The Thing about Analog is the Analog Thing

[tonepub]

If I had a large trust fund eating a hole in my pocket, I would have the Bentley that I reviewed three issues ago not an 87 BMW with 200 thousand miles.

The truth of the matter is that even at the discounted prices I've recieved from manufacturers as a reviewer, I've spent more on my three systems than my house cost.

The reason I've done that is because I take my job seriously.

We've done more than our share of reviewing gear at all price points. Every single issue of TONE has one highlighted piece of budget gear, every single issue has a piece of cool vintage gear and I even scour EBay and local garage sales to find recievers for forty bucks.

What you fail to realize is that sometimes we have the luxury of asking a mfr what they would like reviewed, and sometimes they want to send you the newest (or the most expensive), because that is where they would like to focus at any given point in time.

We try our best to try and get gear from all over the price spectrum. Our readers surveys have shown that we have a lot of people with systems in the 10 to 30 thousand dollar range, but we also have quite a few readers in the 100 to 250 thousand dollar range. (actually a lot more than I ever expected)

While I try very hard not to question or attack other reviewers, I felt that the Positive Feedback review of the Modwright player was flawed with the statement that it sounds as good as other ten thousand dollar players. If you'll notice, Robert Levi had no ten thousand dollar players to compare the Modwright player to when he wrote that review. When we had the player here I had the Meridian 808 and the Wadia 581 (both of which I had owned at the time), along with the Metronome player and the Nagra player costiing about 14. Truth be told, this is why Dan Wright stopped advertising with us, because he was mad that I woudn't say his modded Sony was better than the more expensive players.

If you sat down and listened to the Modwright on my reference system side by side with either of these five figure players, with EVERYTHING else being the same (power cords, interconnects and software), switching back and forth between input one and two, the difference would be readily apparent.

This doesn't mean Modwright makes bad or inferior products, they don't.

But as much as so many of you would like us to find giant killer products, it's irresponsible writing for us to constantly make comments about how the inexpensive stuff outperforms the best stuff the industry has to offer when it doesn't.

I started the reviewer thing with the same attitude as many of you have. I was going to expose the truth and find all those giant killer components that Stereophile and TAS don't have the guts to write about.

The truth I found is that "the point of diminishing returns" is a lot higher than I ever dreamed it was. And I'll defend that to the end.

I still prefer the Ayre player over the Modwright player for three thousand dollars. I think it sounds more tonally correct than the Modwright. That's my opinion and you can take it or leave it. I went to 70 live performances last year, amplified and acoustic. I listen to live music at musicians houses all the time. You can either take my advice or ignore it, it's up to you.

As for the Oppo, it's a great budget player, but it does not have the refinement of the Ayre or my Naim for that matter. Another reason I chose the Naim as a reference player, was because I felt after all the CD players I had the chance to audition, it not only offered up the most musical presentation I'd ever heard from a CD player, it would probably end up being more musical and resolving than 90 percent of what's out there, hence making it an excellent reference tool.

While some of this hobby is about price and performance, some of it is about long term value as well. Every year we give two unknown manufacturers a shot and review gear that may not be around tomorrow. Guess what, after three and a half years now, none of them are still in business.

So what if your new kid on the block preamp sounds 5 percent better than a CJ, BAT, ARC or McIntosh if the new kid isn't in business three years from now? Same thing with a heavily modded piece. That's your call to make, but the more modded stuff I've seen, the more discouraged I am with it.

We are working on a review right now on a modded Wadia i Dock. It sounds good and definitely a little better than the stock unit, but whol knows what will happen long term? Personally, I like the Channel Islands approach better, because he just makes an upgraded power supply that you just plug in.

What some of you really fail to grasp is that Yes I do have access to a LOT more gear than you do. That's why I publish a hifi magazine. I have three great systems that are bought and paid for, not on loans like most of the other guys at the other magazines have to do to keep their jobs. It doesn't make me better or worse, but it does give me an advantage because Im not dependent on when a mfr is going to ask for their gear back.

It also means I'm not trying to keep gear around here for my system. It's here to evaluate and send back.

We are doing this because we are trying to help our reader find a great music system at whatever price range they might be interested in. And again, I think we have reviewed enough components at all price points that I feel very good about that. With our new website on the way, we will have the opportunity to review even more gear this year and we will expand the range as we go along.

That's the best I can do. Either you find value in what we have to say or you don't.

 

[MiTT]

I've about had enough of your clueless, obnoxious, condescending remarks.

PPS: i truly think you are a ****!

I'd encourage a little civility SundayNiagara. While you're certainly free to disagree with anyone here I believe it can done with integrity by all.

I do believe that it's very possible to get a very good sounding inexpensive turntable too, but I'd like to hear more about the point you are trying to make with a little less vitriol or the personal remarks that aren't germaine to the information I'd like to think you are trying to communicate to the group.

Can you elaborate?

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Where the modders miss the mark is that top shelf digital is a holistic approach, just like analog. It's a system. Just slapping some better caps and a tube output stage into a modestly priced deck will make it sound better, but so much of it is attention to the small details that cost money.
For my money, I'd much rather have an Ayre CX-7e than a Denon that someones modded. Better resale and Ayre is a great company that's been around for a long time and will continue to support their products.

Also, Ayre makes it a point to make all of their stuff backwards compatible. They've got a new upgrade on the horizon that will be a minimal update charge (and extended warranty) to current CX-7e and CX-5 owners. That's why the resale of Ayre (or other major mfrs. stuff) holds its resale better than the modded gear.

When I considered upgrading my digital front end from a Rega Apollo to something else there were several recommendations to go the modified route. Initially checking into this it seemed like the way to go. But I just had this nagging feeling in the back of my mind if it would really be "The" way to go. So after listening to a few cd players and talking with my local dealer it came down to long term support if something goes wrong and resale in the future if I decided to upgrade. Now having owned the Ayre cx-7e for a while and just having read of the new upgrade for this model that Ayre will be doing for the c5 and c7 I feel even more confident with my desicion. I would most likely have been satisfied with a modded player over my Apollo (not that it was a bad player by no means), but for the long run,me personally, I would have wished I had bought the Ayre or its equivalent when all the money was laid out. So my point is, that what Jeff is describing are some of the same thoughts and discussions that me and my dealer had, and that was what made the difference for me. Now whether I prefer my Ayre over my turntable....well.......I like them both!

P.S. I wanted to add a thank you for all of those who did suggest the modified players since it did give me more options on choices. You guys are the best!!:rocker:

 

[David Matz]

While I try very hard not to question or attack other reviewers, I felt that the Positive Feedback review of the Modwright player was flawed with the statement that it sounds as good as other ten thousand dollar players. If you'll notice, Robert Levi had no ten thousand dollar players to compare the Modwright player to when he wrote that review. When we had the player here I had the Meridian 808 and the Wadia 581 (both of which I had owned at the time), along with the Metronome player and the Nagra player costiing about 14. Truth be told, this is why Dan Wright stopped advertising with us, because he was mad that I woudn't say his modded Sony was better than the more expensive players.

