Good point and I agree. As for those that don't want cable discussions it's really quite easy............ don't participate !!
ML uses inadequate power cables?
- Thread starter jimbill
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Good point and I agree. As for those that don't want cable discussions it's really quite easy............ don't participate !!
BigGuy
Well-known member
Owning CLXs, I feel that the M-L OEM power cords are adequate but they are powered from a PS Audio P300 AC regenerator.
All front end components use Anticables power cords powered from a PS Audio P3 AC regenerator.
Both regenerators are sourced from a dedicated 20A circuit with reasonably priced hospital grade duplex. Cannot get behind concept of expensive high end power cords plugged into duplexes directly supplied by master panel.
Pass XA-60.8 amps use Pangea AC9 power cords powered by a PS Audio Duet sourced from a dedicated 20A circuit with a reasonably priced hospital grade duplex.
Both I and a friend have found that using power regenerated by PS Audio regenerators, even those of adequate capacity, restrict/stifle the amps but YMMV.
All front end components use Anticables power cords powered from a PS Audio P3 AC regenerator.
Both regenerators are sourced from a dedicated 20A circuit with reasonably priced hospital grade duplex. Cannot get behind concept of expensive high end power cords plugged into duplexes directly supplied by master panel.
Pass XA-60.8 amps use Pangea AC9 power cords powered by a PS Audio Duet sourced from a dedicated 20A circuit with a reasonably priced hospital grade duplex.
Both I and a friend have found that using power regenerated by PS Audio regenerators, even those of adequate capacity, restrict/stifle the amps but YMMV.
Stefan_DR3
Well-known member
You're right, some of us got distracted from the main question and I didn't mean to imply you were "one of those people obsessing over AC cords". I think we can read between the lines on ML's recommendation. If in doubt one could ask ML, okay then what cords did you use to voice the speakers and publish the specs? But I think you know the answer.
Same goes for electronic products (not speakers) claiming that hundreds of hours of break-in are needed for optimum performance. It is mind blowing to read some professional reviews that claim an amp was "unlistenable" such that they had to close the door and leave the house when it was brand new. Did the designer wait 300 hours before determining the final "voice" of the amp? Why would they design something that is so finnicky that it is likely to put off anyone that auditions it at home or in a showroom?
Ronin
Well-known member
I have a dedicated 20a as well and multiple amp companies have told me to use the 20a wall- do NOT use a re-gen or similar. I agree 100% with your statement about possible restriction in regards to amps etc with re-gens. I have owned a few but none at this time. My most successful application for Niagara or re-gen was source only- DAC, Video, etc.
I did spend some money on my amp power cord (AQ) and a little on others (PS Audio) but the CLXIIz's are running factory. No difference when I switched anyway. Maybe a Niagara or re-gen might work for the ML power but not really needed at this point. I did switch speaker cable however from Beldon silver to Monocle XL. That was a good change. Iconoclast is great stuff, but Kimber sounded better for my application.
G'day maties trust y'all are enjoying those fine tunes from those fine stats!
Speaking of cables, power cords etc., I posted a fairly lengthy one on another thread started by Shawn DaV-Media. It had some interesting insights to what ML owners were using or are currently using.
I've certainly had my fair share of cable disasters and at the same time, very successful ones. The disasters I've been through were mostly to do with source gear or room acoustics, and in those cases it took a while to figure out where the problem was. On one of the last trip-outs, I mean really a trip-out... I could hear bloody radio frequency coming from one channel of the CLX's. The particular driver tubes in my monoblocks are the 6922's and these are known for being great radio tubes! Then I started noticing a hum from the right channel which was caused by the right monoblock. So shut down everything, and both monoblocks were sent off for check up. It turned out to be that one of them had a loose ground wire! This was causing the hum and the other had a loose tube socket that was causing the 6922 to play havoc. All fixed, and now no hum, and no radio talk, so all good!
Then, I noticed at the time, my McIntosh SACD player was picking up unwanted hum. It turned out to be a weak motor spinning discs, probably caused over time, I don't know... plus a weak laser unit. So that was fixed and promptly sold! Only after I upgraded to the Esoteric digital gear, things were far more quiet, far more neutral and a significant improvement in capturing all the details in fine recordings.
Then with a few more tweaks on the AC mains wiring, plus using slightly better wires running to the mains board and keeping the audio system on separate CB's, improved the overall performance by a significant margin. These were the qualities I was after, absolute quietness, no hums, no whizzing, no buzzing, no hissing, and just absolute silence!
