What Do You Think Of The ML Website? Is It Good, Or Full Of Marketing BS?

[User211]

I was just reading the Soundlab website, and quite liked the printed content. Compared to the obviously much more polished ML website, I thought it was relatively free of marketing BS. But then, doesn't BS make the world go round (i.e. politics?).

So, what are people's feelings on this one...? Not just from the marketing spiel, but from any angle you like.

I'm sure the folks at ML would be interested to see the responses...

If this question has been asked in the past, I'd say this thread is still relevant as the website constantly evolves.

It's just possible your input might have some effect on it's future presentation.

 

[Rich]

Personally, I hate the ML website. For many reasons.

I find it very slow to navigate. If I want to see the specs for a particular speaker, I have to click through multiple, slow-loading pages to get to it. The menu system could be much more user-friendly.

I also find the initial message that pops up regarding buying from an authorized dealer to be very annoying and off-putting.

I find the resources available on the site to be almost non-existent. Where are the faq's explaining how to properly place and setup their speakers and subs? Where are the spec sheets for their discontinued speakers. Considering that ML speakers last for decades after they are discontinued, and are continuously traded on the used market, you would think ML would provide some basic information on these speakers to its customer base.

Finally, their pictures are awful. They show a lot of improper setups and they don't do a great job of really showing off the speakers themselves and certain attributes of them. For instance, the main picture of the motif center channel shows a setup where two motifs are placed vertically for the main left and right channels. Well that gives vertical dispersion from the floor to the ceiling, but no horizontal dispersion at all! It is the antithesis of the reasoning behind curving the esl panel in the first place. It is inexcusable that they put this picture on there as if this were an acceptable setup for this speaker.

Marketing BS is fine and I understand their need to do that. But a website can and should provide so much more than that. ML's fails miserably in that regard.

 

[FISH_MAN]

there website leaves a lot to be desired. for one I am with you Rich the pics really suck! you really can't get an idea of how cool their product is from them their pics. also they sort of hint that you must be rich with a huge house to own a pair and this is not true. I also agree that the pop up is a little putting off all they need at the bottom is a little red one liner on the bottom of every page or something like that . it does have some nice points though just remember what the great Albert Einstein once said everything is relative just compare it to the Magnepan website lol that thing is horrendous!

 

[eknuds01]

Personally, I hate the ML website. For many reasons.

I find it very slow to navigate. If I want to see the specs for a particular speaker, I have to click through multiple, slow-loading pages to get to it. The menu system could be much more user-friendly.

I also find the initial message that pops up regarding buying from an authorized dealer to be very annoying and off-putting.

I find the resources available on the site to be almost non-existent. Where are the faq's explaining how to properly place and setup their speakers and subs? Where are the spec sheets for their discontinued speakers. Considering that ML speakers last for decades after they are discontinued, and are continuously traded on the used market, you would think ML would provide some basic information on these speakers to its customer base.

Some of the spec sheets are here:

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/literature/manuals_historic.html

Those are pdf links to the old manuals. I didn't check them all, but you could look at some technical data for the older models.

My old Aerius i manual has a brief technical discussion on room acoustics (standing waves and whatnot) and also a little bit on speaker placement. I opened the Monolith III manual and they do talk about toe/in out and some general guidelines for speaker placement.

Finally, their pictures are awful. They show a lot of improper setups and they don't do a great job of really showing off the speakers themselves and certain attributes of them. For instance, the main picture of the motif center channel shows a setup where two motifs are placed vertically for the main left and right channels. Well that gives vertical dispersion from the floor to the ceiling, but no horizontal dispersion at all! It is the antithesis of the reasoning behind curving the esl panel in the first place. It is inexcusable that they put this picture on there as if this were an acceptable setup for this speaker.

Marketing BS is fine and I understand their need to do that. But a website can and should provide so much more than that. ML's fails miserably in that regard.

I don't think the website is that terrible. Rich brought up some good points, though. For the exacting audiophile, the pictures aren't all that great. I think it would be nice to have a separate section on the website devoted to speaker placement and setup. Maybe they could include several practical examples - large room, small room, tall ceilings, etc. The manuals aren't a bad place to start, but having some good info on the website could be very helpful especially if someone purchases some used models and doesn't have the original literature.

Personally, I don't find the navigation to be all that bad. But I am not a web page designer. After going to the homepage, you just click over to products and move the mouse over to ESL and the Design line and you are where you want to be.

Maybe another thing that could be highlighted is the Customer Service Section (Jim Power). Maybe posting some customer feedback and stories about how Jim helped fix someboody's 20 year old ML speaker is a good idea? I think that sort of thing shows a committment to their customers and is also a testament to ML's longevity - you can hang on to these things for years!

 

[Irishtom]

The site had the information I needed as a new buyer of MLs; prices, specs and technical details, some of which are marketing BS. Note that details for using the speakers, placement and such, can be found in the owner's manuals on the site.

As for the site being all about marketing, well yeah, that's it's purpose. Whaddaya expect?

 

[lhpcope]

OK, I looked at the SL web site and I have to say I like it better. I find I can get the information I'm looking for faster and not feel like I'm in a car dealership.

