Summit bass?

[khenegar]

Summit and Summit-x owners do u feel it is necessary to use sub woofers in order to fill out the bass duties of ur speakers? The summits specs say there good to 24hz plus or- 3db which I feel should be quite good. With no need for subs! This is for music only not movies!

 

[Cherian]

I have done A&B testing with my Summits with and without Subs. And Subs do help out a lot. I find (2) depth i did a great job. I have the subs crossed over at 50 Hz. Below is a link to other peoples thoughts on the matter.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?17868-Summits-with-Depth-i-subs

 

[sleepysurf]

Bass response really depends upon your speaker placement and room size/geometry (not to mention upstream components).

When I had my Summits (in a large open concept family room + adjoining kitchen), I added dual BF210's, mainly to smooth out the overall bass response and help fill a "null" at 50 - 60 Hz at the main listening position. They added perhaps 2 Hz additional low bass (relatively insignificant), but helped "pressurize" the large space for more "palpable" bass.

I now have Expression 13a's, and with the use of ARC, I have palpable bass even without the subs, but am still using the subs to fill in the still-present null.

Conversely, fellow MLOC member George (Audioseduction), after upgrading from Odyssey's to Summit X's, actually got rid of his sub, as the Summit X's alone yield stunning, palpable bass, in his (smaller) listening room.

Bottom line is... it depends!

 

[adeep42]

I have Summit X's and have always felt that bass was more than adequate. The thought of adding subs never occurred to me.

 

[GW1800]

Summit and Summit-x owners do u feel it is necessary to use sub woofers in order to fill out the bass duties of ur speakers? The summits specs say there good to 24hz plus or- 3db which I feel should be quite good. With no need for subs! This is for music only not movies!

I had the Summit X's for my 2 channel system to start with originally without subs. I was so happy with the ML sound that at first the lack of bass was not an issue. I'm also not saying there is none either and good quality at that also. But as I got more accustomed to the sound the bass started to bother me more and more. I did what I could to adjust the bass but just was not satisfied. My room is approx. 16'x25' with 9' ceilings. Eventually I tried one then two Descent i's and they made a tremendous difference not just in the bass but way above that which many have commented on before. My room is not huge but not small either so its possible in a much smaller room subs are not needed but I highly doubt that - more likely one but not none. I know Summit's are rated as you state but the bass just came up short which according to the specs it should not but it did. I think there is a lot of audiophile's that just have an issue with a sub in general as placement was so critical maybe even looks. They also take another power cord and interconnect so it does add up. Even I think TAS reviewer that lists CLX's as part of his reference system yet I think listens without subs which I think is just crazy but that is me. Obviously with the CLX its a different thing as they only go down to 50-55hz so there is a big gaping hole. I think most people just have not heard what a good sub can do even for a quality speaker like the Summit X and assume with good specs all is well - I was one of them until I tried them out. Also the placement issue with the way they can now correct with a program for your individual room I can't believe other than cost/space issue or a "I just don't believe in subs" mentality why a sub(s) is not part of good sounding system.

I now have a pair of 13's with room correction in the media room but not 2 channel. I know I was at Axpona last year and the 13's that they had in a pretty big room sounded really really good. So I'm wondering was it the lack of bass or was it that the bass that was there on the Summit X's just could not be controlled like in the 13's. Not sure but what I do know my son has a set of 13's and we added a 212 and it did make a huge difference to the better for him.

 

[benleeys]

Hi Summit owners,

My speakers are slightly more than 10 years old. It appears the all the 4 bass amps have lost 90% of their output, so much so that the sound is heard only coming from the panels. The attached shows a comparison of a current measurement and one taken 4 years ago. Both are taken with Anthem's ARC. Note the steep fall off exactly at the crossover point. The ARC mic is only accurate to about 5k, so we can ignore the readings above that frequency.

Has anybody here experienced this issue with their speakers?

 

[sleepysurf]

What Anthem gear are you powering them with?

Are both Summit back panel power LED's still GREEN? While it's possible that all the ICE power modules have failed in both speakers, I would expect the LED's in that case to stay RED. If so, first make sure they are really getting power. Otherwise contact ML for further assistance.

If they are GREEN, the problem may be upstream (presumably in your Anthem amp or receiver), or cables. It looks like the woofers still have some output. I suggest playing some deep bass tracks, with Anthem Room Correction turned off, and see how that sounds. Perhaps your ARC settings are erroneously attenuating the woofers.

 

[benleeys]

What Anthem gear are you powering them with?

Are both Summit back panel power LED's still GREEN? While it's possible that all the ICE power modules have failed in both speakers, I would expect the LED's in that case to stay RED. If so, first make sure they are really getting power. Otherwise contact ML for further assistance.