If you sat down and listened to the Modwright on my reference system side by side with either of these five figure players, with EVERYTHING else being the same (power cords, interconnects and software), switching back and forth between input one and two, the difference would be readily apparent.

This doesn't mean Modwright makes bad or inferior products, they don't.

But as much as so many of you would like us to find giant killer products, it's irresponsible writing for us to constantly make comments about how the inexpensive stuff outperforms the best stuff the industry has to offer when it doesn't.


The truth I found is that "the point of diminishing returns" is a lot higher than I ever dreamed it was. And I'll defend that to the end.

While some of this hobby is about price and performance, some of it is about long term value as well. Every year we give two unknown manufacturers a shot and review gear that may not be around tomorrow. Guess what, after three and a half years now, none of them are still in business.

So what if your new kid on the block preamp sounds 5 percent better than a CJ, BAT, ARC or McIntosh if the new kid isn't in business three years from now? Same thing with a heavily modded piece. That's your call to make, but the more modded stuff I've seen, the more discouraged I am with it.

We are working on a review right now on a modded Wadia i Dock. It sounds good and definitely a little better than the stock unit, but whol knows what will happen long term? Personally, I like the Channel Islands approach better, because he just makes an upgraded power supply that you just plug in.

What some of you really fail to grasp is that Yes I do have access to a LOT more gear than you do. That's why I publish a hifi magazine. I have three great systems that are bought and paid for, not on loans like most of the other guys at the other magazines have to do to keep their jobs. It doesn't make me better or worse, but it does give me an advantage because Im not dependent on when a mfr is going to ask for their gear back.

It also means I'm not trying to keep gear around here for my system. It's here to evaluate and send back.

We are doing this because we are trying to help our reader find a great music system at whatever price range they might be interested in. And again, I think we have reviewed enough components at all price points that I feel very good about that. With our new website on the way, we will have the opportunity to review even more gear this year and we will expand the range as we go along.

That's the best I can do. Either you find value in what we have to say or you don't.

Jeff,

Great post! I agree with everyone that personal tastes do matter. I rarely find any two people who agree about anything 100%. Nevertheless, do you think some of the confusion about rave reviews of inexpensive or budget gear is that if it is reviewed in less transparent systems than the ML systems we have, it sounds good? A cynical analysis would suggest the reviewers are looking for continued advertising dollars.

Also, I understand you send your gear back promptly after reviews. It seems that WP, JV, MF, JA, and others hold on to it for a while and pass it around to the magazine family. One can come up with a cynical analysis of this practice also. What's the industry standard time period range for reviewers to hold on to a piece of gear?

Thanks

 

[David Matz]

Getting back on topic, what is the analog magic? Can one describe in words? Must one experience it?

Also, does the ritual itself, which seems to be painstaking, help contribute to the enjoyment? (Marines love the Marine corps after they go through hell with fellow Marines, fraternity brothers put newbies through hazing, etc..)

 

[Dreamer]

This was a REALLY interesting, enjoyable, and enlightening thread until it began to devolve into a veiled classist flame-out against people who can't (or won't) spend five or six figures on an analogue front end.

OK, Jeff, I love your posts, and I REALLY respect most of your opinions, but now you've just gone WAY too far. Now, bro, you are stepping into the haughty, delusional, snarky, classist land of Michael Fremer and his ilk, and I'm OFFICIALLY calling you out on it.

It does take a fairly expensive analog combo to do this and it also takes one that is perfectly set up as MiTT mentioned earlier. And above all, it does take a good pressing.

Jeff, You are a VERY astute writer, and I trust your golden ears implicitly, but I think you're sort of off-base on this one.

If you are talking about an analogue setup that beats a top-end digital rig (like Wadia, or Burmeister, or Ayre, et.al) then maybe you are right. But for those of us who LOVE music, and enjoy our gear, but who can't afford a digital front-end that rivals a 1957 Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing Coupe in price, this opinion about analogue is just simply not true...

It IS possible to have really sweet-sounding analogue that rivals or surpasses digital. I've got about $1500 in my digital front end, and maybe $600 in my analogue front end, and on some records, my TT sounds better than CDs. It's all about tweeks, setup, and the quality of the source media when it comes to squeezing the most out of vinyl.

There are two ways to get great sound out of vinyl. You can throw thousands of dollars at a pre-engineered solution, or you can grab a soldering iron, a screwdriver, and spend some time in a woodshop or machine shop, and, for a fraction of the price, re-engineer off-the-shelf components to make gear that gets you 90% there. If you are REALLY skilled and obsessive, you can custom-make a TT that will outperform ANYTHING out there, at any cost,and still do it for a fraction of the cost of the "big ticket" brands.

The people who go out and drop 5 or 6 digits on a top-end VPI HRX or a Caliburn, or whatever, are NOT, IMO hobbyists. They are deep-pocketed collectors. Many of these people don't know the first thing about making a decent solder joint, or how to work a multimeter, or what "phasing" really means, or what jitter is all about, or wouldn't know where to start when pulling a dedicated 20-amp line from their junction box, but they spout off all sorts of audiophile press buzzwords like they are some sort of audio-techo experts.

I have VERY little time in this hobby for desk-jockey, buzzword-spewing, Franklin-Covey indexed Zenga-wearing wankers who think just because they have no limit on their credit card that they are somehow qualified to issue pronouncements about what is and is not "good" in audio reproduction. What I respect in this hobby is NOT the price tag on someone's system--it's how GOOD their rig sounds. And if it sounds great because of mods they have done themselves, or things they have built with their own hands, then my respect only increases.

You are a very astute writer, Jeff, and a very competent reviewer. I have no doubt that you really DO "get it" when it comes to good sound, and from what I've read, you actually DO have some skills "at the bench". For that I salute you, because in my experience, in this hobby, you are a rare bird indeed. But I am also sad for you, that you seem to think that your readership is comprised mainly of that class of oligarchical sociopaths who actually BELIEVE this sort of classist spew, and that you feel the need to come across as though you feel the need to cater to their sick, sociopatic mentality.

The sad fact is the majority of the people who actually own this sort of uber-high-end analogue gear are NOT hobbyists. They are deep-pocketed collectors. There's nothing wrong with that--the industry needs unskilled but wealthy wankers with REALLY deep pockets and little time, motivation, or skill who are willing to purchase these "flagship" units rather than take off-the-shelf stuff and tweek the shit out of it themselves. It's this sort of capital infusions from unskilled, covetous sources that keeps technology moving forward.

But please don't confuse these "collectors" with true "audio hobbyists". The REAL innovation in the audiophile world does not come from the guys who have a 6-digit turntable sitting in his 10 million dollar townhouse. They come from tweekers, geeks and machinists--guys who are working with their hands and their minds and their hearts--guys who are taking the REAL risks working with lathes and dangerous chemicals, and risking lead exposure breathign solder fumes, and have rough hand and dirty fingernails and faded Levis and 10-year-old Chevrolets. The REAL breakthroughs in the Audio world (and in ANY technology) come from the very people who these oligarchical sociopaths would never even acknowledge if they bumped against them in the street. And that, brothers and sisters, is sad, sad, sad...

