
as Roberto said "trust YOUR EARS" and demo a few!!!! :cool:
 

LaserMark4

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attyonline said:
Velodyne, SVS and Hsu all make superior models IMO
I also vote thumbs-up for these three. I am a one tune, broken record, sold out loyalist for ML. But I think subs are one speaker that warrants deviating from ML sound based on sheer cost to performance (is that grounds for excommunication on this site).

I mean an SVS sub (PB12-ISD/V) that can deliver an anechoic 20 Hz at 100+db indoors (with 3 port tuning to go lower), with good to great musical ability, all for only $699..... man, you'd be hard pressed to find better sounds and values.

I would also throw in the Outlaw LFM-1 to check out, of which a PAIR (2) can be had for $999.
 
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