If they are GREEN, the problem may be upstream (presumably in your Anthem amp or receiver), or cables. It looks like the woofers still have some output. I suggest playing some deep bass tracks, with Anthem Room Correction turned off, and see how that sounds. Perhaps your ARC settings are erroneously attenuating the woofers.

Power LEDs are green. I've substituted the preamp with no better result, so my Anthem Statement D2v3D processor, cables and ARC are certainly not the issue.

My conclusion is that ALL the ICE power modules are failing yet again (they did 3/4 years ago). Not failed totally, just gone soft as there is still a very small output (small cone movement can be felt). Else the LEDs would have turned red. Incidentally, I seem to remember reading somewhere that the early Class D amps tend to have short operating lifespan.

I was just wondering if anybody here has experienced this issue.

 

[JonFo]

Bummer, sorry to hear Ben. But from those graphs, yep, the amps are likely bad and will need replacement (again).

Is there a localized power issue that might be frying them early? Otherwise, I'd expect to see a greater failure rate in other Summits.
or do you run the hard?

BTW- this is why I like rolling my own active speakers, I'm in full control of amplification. And the amps I use last decades, I just realized my oldest Amp (Sunfire Stereo) is from 1995! Granted, I had to refurbish it in 2007, but I also have an amp from 1996 (Sunfire Cinema Grand) and from 2000 (Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature) that are all original.

 

[benleeys]

Bummer, sorry to hear Ben. But from those graphs, yep, the amps are likely bad and will need replacement (again).

Is there a localized power issue that might be frying them early? Otherwise, I'd expect to see a greater failure rate in other Summits.
or do you run the hard?

It did cross my mind that the problem could be a power issue, Jon, but then won't the power supply be the board be affected too? And it is not as if it happened overnight; it is a gradual degradation. And no, I do not run the speakers rock and roll hard. Mostly classical music and western and country stuff.

BTW- this is why I like rolling my own active speakers, I'm in full control of amplification. And the amps I use last decades, I just realized my oldest Amp (Sunfire Stereo) is from 1995! Granted, I had to refurbish it in 2007, but I also have an amp from 1996 (Sunfire Cinema Grand) and from 2000 (Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature) that are all original.

Haha, I am still powering my ML Passage surrounds and ML Stage center with 3 Marantz MA500 monoblocks from 1995. Never had a problem with them. Remember the Crowns amps? Real solid pieces built with discrete components and they last forever. My 87 year old uncle is still using one with his JBLs! I think, generally, equipment these days seem to be rather delicate by comparison. Maybe too many ICs in them.

 

[JonFo]

Ben, given the gradual degradation, I'm thinking heat might be the next causal suspect. Those amps are stuck inside a cabinet, being vibrated and possibly building up a fair amount of heat. Have you touched the amp plates on the summit to see how hot they get after a few hours of usage?

Since you live in a hot climate, even with AC, the ambient is likely higher than an avg. US-based home, so more likely to have long-term heat stress.

Haha, I am still powering my ML Passage surrounds and ML Stage center with 3 Marantz MA500 monoblocks from 1995. Never had a problem with them. Remember the Crowns amps? Real solid pieces built with discrete components and they last forever.

Sure do, the old discrete-based Crowns were amazing. The K2 is legendary. But even the new Drivecore 2 amps are very robust. I use a Crown XLS-2500 for my rear sealed 18" sub, and it's bulletproof.

 

[khenegar]

I have had repeated bad luck with my amps on my summits just recently sent hem back for repair when I sent in the amp for repair they noticed the other amp was barely working so they replaced it also and while they were working on them the other speakers amp went out so back it went boy I was really getting discussed and swore I would never buy a powered speaker again. So far they have been running ok I’ve been checking them ever so often. I really hate this wondering if there working or not!!! Wonder how dependable the new speakers amps are?

 

[benleeys]

I have had repeated bad luck with my amps on my summits just recently sent hem back for repair when I sent in the amp for repair they noticed the other amp was barely working so they replaced it also and while they were working on them the other speakers amp went out so back it went boy I was really getting discussed and swore I would never buy a powered speaker again. So far they have been running ok I’ve been checking them ever so often. I really hate this wondering if there working or not!!! Wonder how dependable the new speakers amps are?

Jackpot! I was hoping I'd hear from owners like you, Khenegar. From its nature, I suspected I'm not the only one affected with the problem. How old are your Summits? It's easy to check their condition by running a quick frequency check of the speakers. If the problem you suffered was like mine, it's a gradual deterioration over time, with the sound getting softer and softer. I kept a record of the graphs and could see clearly the bass droop getting steeper starting at the crossover point of 270Hz with each run.