The disconnect here is that modestly priced digital has increased dramatically in quality in the last five years. My example of this would be the Ayre CX-7e or the Rega Saturn to name two.

Anyone who considers a piece of audio gear (like an Ayre CX-7e) that costs more than a year's tuition to an average State university to be "modestly priced" is simply delusional, out-of-touch, and classist bordering on Oligarchical. Maybe to the "silver spoon" crowd, a $3000 bit of audio bling is "modest", but to 97% of the rest of America, that is a rather extravagant expenditure.

And to insinuate that to get better sound than that you need to spend TNT HRX type dollars is a "disconnect" of the most classist type. I suppose if an audiophile has no mechanical, electronic, or manual skills, and has no fundamental understanding of basic science, physics, and mechanics, then maybe they DO have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a turntable that sounds worth a damn. But an audiophile who possesses all these skills can EASILY build a TT that will rival the "big boys" for under $1000 in materials and a week's worth of honest, skilled labor. But I guess to most people who can afford a Clearaudio Statement, those qualities and skills are as foreign as changing their own child's diapers...

I suppose next you'll be telling all those families of the laid-off employees of Caterpillar, Pfizer, Sprint Nextel, Home Depot, and Texas Instruments that they can just let their children eat cake, when they can't afford bread anymore.

I would suggest that people who buy into this mentality invest in a good shotgun and some well-trained dogs, because as of Monday in the USA, there were ANOTHER 70,000+ people who are on the streets, ****ed as hell, and HIGHLY skilled, creative, and motivated. And they couldn't give a rats ass how much better you think your laminated acrylic platter sounds than the cast-aluminum and plastic POS they have does.

But they DO care that those "modest" "reference rigs" were purchased with their ransacked retirement funds...

 

[MiTT]

Getting back on topic, what is the analog magic? Can one describe in words? Must one experience it?

Also, does the ritual itself, which seems to be painstaking, help contribute to the enjoyment? (Marines love the Marine corps after they go through hell with fellow Marines, fraternity brothers put newbies through hazing, etc..)

Well I can only speak for myself...

I don't really enjoy the ritual involved with setting up a turntable. I don't detest it either, it's just necessary. I'm pretty much a set it and forget it kind of guy. I will occasionally tweak my VTA on a given LP, but with my tonearm that's a very easy thing to do in real time on the fly. I do try to check my set up visually and even so far as to pull out my Geodisc and stylus force gauge a couple of times a year, usually when I'm doing other system maintenece like cleaning my connectors.

I do rather enjoy the ritual of spinning a record. I like pulling it out of the sleeve, giving it a quick dry clean, queing up the stylus and dropping it in the groove. Contrary to the differing point of view Justin and I have regarding vinyl "noise", I really enjoy it when I can put on an LP for someone who isn't used to vinyl and un-muting my phono stage. It blows folks away when the music starts from as quiet a background as my Escoteric universal player. People seem to expect that vinyl will be noisy, with lots of surface noise and clicks and pops. While all of that CAN be present on some LP's, it certainly isn't the norm on my setup with my albums. I enjoy playing a lot of material for folks that I have on both vinyl and a digital format, partially because I often get questioned about which one is playing - is that the CD or the LP? Usually the very first thing that the un-initiated say is "It's just so quiet".

What is the analog magic? Well to me the magic is in the sound of things, the location of things and in the way music propigates and decays.

These effects are most realized to my ears when I listen to jazz and classical music, so I'm going to speak in those terms. It doesn't imply that they don't hold true for all forms of music, but I tend to notice them more when instruments are acoustic in nature and you have some expectation about the size of the ensamble and acoustic space where the musical event is taking place. I love Nine Inch Nails, but I always know I'm listening to heavily modified electronic music recorded in a studio and manipulated in a mixing board and computer. I don't expect to know how Trent is moving across the stage, I know there isn't one and I don't care.

With those forms of music where I do care however analog reveals more clues for me about what is happening. I feel more connected to the act of music making and that draws me deeper in. The sound of things seems more like listening to a real instrument. If I'm listening to someone playing an acoustic guitar I can usually discerne more clearly what type of guitar, what type of string, whether the performer is using a pick or not, even the mechanics of play; is it an upostroke or a downstroke. It's not to say that I can't hear those types of things on my digital rig, just that they are more apparent to me from my analog rig. I have on occasion heard something on vinyl, then gone back to listen for the same detail on CD. Sometimes it's more obvious to me when I listen again on digital and I don't know if it's because I'm listening specifically for that detail or that I just didn't percieve it previously. Other times I'll go through that exercise and I truely and simply can't hear that detail at all or with reduced effect on the CD.

The location of things is one of the more easily discernable on my current setup. With my analog rig I have better localization of instuments or voices within a soundstage that is deeper, wider and better defined than when listening to the same piece on my digital player. On classical music especially I can localise the different sections of the orchestra better, the width of the stage where they are spread out and the overall depth quite well. My esoteric does a very good job at this too, but here's where the anaolg setup outshines it. With the right recordings I can discern individual rows within the violin section, and occasionally, individual instruments within those rows. It's truely a hair raising experience when you're listening to massed strings to not hear just notes played in unison, but to hear individual instruments playing individual but identical notes played in unison - and that is when the moment of suspending disbelief is most pronounced.

The propigation and decay of notes aids in this effect. When I hear a trumpet played back via CD I can always tell it is a trumpet, but when I hear the same cut on my analog rig I am usually presented not just with the sound of a trumpet, I am presnted with a sound that is more obviously that airy "blat" emminating from the bell of an instrument that then perpetuates out spherically from that bell. The reverberation and reflection of those sounds then give me the aural clues regarding the location of the instrument with respect to the stage and the size of the venue. Precisely because those sounds propigate as I've described above I get a better feel for what the instrument is, where it is on the stage and how large the acoustic space is. The decay of notes only further amplifies this awareness. With my digital setup decay seems more truncated, especially as amplitude is reduced. We've all heard the famous Telarc "Bass Drum " whacks I'm sure. When I play "The Firebird" through my esoteric the drums are certainly realistic and startling, especially on the attack. But if I listen to the same piece on the LP the attack component is no less pronounced, perhaps even a bit more dynamic sounding, but as the notes decay and fade away I am left listening longer. I can feel the skin still vibrating and resonating until it either decays away to nothing or is physically dampened by the musician (also more pronounced).

These are difficult things to characterize and I don't know honestly if I can do them justice, but it's an attempt at any rate.

The easiest way to demonstrate the differences of course is to just play both and let the listener judge for themselves. That's why I have a standing offer for any of our membership to come by for a listen themselves if you're around and judge for themselves with their own ears.

 

[Dreamer]

Tim, if you REALLY love the experience of listening to music that much then why not spend your money listening to REAL live music performed by REAL live musicians. That way, you KNOW that what your are hearing is accurate.