Two issues I have this the ML web site are first of all the pictures. I can see some poor guy trying to explain to his wife why they need to work on the room acoustics and having the pictures on the ML web site pointed out to him as proof that he doesn't need to spend any more money.

The second thing is why does everything have to have a special name? Why is it that the planer magnetic drivers they OEM have to be "ATF", advanced thin-film drivers? That gives me that car dealership feeling as well.

This all seems to point out to me that marketing is running the show at ML, not engineering. That seems to be reversed at SL based on the two web sites.
:devil:

 

[tonepub]

OK, I looked at the SL web site and I have to say I like it better. I find I can get the information I'm looking for faster and not feel like I'm in a car dealership.

Two issues I have this the ML web site are first of all the pictures. I can see some poor guy trying to explain to his wife why they need to work on the room acoustics and having the pictures on the ML web site pointed out to him as proof that he doesn't need to spend any more money.

The second thing is why does everything have to have a special name? Why is it that the planer magnetic drivers they OEM have to be "ATF", advanced thin-film drivers? That gives me that car dealership feeling as well.

This all seems to point out to me that marketing is running the show at ML, not engineering. That seems to be reversed at SL based on the two web sites.
:devil:

If "marketing ran the show" at ML, they wouldn't have produced the CLX and they wouldn't continue to make panels for the CLS.

The Sound Labs speakers are a great product, but pretty unknown. They could use some good marketing guys...

 

[Dreamer]

I would tend to agree with most of the posts on this topic. The ML website is slow, a little knlunky to navigate, and doesn't have enough "practical" pictured of the speakers. I mean, I love the artsy-fartsy close-ups of the ESL panels as much as the next guy, but when I'm trying to show some friend who is new to ML's what their new speakers look like, their web site is pretty much useless, because on some of the models, there isn't a single picture of a pair of them, full-view,sitting in a room. It's sort of tough to show them how much more sleek and sexy the new ones are (compared to my Stonehengelike Sequels) whenthe only photos on the website are odd-angle closeups of the panels...

And the "buzzword marketing" stuff is a little annoying to us "veterans". I'm sure that to someone who is new to electrostatics, their website is full of dazzling information, with all sorts of proprietary technology etc. but to those of us who know and love ESL's, and understand the technologies, it gets a little old...

I'd like to see a more streamlined interface, thumbnails of each product in the product navigation area, and better "practical" pictures in the galleries, like various speakers in various room settings. I mean it's sort of difficult to sell the whole "increased SAF" to your sweetie when she can't see a picture of these sleek new speakers actually standing in a room...

Please, Martin Logan, throw us a freakin' bone...

 

[lhpcope]

To TonePub's point. ML uses the trickle down theory of product development, as do a lot of companies. In order to pull that off requires at least one flagship product to trickle the technology down into the lesser product lines from.

And as for the replacement panel availability for legacy product, that's just good customer service, especially when ML knows of the limited life expectancy of the panel. Its now probably a profit center for them.

A company can be marketing run and still want to provide excellent customer service, and have a forward looking approach to their operation.

My point is that I would rather drive a Porsche than a Buick all else being equal. I would also rather blow by the salesman in a car dealership and spend time in the service department.

 

[twich54]

My point is that I would rather drive a Porsche than a Buick all else being equal.

I can appreciate that, unless of course it's my neighbors highly modified '87 GNX that will easily smoke 99% of the Porches out there in the 1/4 mile ! yeah I know sooner or later 'ya gotta turn left or right ! LOL !

I would also rather blow by the salesman in a car dealership and spend time in the service department.

of course.......you're driving the Porsche !!!

 

[Irishtom]

My point is that I would rather drive a Porsche than a Buick all else being equal.

Not from Chicago to Florida with the Old Lady and the kids.

 

[Steve]

I can appreciate that, unless of course it's my neighbors highly modified '87 GNX that will easily smoke 99% of the Porches out there in the 1/4 mile ! yeah I know sooner or later 'ya gotta turn left or right ! LOL !




of course.......you're driving the Porsche !!!

You're assuming the road is straight...

(sorry, off topic, but I couldn't resist

 

[amey01]

I'm with Rich on this one -

+ Slow to navigate
+ Annoying to navigate with stupid popups, etc.
add to that:
+ It's not intuitive at all - I get sort of "lost" there......

All up, hate it! Where's the KISS principle?

I just had a look at Soundlab and while obviously it is not as polished (as you say Justin), overall I like it better. It is more intuitive, simpler and at least everything is in one spot - no clicking through multiple pages and tabs (pet hate).

 

[amey01]

If "marketing ran the show" at ML, they <......> wouldn't continue to make panels for the CLS.

They have to - they have no choice. Even if Marketing did run the show, how do you think they would market/sell any speakers if people knew their $10,000 speakers would be throw-away in as little as five years? Fact is, they wouldn't. Panels are effectively a "consumable", and yes, it is also no doubt a good little profit centre for them as well.

The Sound Labs speakers are a great product, but pretty unknown. They could use some good marketing guys...

Very true.

 

[JonFo]

... Panels are effectively a "consumable", and yes, it is also no doubt a good little profit centre for them as well.