I hope ML still have spare amps in stock after all these years. It's going to cost me a pretty penny to replace all four of them.

BTW, who do you suggest I should get in touch with at ML regarding spare parts (bass amps). Thanks.

 

[benleeys]

Ben, given the gradual degradation, I'm thinking heat might be the next causal suspect. Those amps are stuck inside a cabinet, being vibrated and possibly building up a fair amount of heat. Have you touched the amp plates on the summit to see how hot they get after a few hours of usage?

Since you live in a hot climate, even with AC, the ambient is likely higher than an avg. US-based home, so more likely to have long-term heat stress.

Actually, Jon, the climate heat here has never been a factor. My room is cooled with AC and even the big Karan amp is just warm to touch even after hours of use.

The Summits use class D amps without the need for heatsinks. When I opened the rear panel, even with the tight enclosure, the hottest item on each amp board was the small transformer which felt just a bit too warm to touch. Still, it is possible that with the years of use without ventilation of any sort in the bass compartment, components can be adversely affected. I hope the bass enclosures on the Renaissance and Expressions are better designed because I have been eyeing them lately.

 

[khenegar]

Contact m/l service and ask them talk with Scott Gribble if u can.but I have emailed m/l service explaining my problem and Scott usually answers the question. One suggestion he had me do is to take out some of the stuffing to help lessen some of the heat in the cabinet. I took out half , my one friend said I should have taken out all of it! That’s up to u how much u want to take out. I think the ideal thing to do is to build a vented cabinet outside the summits for the amps/crossover and make an umbilical cord to run between the summit and the amps. Someone on this site has done just that for the speakers. Im sure that would be a lot of work but it would be ideal. Martin Logan may have solved there heat problem with there new speakers! I’ll email them and ask.

 

[benleeys]

Thanks for your info, Khenegar. I'll email them. I think removing the stuffing is a great idea. The back compartment is easy, but the front is something else as the speaker behind the grill will have to be removed. I believe there's another circuit board in there too. Wonder who the member who did the modifications is. Hope he sees this and be kind enough to chime in.

I took a peek at ML's site last night and saw the side cutout of the Expression. The electronics are now located outside in a metal enclosure beneath the box. That should solve the heat problem greatly.

 

[jacek-k-wawa]

Entire active bass section of Summits is located in the back 'compartment' so there is no need to remove front grill/front woofer. And removal of this amp plate is easy - just few screws. Once removed you will see 2 ICE power amps stacked on the top of active bass EQ board. BTW - in the front part of bass enclosure you will find only passive x-over for panel.

One issue makes me wonder here - why both of the amps would fail in the same time? Maybe this has something to do with power supply for those ICE Power amps? If I remember correctly there were 2 version of ICE Power modules - with and without PSU - so maybe 2 amps share the same power supplied from one module?

Anyway - I am not sure if complete removal of stuffing is good idea from internal dumping perspective. What about just moving this a bit away from this PCBs?

 

[benleeys]

Entire active bass section of Summits is located in the back 'compartment' so there is no need to remove front grill/front woofer. And removal of this amp plate is easy - just few screws. Once removed you will see 2 ICE power amps stacked on the top of active bass EQ board. BTW - in the front part of bass enclosure you will find only passive x-over for panel.

Yes, that is exactly what I found.

One issue makes me wonder here - why both of the amps would fail in the same time? Maybe this has something to do with power supply for those ICE Power amps? If I remember correctly there were 2 version of ICE Power modules - with and without PSU - so maybe 2 amps share the same power supplied from one module?

It did occur to me too why all the 4 ICE boards (looks like they're from B. & O.) should fail similarly. I am no expert at reading circuit boards, but it looks like each board has its own PS as I do see a connector labelled 100-240vac 50/60Hz. I did managed to borrow a couple of boards from another Summit and got the bass back, but these boards also failed after about 3 years.

Anyway - I am not sure if complete removal of stuffing is good idea from internal dumping perspective. What about just moving this a bit away from this PCBs?

Yes, I was concerned about the damping too, so I just removed it from the upper part where the stack of boards intrude.

 

[benleeys]

Just an update on the Summit bass issue. Scott Gribble, ML's Service Manager, was most helpful. He shipped 4 power amp boards to me for replacement. As you can see, the latest ARC sweeps are back to normal.



You guys stay safe, ok?

 

[khenegar]

Bass drivers

Benleey what is ur method of testing the bass drivers on ur summits? I just listen to the front one and touch the bottom one to see if there working! Thanks