Why not just admit that the entire concept of recorded music playback, even in the most high-end, over-the-top systems is a pitiful, pale shadow of what happens in a live performance, and just spend a few thousand dollars on an "OK" system that will "get you by" between REAL concerts?

The real question here is, is our interest in this hobby motivated by genuine interest in improving and optimizing the technology of accurate musical reproduction (in which case, I doubt that even 5% of the people on this or ANY audiophile forum have a technical or experiential foot to stand on).

Or it is something else, like pride, or satisfaction in belonging to an exclusive club to which the majority of the unwashed public may never aspire?

There are hobbyists, and there are collectors. We must each ask ourselves which one we are, and be honest enough to own our motivations...

--Richard

 

[wrat]

This was a REALLY interesting, enjoyable, and enlightening thread until it began to devolve into a veiled classist flame-out against people who can't (or won't) spend five or six figures on an analogue front end.

OK, Jeff, I love your posts, and I REALLY respect most of your opinions, but now you've just gone WAY too far. Now, bro, you are stepping into the haughty, delusional, snarky, classist land of Michael Fremer and his ilk, and I'm OFFICIALLY calling you out on it.



Jeff, You are a VERY astute writer, and I trust your golden ears implicitly, but I think you're sort of off-base on this one.

If you are talking about an analogue setup that beats a top-end digital rig (like Wadia, or Burmeister, or Ayre, et.al) then maybe you are right. But for those of us who LOVE music, and enjoy our gear, but who can't afford a digital front-end that rivals a 1957 Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing Coupe in price, this opinion about analogue is just simply not true...

It IS possible to have really sweet-sounding analogue that rivals or surpasses digital. I've got about $1500 in my digital front end, and maybe $600 in my analogue front end, and on some records, my TT sounds better than CDs. It's all about tweeks, setup, and the quality of the source media when it comes to squeezing the most out of vinyl.

There are two ways to get great sound out of vinyl. You can throw thousands of dollars at a pre-engineered solution, or you can grab a soldering iron, a screwdriver, and spend some time in a woodshop or machine shop, and, for a fraction of the price, re-engineer off-the-shelf components to make gear that gets you 90% there. If you are REALLY skilled and obsessive, you can custom-make a TT that will outperform ANYTHING out there, at any cost,and still do it for a fraction of the cost of the "big ticket" brands.

The people who go out and drop 5 or 6 digits on a top-end VPI HRX or a Caliburn, or whatever, are NOT, IMO hobbyists. They are deep-pocketed collectors. Many of these people don't know the first thing about making a decent solder joint, or how to work a multimeter, or what "phasing" really means, or what jitter is all about, or wouldn't know where to start when pulling a dedicated 20-amp line from their junction box, but they spout off all sorts of audiophile press buzzwords like they are some sort of audio-techo experts.

I have VERY little time in this hobby for desk-jockey, buzzword-spewing, Franklin-Covey indexed Zenga-wearing wankers who think just because they have no limit on their credit card that they are somehow qualified to issue pronouncements about what is and is not "good" in audio reproduction. What I respect in this hobby is NOT the price tag on someone's system--it's how GOOD their rig sounds. And if it sounds great because of mods they have done themselves, or things they have built with their own hands, then my respect only increases.

You are a very astute writer, Jeff, and a very competent reviewer. I have no doubt that you really DO "get it" when it comes to good sound, and from what I've read, you actually DO have some skills "at the bench". For that I salute you, because in my experience, in this hobby, you are a rare bird indeed. But I am also sad for you, that you seem to think that your readership is comprised mainly of that class of oligarchical sociopaths who actually BELIEVE this sort of classist spew, and that you feel the need to come across as though you feel the need to cater to their sick, sociopatic mentality.

The sad fact is the majority of the people who actually own this sort of uber-high-end analogue gear are NOT hobbyists. They are deep-pocketed collectors. There's nothing wrong with that--the industry needs unskilled but wealthy wankers with REALLY deep pockets and little time, motivation, or skill who are willing to purchase these "flagship" units rather than take off-the-shelf stuff and tweek the shit out of it themselves. It's this sort of capital infusions from unskilled, covetous sources that keeps technology moving forward.

But please don't confuse these "collectors" with true "audio hobbyists". The REAL innovation in the audiophile world does not come from the guys who have a 6-digit turntable sitting in his 10 million dollar townhouse. They come from tweekers, geeks and machinists--guys who are working with their hands and their minds and their hearts--guys who are taking the REAL risks working with lathes and dangerous chemicals, and risking lead exposure breathign solder fumes, and have rough hand and dirty fingernails and faded Levis and 10-year-old Chevrolets. The REAL breakthroughs in the Audio world (and in ANY technology) come from the very people who these oligarchical sociopaths would never even acknowledge if they bumped against them in the street. And that, brothers and sisters, is sad, sad, sad...




Anyone who considers a piece of audio gear (like an Ayre CX-7e) that costs more than a year's tuition to an average State university to be "modestly priced" is simply delusional, out-of-touch, and classist bordering on Oligarchical. Maybe to the "silver spoon" crowd, a $3000 bit of audio bling is "modest", but to 97% of the rest of America, that is a rather extravagant expenditure.

And to insinuate that to get better sound than that you need to spend TNT HRX type dollars is a "disconnect" of the most classist type. I suppose if an audiophile has no mechanical, electronic, or manual skills, and has no fundamental understanding of basic science, physics, and mechanics, then maybe they DO have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a turntable that sounds worth a damn. But an audiophile who possesses all these skills can EASILY build a TT that will rival the "big boys" for under $1000 in materials and a week's worth of honest, skilled labor. But I guess to most people who can afford a Clearaudio Statement, those qualities and skills are as foreign as changing their own child's diapers...

I suppose next you'll be telling all those families of the laid-off employees of Caterpillar, Pfizer, Sprint Nextel, Home Depot, and Texas Instruments that they can just let their children eat cake, when they can't afford bread anymore.

I would suggest that people who buy into this mentality invest in a good shotgun and some well-trained dogs, because as of Monday in the USA, there were ANOTHER 70,000+ people who are on the streets, ****ed as hell, and HIGHLY skilled, creative, and motivated. And they couldn't give a rats ass how much better you think your laminated acrylic platter sounds than the cast-aluminum and plastic POS they have does.

But they DO care that those "modest" "reference rigs" were purchased with their ransacked retirement funds...

Very Well said!

 

[MiTT]

And to insinuate that to get better sound than that you need to spend TNT HRX type dollars is a "disconnect" of the most classist type. I suppose if an audiophile has no mechanical, electronic, or manual skills, and has no fundamental understanding of basic science, physics, and mechanics, then maybe they DO have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a turntable that sounds worth a damn. But an audiophile who possesses all these skills can EASILY build a TT that will rival the "big boys" for under $1000 in materials and a week's worth of honest, skilled labor. But I guess to most people who can afford a Clearaudio Statement, those qualities and skills are as foreign as changing their own child's diapers...