...

I'm not so sure about them being a profit center, up until this year, they were actually a great value.
The fact that they still make them for models going back 20 years is astoundingly good service.

And changing the critical sound generating component every 12 to 15 years is not quite in the 'consumable' category, at least not to me.

Most dynamic speakers desperately need their woofers or midranges replaced at that age as well, but few rarely do it.

 

[JonFo]

I’d have to agree with the general sentiment that the site could be improved.

Like too many sites, some of the navigation is too ‘cute’ or poses usability challenges like pop-out, drop-down menus that go away if you are imprecise in your aim.

I have nothing against the ‘marketing’ orientation, that’s what the site *needs* to be.
It should draw in new people and reinforce to new owners the awe of their wonderful products.

Us jaded veterans have the MLC to do everything else in

But I wholeheartedly agree about the damn pictures!

As Rich already pointed out, the one photo that makes me go nuts every time I see it, is that three Motif setup on the wall, where two of them are placed vertically, that’s bordering on the immoral in my book

The fact that one rarely sees a pair setup, and few of the setups are even close to realistic, much less ideal is a shame.

Here’s an idea: How about they pick select owners real-world setups (and with their permission) and include them in a gallery section.
Some members on the MLC have nice-looking setups that show off the product well, and demonstrate the kind of ecosystem they usually find themselves in.
Problem is, getting professional-level photos of them. But hey, for a few bucks, they can hire a local photog to come in and do a pro-level round of pics.

Otherwise, the graphics are nice, the pages are generally well laid out and the copy is reasonable.

 

[timm]

If "marketing ran the show" at ML, they wouldn't have produced the CLX and they wouldn't continue to make panels for the CLS.

The Sound Labs speakers are a great product, but pretty unknown. They could use some good marketing guys...

HA!! Great point!! -- I don't mind the marketing - I don't mind the 'fancy' names for everything... Who cares? Do they sound good? Can you go to the website and learn a bit about the speakers? I'm all right with the website... Now, I've actually designed websites in the past - so, maybe I look at it a bit differently and may be a bit tainted in my views...

 

[lhpcope]

of course.......you're driving the Porsche !!! [/QUOTE]

LOL! OK you got me there!:ROFL:

It seems like time to uncork a bottle and spin some vinyl!:music:

 

[amey01]

Here’s an idea: How about they pick select owners real-world setups (and with their permission) and include them in a gallery section.
Some members on the MLC have nice-looking setups that show off the product well, and demonstrate the kind of ecosystem they usually find themselves in.
Problem is, getting professional-level photos of them. But hey, for a few bucks, they can hire a local photog to come in and do a pro-level round of pics.

Not a bad idea - I'd be using this guy's system. No idea who he is - don't think he's part of our community though. Don't even remember how I came to know of the pictures, but I love that room!

 

[User211]

And the "buzzword marketing" stuff is a little annoying to us "veterans". I'm sure that to someone who is new to electrostatics, their website is full of dazzling information, with all sorts of proprietary technology etc. but to those of us who know and love ESL's, and understand the technologies, it gets a little old...

I agree. Dropping the marketing terms for the ESL line would probably be a good idea. At this level, they aren't generally selling to a bunch of fools - more like a group of serious audiophiles who are pretty clued up. Why do I think they will not do so, though?

This is pretty interesting. Many here use room treatments to dampen the rear wave, but no one has ever raised the fact that ML present it as an enhancement.

Long quote time:

"True dipole speakers, such as electrostatic panels, have long been noted for their near-ideal radiation patterns. They send very little sound to the sides, thereby minimizing side-wall reflections with short arrival times that tend to interfere with perception of the direct sound. Their strong rear radiation, however, produces a generous amount of ambience-enriching later-arriving reflections off the wall behind them."

However, Soundlab do not think it's always a good thing, and actually manufacture a rear wave damper.

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/accessories.htm

I also love this ESL explanation. It's brilliant - really concise - and no BS! I guess I'm more BS allergic than most because I am an engineer, and a large proportion of my work requires me to have BS detectors on at absolute max - otherwise people can (many hundreds, in fact), quite simply, die if the job isn't done properly overall. Things relax a bit when posting on MLOC, though

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/tech_princ.htm

And the Soundlab FAQ is very good, too.

http://www.soundlab-speakers.com/faq.htm

So overall, I find the Soundlab website massively quicker, better written, relatively BS free, more direct, more truthful, and more informative. But a lot less glam.

ML's UK site still thinks the Summit is a current model, and has Summit X pages too. Keep it up-to-date, kids!

I agree with the photo comments - and had to take the pee of the Summit X on another thread...

And to those who say "I am not qualified to comment because I am not a web designer" I say noooooooo....

It's the web designer's job to satisfy the end user. The designer may think it's great (and probably does), but if the end users don't think so, he has, quite simply, failed.

But putting it all into context, I have seen far worse web sites. But I do get the feeling of having to "wrestle" with the ML one a bit.

Adam - not sure but that room does look familiar. Sure he was a member, but couldn't find the system and gave up after a while... maybe he moved onto Summits or something...