But they DO care that those "modest" "reference rigs" were purchased with their ransacked retirement funds...

WOW Dreamer, there's quite a lot of stuff to digest in there. I personally think there IS a lot of good inexpensive gear out there, and NO, we don't all need to invest a small fortune to get good sound. We all have to sensibly spend what we can afford to achieve the best we can.

But to make a general statement that imlpies that anything expensive is inherently evil and void of merit seems just as off base as what you're postulating about Jeff's comments.

I've been a product development guy all of my professional career. I've designed mainstream consumer products as well as cost no object exercises in state of the art assaults. There are SO many factors and compromises that go into both ends of the spectrum that they simply aren't worth talking about using the same vocabulary.

I'll tell you this based upon my professional experience, most of the Big Boys can't buy the materials that go into their higher end offerings for the $1000.00 you suggest, much less be able to manufacture it and make a profit. Is it possible to make a $1000.00 turntable, yes, very much so, lots of people do it. Can a skilled hobbyist make a great $1000.00 turntable, I bet that they could. But when you sit down and do a real comparison against a $10,000.00 turntable I believe that I could identify the major strengths and shortcomings of each pretty readily.

Another thought. I'm an ok woodworker and machinist. I can run an end mill and a lathe. I probably know as much about finishing process as anybody on the board, or any manufacturing process for that matter. I'd like to think that I'm a damn good product designer, and my employeer seems to reinforce that twice a month. I've built hundreds of functional models and prototypes over the span of a 35 year career. But I've only once built a piece of audio gear - a Hafler DH-500. Loved the process, enjoyed it for years. My current system doesn't include ANY gear I've made or done significant mods to myself. Your post would imply because of these attributes that I'm not a serious member of the community and not to be taken seriously when sharing my thoughts. I don't think your conclusion is necessarily supported by your premise.

 

[tonepub]

that's a good post (from dreamer a few posts up) and it does make some excellent points, especially about the hobbyist part of the equation.

But I can't use hobbyist made or modded gear as a reference component, because all of you can't go to a dealer or a friends home, hear it and draw your own conclusion.

And if you want to call me elitist, that's fine too, but the reality for me is that when CD players go from 200 dollars to 100 thousand dollars, $3000 is now a modestly priced player in my book. It's the same with hifi in general.

Back in the mid 80's I had a system that consisted of all "Class A" components in Stereophile. I had a pair of Acoustat 2+2's, an Oracle Delphi 2 table w/SME arm, a Dynavector Ruby Carat cartridge, Krell Preamp and Threshold power amp. (CD's had just hit the scene and I had that awful sounding Denon player, but I'm not counting that in the mix)

Back then, that whole system was probably worth about $15k at retail and by doing some smart used/trade in shopping, I had $9k in my system and was on top of the world. Today, you can still buy a great system for $9k, but it's a different ballgame. And that system I had back then would still be a fun, musically involving system to play music on.

However, you are missing my point. You don't have to spend five figures on an analog front end to listen to or enjoy music. But you won't get the sound of an SME 20 (or insert your favorite turntable here) without spending the money, and unless you are a crack machinist with the access to the best tools and materials be able to make a decent turntable.

SME spends most of their time making parts for F1 racing teams. They have far better equipment and personnel than most. (they also can repair everything they've made over their fifty years of existance)

To me the hobby thing really doesn't count, because it's one off stuff. It's just like restoring cars, etc. If you want to take a 35 year old Porsche (or Camaro, again it doesn't matter) and restore it over the course of years and then claim it's better than a new one that's your call. But as Jay Leno and Jerry Seinfeld (as well as countless other people I know that restore cars for a living) have both told me, if you don't spend 2-3 times the cost of the car restoring it, you probably won't do a good enough job.

While I've built my share of amplifiers and speakers over the years and had fun doing it, it's not my cup of tea. Again, call me elitist, but I've heard my share of garage built gear and if you think on your best day you can make a better preamp than the guys at Audio Research (or BAT, CJ, Mark Levinson, whatever) then go to it, it's a free country.

The great thing about the hobbyist aspect of audio is that if you have more time than money, you can put together a decent system for low cost.

What you're really selling short though is the people that have taken the time to seek out top quality components and assemble some fantastic music systems. From what I've seen, this forum has a better share than most. I see a lot of Summits, Spires, ARC REF, Aesthetics, etc., among the listed components and room photos.

So these people are all "Wankers with big credit card balances?"

I don't think so.

Most of the ones that I've met are just like me. Audio and music is a passion and an obsession that they've chosen to invest a very disproportionate amount of their time and income on because they really enjoy it. I could easily have four nice Porsches in the garage (if I had a garage that big) for what I have tied up in hifi. Or a lot of other things, but it's my priority.

What this boils down to is the ongoing struggle of the people that don't have the top shelf gear always wanting to claim that the ones that do "have more money than brains", or "don't know any better" blah blah.

What's really unfortunate is that you're missing the point and you haven't been listening to what I've been saying all along. Just because you aren't as obsessed as I am with this stuff, doesn't mean your passion is any less and it doesn't mean you haven't put together a musically satisfying system.

My job is to report and as much as I hate to agree with Mikey, "don't shoot the messenger" still applies.

And yes, I've gotten a bit spoiled with the access to the gear that I currently have in my reference system, but I've been sitting here listening to a pair of Magenpan 1.6's with a Rega integrated for the last two weeks and it's pretty darn good. Between the four systems I have here and the other 15 systems of my staff, we've got everything from the most bargain basement stuff to some of the most expensive stuff there is.

And what you are also missing is that I really don't care how much the stuff costs. But the difference is that I've had a lot of time to listen at every price point, and I'm sorry but the best (and often times very expensive) gear that these mfrs have to offer almost always outperforms the budget gear.

So in the end, to me a $3000 dollar CD player is still a moderate product in the world of high end audio. I write about high end audio, not mass market audio. It's all relative. We can't be everything to everyone.

I think guys that spend five figure sums on golf clubs are crazy too, but again, if that's where your passion lies good for you.

I wish Bentleys were less expensive, but they cost what they cost. And if you want that experience you have to pay the money. The Bentley I got to drive for four days this summer was fantastic, and way beyond the experience of an M5, AMG Mercedes or Audi A8. I'll never be able to have a Bentley unless Rolling Stone buys TONE someday for an 8 figure sum, but that doesn't make the Bentley any less awesome of a car.

But it doesn't mean I can't have a blast sliding around corners in my 20 year old BMW that probably isn't worth 2500 bucks on a good day. (and yes, I've modded it with better suspension, a chip, exhaust, etc. etc. but that doesn't make it a better car than a new M3, it's just what I can afford)

That's the point I'm trying to make and I don't know how to express this in a way that is not viewed as condescending by some.

Again, that's why I have different reviewers with different levels of systems and expertise. As publisher, I've made it a point to try and be the Harry Pearson if you will, investigating more of the very high end gear. Our classical writer, Dan Babineau also has a big bucks system like me and because of his years in the hifi world as an engineer, has forgotten more about turntable setup than I know. Fortunately, he's taught me a lot and is my go to guy when I get stuck.

Randy Wells is the Magnepan guy on the staff and has spent years getting his system to the point it is now, probably in the 40k range.

Marc Phillips is more of an off the beaten path guy and has a system worth about 20k, but a huge soft spot for budget gear.

Our resident hermit Jerald O'Brien is the tinkerer on the staff and his house is a shrine to vintage fisher, McIntosh and Dynaco gear. Just like his vintage BMW 2002 tii, he's always tinkering on something. He's the budget gear expert, but the two of us always enjoy doing the dumpster dog thing. It was actually his idea for the "Slummin" column in the first place.

And our newest reviewer, Rich Kent came from this forum. He's the guy who let me listen to his CLS's last issue. He's got a great system and a great room, so I asked him to join the team. I think he's going to be a fantastic addition to the staff.

While you'd like to call me out as being elitist, let me remind you that I've reviewed plenty of gear in the $1000 - $4000 category over the years as well as things like the Advent 300, the Channel Islands DAC, etc. etc. and I still keep tinkering with the SL-1200 in search of the ultimate performance in the budget turntable arena.

I'd also like to point out that in almost four years of publishing TONE, we have never called any product "The best". If you look at the last five years of Stereophile covers, they've done it repeatedly.

We've also kept our editorial vision very clear for those four years. We don't tell you one CD player (or speakers, preamp etc) is the best, only to tell you next issue that now there is a "new best" or better yet tell you that the 15 thousand dollar CD player we told you was the best last issue is now BS, and all you need is a gen 1 play station.

Just so you have it clear, here's my hope for anyone reading TONE:

1. It helped you find a couple of new pieces of music to listen to.

2. It helped you find a piece of gear to seek out and audition that will work in your system, regardless of what your budget is.

3. If both one and two have failed, at least you thought the cartoon was funny.

I know we are accomplishing that. TONE is just a resource that gives you useful information or not. You know what my perspective is and I think I've been very transparent about that.

But just to make it clear:

1. I do feel that you can have a musically satisfying system at any price point, but like anything, the more time you spend in the listening chair, what you and I both deem musically satisfying will probably slide upwards the more you listen and upgrade.

2. I prefer gear made by established manufacturers. I still believe that a reputable company that has been in business for a number of years has more engineering talent at their disposal to make better and more reliable gear than the little guys. That being said, we are always on the lookout for the next Audio Research, because they started in a garage too.

But if I'm going to stick my neck on the line and tell you to buy something, I feel a lot better about that if I know you can get that product serviced five years from now, because most of you don't go through equipment like underwear.

3. I don't believe in the "giant killer" mentality. Good parts, engineering and product support cost money. While there are a few coach built products out on the fringe that are charging huge premiums for limited edition things, it's a tradeoff. Again, using ModWright as an example, when Dan Wright was making preamps in his basement, the 9.0 was a 1500 dollar preamp. It was a great box and I owned one for a couple of years. Now that Dan is a legitimate mfr, with a building, major parts inventory and employees to feed, guess what? The 9.0SE is now $4000. Hmmmm.

4. The top products that these guys have to offer is a truly amazing experience and I do feel that the point of diminishing returns is pretty high. Personally, I think it's a pretty linear progression from $1000 up to about $100K (this will vary upon how many software formats you are trying to support).

5. I really think this can be a lot more fun than some of you are making it. I don't expect many of you to be as obsessed as I am and that's fine. If you go back and examine the posts I've made here and on other forums, I'm not out there telling people they don't get audio if they don't have a five figure turntable or CD player.

Marc and I always have the running discussion about "What would be in your system if you only had $4000 to spend?" or "what kind of hifi would you have if you only had a 10 x 12 room?" To that end, we will be focusing more on systems at various price points as we go forward.

I've spent a lot of time posting about very affordable gear and I've even fielded quite a few emails, PMs and phone calls from a number of you. Have I given bad advice?

So in the end I do not view this as a class struggle. You can make it that if you want it, but that's not how I see it. We are merely a source of information. You either agree with our perspective and get some benefit from it or you don't. We aren't taking money out of your pocket or cutting down any trees or flushing printing press waste into the water system to promote our agenda.

 

[MiTT]

Tim, if you REALLY love the experience of listening to music that much then why not spend your money listening to REAL live music performed by REAL live musicians. That way, you KNOW that what your are hearing is accurate.

Well, I do actually, fairly often.

Why not just admit that the entire concept of recorded music playback, even in the most high-end, over-the-top systems is a pitiful, pale shadow of what happens in a live performance, and just spend a few thousand dollars on an "OK" system that will "get you by" between REAL concerts?

It is, I agree. But that doesn't mean that either I or anyone else here doesn't discerne real differences between those systems regardless of how feeble they are when compared to real live music. They are two different things. I go listen to live music as often as my mood, budget, schedule, location etc. allow. I also listen to my music at home based upon the same drivers. I would never suggest that they are the same activity though, nor do I expect them to deliver the same results or enjoyment.

The real question here is, is our interest in this hobby motivated by genuine interest in improving and optimizing the technology of accurate musical reproduction (in which case, I doubt that even 5% of the people on this or ANY audiophile forum have a technical or experiential foot to stand on).

I cannot say for anyone but myself.

Or it is something else, like pride, or satisfaction in belonging to an exclusive club to which the majority of the unwashed public may never aspire?

Or perhaps it's really something less sinister like I just enjoy this hobby. Most people don't get it, but it doesn't really matter because they likely have their own hobbies that I just don't get. I work with folks down in Atlanta that are SERIOUS NASCAR fanatics. I don't get it. Watching a bunch of folks make a left hand turn for 3-4 hours just doesn't appeal to me. I would never dream of insinuating that they were better or worse than me simply because they enjoy something that I don't - we're just different.

There are hobbyists, and there are collectors. We must each ask ourselves which one we are, and be honest enough to own our motivations...

--Richard

Well OK, I believe I'm a Hi-Fi hobbiest and a music collector. Now what?

 

[Dreamer]

As an artist, and an audio geek I respect and appreciate gear like the ClearAudio Statement and the Continuum Caliburn. They are beautiful pieces of sculpture, stunning examples of engineering, and delightfully geeky samples of the machinist's art. It is thrilling to me as an audiophile and an artist to think that there ARE people out there who appreciate such fine products of the craftsman's hands enough to pay premium prices for the prestige and honor of owning such fantasticworks of art.

The point I was driving at wasn't that they aren't worth their price. They are. They are essentially one-off works of art--they are sculpture that just so happens to have as a side benefit, the ability to very accurately play back recorded music from LPs. And the highly skilled craftsmen that make them deserve to be compensated for their time, their artistic vision, and their astounding skills.

Their price, I maintain, has very little to do with their performance compared to the incremental increase in performance they have over a TT that is 1/100th their price, and a WHOLE LOT to do with the fact that the purchaser of such a piece is getting a nearly unique work of art in the bargain.

I think THIS fact is often lost in the high-end press and among super-high-end audio gear collectors. A Caliburn is NOT making music that is 100 times more accurate than a Rega P-1. It's barely a few percent better, even to the ears of the most "golden eared" reviewers. Those few percent of realism are worth it to some people, ESPECIALLY if you are the sort of person who can't attend live performances because you are so high-profile that being seen in public might be some sort of security risk. I get that. But I also get that there is a class of people who are so far removed from the reality of modern life that they believe that their own, personal enjoyment of recorded music (which is, itself, a synthetic reality) is so important that it justifies spending more that many people in this country make GROSS in 5 years, on a machine to play a recording media that is over 100 years old.

I think that we should support craftsmen and artisans. As an artist, I am fully in support of appropriate remuneration for quality works of art and craftsmanship. But as a HUMAN BEING, it seems more than a little bit insane that any conscious, awake person could actually spend $100,000 on a record player and not consider it an obscene extravagance bordering on the sociopathic...

I also get, as an artist, that time has value, and I especially understand that highly skilled labor, artistic vision, and the ability to create objects with cutting edge looks and performance are VERY valuable skills, and deserve to be rewarded appropriately.

I have no problem with a manufacturer that makes "statement" or "flagship" gear. I like looking at it, reading the reviews, and sometimes being lucky enough to actually listen to it in shops, as much as anyone on this forum.

I also am honest enough to understand that in an economic environment where millions of people are teetering on the edge of abject poverty, hundreds of thousands have recently become unemployed, and tens of thousands of our elderly have recently been told that their "nest eggs" are gone in a puff of smoke, and ALL these things are directly due to the sociopathic avarice of the very people are buying this sort of gear with money stolen from honest hard working people, it's a little disingenuous to call $3000 cd players "modest", and to make statements like Michael Fremer made when he called the Caliburn "a bargain".

Its not that I think such products are bad or evil (BTW, I NEVER said that such expensive items were inherently evil--go back and review my post carefully, MiTT). And I don't think that people who buy such things are, by their purchase, made inherently evil or bad. The problem I have is the attitude that if you CAN'T afford such gear, you are somehow either not "truely" enjoying your musical playback, or the implication that people who won't justify such purchases are somehow incapable of grasping the subtle nuances of "analogue magic".

The REAL magic here, fellas, is the magic of the craftsman who makes such beautiful works of visual, mechanical, and sonic art, and the truly "black art" of the marketers who convince these ultra-deep-pocketed collectors to part with their blood-stained largess.

The owners of companies like ClearAudio and Continuum, and Halcro, et.al. have, through their vision, drive, craftsmanship, AND their very astute understanding of the sociopathic psyche of the "post-modern nobility", quite literally, turned base materials into gold. They are the artists/alchemists of the 21st century. And THAT is the "true magic" of ultra-high-end gear.

Because, you see, these pieces of gear are essentially ephemera. They are beautiful, but they are "industrial art", NOT true art. Nobody will hang them in the Louvre. People will not line up by the thousands to view them, gazing ecstatically into their beauty with tearful eyes. They will NOT be preserved painstakingly for centuries, so that future generations will be able to enjoy them, because they are NOT really "art". They are tools, equipment, bits of industrial ephemera that will pass into the shadows of time and ultimately end up in a recycling bin like so many other pieces of aluminum, acrylic, and steel.

Ultra-high-end audio gear is, when you really get down to it, an obscene exercise in vanity, a psychotic tribute to a fundamentally flawed technology, and a grandiose paean to a synthetic reality that is only a dim shadow of reality, and as such are the ultimate statement of the false reality in which the people who can afford such gear live.

This sort of gear is, in reality, a monument to the sociopathy of the mega-rich, a beautifully macabre dance of lifeless material attempting to approximate the love, passion, and joy of REAL life experience. It is a painfully sad allegory for the never-ending but unattainable struggle of the "nobility" class to attain basic, true joy through the flawed synthetic reality in which they encase and insulate themselves.

Recorded music is a lie.

To pursue THAT to its "purist" form is to chase a ghost, and is a goulish, psychotic quest.

Sometimes, I believe time is better spent listening to the rhythmic, subsonic purr of my cat as I scratch her ears, or sitting around a campfire flailing out baudy nautical songs with my friends. At least I know that THOSE sounds are true, in the truest sense of the word...

 

[jtwrace]

Mitt

I want to build my own TT. I've been thinking of some designs...

Does anyone have any ideas? material, bearing....

I was thinking of doing it out of aluminum. Thoughts?

BTW-I went with Solidworks. Works well but very different then what I'm used to. Now that my sub is done, this could be the next thing..

 

[DTB300]

Tim, if you REALLY love the experience of listening to music that much then why not spend your money listening to REAL live music performed by REAL live musicians. That way, you KNOW that what your are hearing is accurate.

Accurate? I have heard some really poor live music. But I understand where you are coming from as great live music is something to hear.

EDIT: So if I am at a club listening to some live music and I am sitting 3rd row center is this accurate? If I then move to the side of the stage and listen - the sound has now changed - is this accurate? I then move to the back sitting at the bar - and again the sound has changed - is this accurate?

For me I do not care how accurate as I am there to hear the music irrelevant to the quality - though better sound does add to the enjoyment - obviously

Why not just admit that the entire concept of recorded music playback, even in the most high-end, over-the-top systems is a pitiful, pale shadow of what happens in a live performance, and just spend a few thousand dollars on an "OK" system that will "get you by" between REAL concerts?

I believe we all know that we are playing back recorded music and we are at the mercy of the recording staff and their final product. But it is the ability to sit back and enjoy music independent on live or recorded.

But like Tonepub stated each of us has our own way of spending money on whatever hobby we like.

For some friends of mine and "OK" system as you stated is $200 and the few thousand dollar system is just crazy to them. But yet these same people will spend the same money on their hobby that they consider crazy for audio people to spend. It is all up to each of us.

The real question here is, is our interest in this hobby motivated by genuine interest in improving and optimizing the technology of accurate musical reproduction (in which case, I doubt that even 5% of the people on this or ANY audiophile forum have a technical or experiential foot to stand on).

Doesn't this point more to the recording engineers and/or companies that make the equipment and not the end audio user? I can only achieve so much with audio playback based on what is presented or given to me to use or playback.

Or it is something else, like pride, or satisfaction in belonging to an exclusive club to which the majority of the unwashed public may never aspire?

I do not see it as an exclusive club, but a hobby I enjoy and something I can spend my hard earned money on. It really does not matter what anyone else thinks about it as I could care less. My audio setup is here to please me, not others.

There are hobbyists, and there are collectors. We must each ask ourselves which one we are, and be honest enough to own our motivations...

Hi, my name is Dan, and I am a Hobbyist.

 

[tonepub]

You really don't get this at all.

A budget turntable for 1/100th the cost of the Continuum is just that. If you had the opportunity to listen to both, side by side on a highly resolving system, you'd be able to hear it instantly.

And yes while the Continuum Criterion (the $60k one we reviewed ) is a piece of art, it does not resolve that much more music than a decent table from SME or a few others in the $15k range and we said so in our review. We also pointed out that we felt that it WAS for the person who wanted something very unique, not just a better turntable.

I love my Rega P3 with a Dynavector 17D3 cartridge (and Groovetracer subplatter upgrade). It sounds fantastic in my budget system and if that's what I was listening to as my only system, it would probably be all the further I'd ever go with a turntable.

But put it in the big system on the CLX's, side by side with the SG-2, and the Dynavector XV-1s and it's not even close. Is that extra 20 thousand dollars worth it to you? It sounds like it isn't and that's fine. But it's well worth it to me as it is to other people.

Who are you or I to tell anyone what to do with their money or that because they can afford better luxury items than you can that their judgement is flawed. Jerry Seinfeld called me one day to tell me about a car he "stole" at auction for "only" 1.6 million dollars. I thought he was insane and told him so. We both laughed and he said "yeah, that is kind of crazy isn't it?"

But he was making 5 million an episode for the show at that point, so it's all relative.

The bottom line is that the difference exists and if you have a fairly high resolution system it's pretty easy to hear that difference. It's up to you if it makes sense for your lifestyle, and again, you are no less of a person should you choose not to spend your money that way.

But high end audio is just that. It's a very obsessive hobby as are many other such things. You can participate at whatever level you choose.

Yes, the big Continuum isn't art in the ultimate sense, but it allows you to experience the art of whatever music you own in a much more realistic and meaningful way than you ever will with a Rega P3 or a Technics SL1200.

And for the person that has that kind of money to spend, it isn't a problem.

I realize full well that when I review a piece of gear at that price point, I'm writing to a much smaller audience than when I review a pair of 1000 dollar speakers. But don't kid yourself, the guy that buys the 100k pair of speakers has usually put just as much thought into it. In the end it's a hierarchy of needs thing. If you are sweating the load to pay the mortgage, you can't buy a continuum. That's life.

It doesn't make me any less interested in gear at that level, just because you can't afford it.

That's why we try to review a wide range of stuff, so hopefully there will be something for everyone to enjoy.

I have not said you can't enjoy music unless you have a five figure turntable, what I have said is that you can't hear as much of the music on a 500 dollar turntable as you can on a 15 thousand dollar turntable, and you can't hear as much of the recording on a scratched up $5 pressing that you bought in a thrift shop as you can on a pristine original, low numbered stamper pressing or pristine audiophile remaster.

I can enjoy music anywhere. But I always enjoy it more on a great system.

 

[tonepub]

And comparing high end audio to fine art that hangs in museums is pretty pointless.

While the Continuum was made with some expensive machine tools and raw materials, the Mona Lisa was made with 10 dollars worth of art supplies.

That doesn't mean you or I can make one. The Mona Lisa hangs in a museum because it is a one of a kind piece. It only commands the price it does because someone is willing to pay for it, and the person who doesn't appreciate fine art wouldn't give you fifty cents for it.

It doesn't mean that the Mona Lisa is bad or overvalued. And it doesn't mean fine art is flawed because I can't afford my favorite impressionist painting for my living room. I'd rather have a Monet.

 

[DrJRapp]

what I have said is that you can't hear as much of the music on a 500 dollar turntable as you can on a 15 thousand dollar turntable, and you can't hear as much of the recording on a scratched up $5 pressing that you bought in a thrift shop as you can on a pristine original, low numbered stamper pressing or pristine audiophile remaster.

I can enjoy music anywhere. But I always enjoy it more on a great system.

Until a couple of years ago I would have savagely disagreed with you. I had a Music Hall 5.1 ( the proverbial $500 TT) and everything sounded quite peachy. Nothing to compete with my digital side, but very nice nevertheless. This was before I bought my Summits. I was still running Klipsch RF7s off Rotel separates

Then a friend of mine suggested a better TT and I was quickly able to sell my 5.1 and headed out to see the local analog guru. He set me up with a Michell Technodec, Rega arm and Grado cartridge. There was a noticeable inprovement in resolution, a reduction in sillibance, increased warmth and much better defined and prodigious bass.

I still wasn't really excited about analog, and when I pulled together my ML/BAT/Meridian/Aragon rig my analog front end sounded crude by comparison and my seeking vinyl pleasures literally stopped. i was convinced I had reach the end of the line of the source media.

Recently I've had too much time on my hands and started exploring system upgrades. Since my digital front end was already in the ozone layer, I decided to work over the analog to see if I could get back interested in that.

I still have the Techno...but it is sitting on the sidelines waiting to be sold. I purchased a used $4000 TT, a used $2K arm and a $1500 phono cartridge. Mind you we are now at about 15 times the cost of my original Music Hall if my items were purchase new.

The results now finally give my digital side a run for the money....definitly a different experience from the less costly TTs. And I haven't even gotten to my phono stage....yet.

The moral of my story is that it's very hard to see Jeffs side of things unless you've been there done that. When I had my $2K+ TT arm and cartridge combination, I thought...no..... I truely believed that I was limited by the medium and not the equipment and that spending more money would only yield small returns in sound. I want to thank Jeff for teaching me otherwise.

 

[MiTT]

Its not that I think such products are bad or evil (BTW, I NEVER said that such expensive items were inherently evil--go back and review my post carefully, MiTT). And I don't think that people who buy such things are, by their purchase, made inherently evil or bad. The problem I have is the attitude that if you CAN'T afford such gear, you are somehow either not "truely" enjoying your musical playback, or the implication that people who won't justify such purchases are somehow incapable of grasping the subtle nuances of "analogue magic".

Richard, please don't misinterpret my intentions here. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I really do enjoy a lot of your posts as well as constructive debate.

You are correct (and I did a poor job of paraphrasing), you never said that expensive items were inherently evil. I believe you implied something far worse. If I invert your logic highlighted above as a sylogistic exercise the conclusion I have an issue with is that "if you CAN afford expensive gear you are "Little more than a deep pocketed collector".

I think both statements are equally absurd, and I don't believe you meant either to be interpreted literally. But I do think that the use of such strong rhetoric as "the sociopathy of the mega-rich", "blood-stained largess", "wealthy wankers" and "classist bordering on Oligarchical" in your descriptions of folks who may have spent un-godly sums on their hi-fi gear doesn't really help strengthen your position, it mearly sounds like you have an axe to grind.

I seriously doubt that everyone who has become wealthy and then chosen to spend their money in this pursuit have come about it through ill gotten means. I also believe that there are a lot of well heeled audiophiles who really do enjoy listening to music both live and through their hi-fi - that it isn't simply an exercise intended to differentiate themselves from the lower class.

 

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I would refer to someone as a "Deep pocketed collector" if they had a room full of expensive hifi, a huge collection of original pressings that cost a fortune and didn't use them. But again, their money, their privilege.

I agree with Dan, your system and music collection should be to provide enjoyment to you and no one else. If your significant others dig it too that's a bonus.