Once that was sorted out, only then did I try different cables and power cords arriving at the most neutral sound possible. Otherwise my upgrade path with cables & power cords didn't seem justifiable. So now, I'm currently using a full Nordost loom (power cords and interconnects of the same series with a higher grade series on the speaker cables). My rationale for using a higher grade Nordost cable on speakers was because the signal ends at the speakers. So why not have the best quality affordable at the speaker end, and it has worked wonders!
Now, of course I would have preferred if the entire Nordost loom were a full array of Valhalla or Odin's... but I'm not that rich! I do have a limit in all this madness... so get what you can afford and most of all, enjoy it to the fullest.
Obviously sky's the limit with these accessories and some go to great lengths to achieve perfection but I've always believed in getting the basics right first. AC mains, power distribution and proper grounding first! Then install all your other accessories, otherwise it's an absolute waste of money. I've come across some very lofty set ups, where the gear is outstanding but the AC mains distribution and grounding very mediocre, so what's the point. Looks like short cuts were taken or such basic elements were overlooked to make way for expensive gear instead... not a good idea.
There's no best or perfect cable solution to any system, it all depends on your particular setup, your personal needs and listening habits. Once you find the right combination, just stick to it! Whether it's $40 cables or $40,000 cables or power cords, as long as you're enjoying those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
Speaking of cables, power cords etc., I posted a fairly lengthy one on another thread started by Shawn DaV-Media. It had some interesting insights to what ML owners were using or are currently using.
I've certainly had my fair share of cable disasters and at the same time, very successful ones. The disasters I've been through were mostly to do with source gear or room acoustics, and in those cases it took a while to figure out where the problem was. On one of the last trip-outs, I mean really a trip-out... I could hear bloody radio frequency coming from one channel of the CLX's. The particular driver tubes in my monoblocks are the 6922's and these are known for being great radio tubes! Then I started noticing a hum from the right channel which was caused by the right monoblock. So shut down everything, and both monoblocks were sent off for check up. It turned out to be that one of them had a loose ground wire! This was causing the hum and the other had a loose tube socket that was causing the 6922 to play havoc. All fixed, and now no hum, and no radio talk, so all good!
Then, I noticed at the time, my McIntosh SACD player was picking up unwanted hum. It turned out to be a weak motor spinning discs, probably caused over time, I don't know... plus a weak laser unit. So that was fixed and promptly sold! Only after I upgraded to the Esoteric digital gear, things were far more quiet, far more neutral and a significant improvement in capturing all the details in fine recordings.
Then with a few more tweaks on the AC mains wiring, plus using slightly better wires running to the mains board and keeping the audio system on separate CB's, improved the overall performance by a significant margin. These were the qualities I was after, absolute quietness, no hums, no whizzing, no buzzing, no hissing, and just absolute silence!
Once that was sorted out, only then did I try different cables and power cords arriving at the most neutral sound possible. Otherwise my upgrade path with cables & power cords didn't seem justifiable. So now, I'm currently using a full Nordost loom (power cords and interconnects of the same series with a higher grade series on the speaker cables). My rationale for using a higher grade Nordost cable on speakers was because the signal ends at the speakers. So why not have the best quality affordable at the speaker end, and it has worked wonders!
Now, of course I would have preferred if the entire Nordost loom were a full array of Valhalla or Odin's... but I'm not that rich! I do have a limit in all this madness... so get what you can afford and most of all, enjoy it to the fullest.
Obviously sky's the limit with these accessories and some go to great lengths to achieve perfection but I've always believed in getting the basics right first. AC mains, power distribution and proper grounding first! Then install all your other accessories, otherwise it's an absolute waste of money. I've come across some very lofty set ups, where the gear is outstanding but the AC mains distribution and grounding very mediocre, so what's the point. Looks like short cuts were taken or such basic elements were overlooked to make way for expensive gear instead... not a good idea.
There's no best or perfect cable solution to any system, it all depends on your particular setup, your personal needs and listening habits. Once you find the right combination, just stick to it! Whether it's $40 cables or $40,000 cables or power cords, as long as you're enjoying those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
amey01
Well-known member
You've seen the sort of filtering inside the components though, haven't you?
If a power cable (of any value) can compete with that, I'll eat my hat.
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BigGuy
Well-known member
Purchased back when PS Audio first introduced the P300 regenerator, I felt, and continue, to feel that it was one of the most impactful (read improving) component I added to my system. A decade(?) on, I upgraded to the P3 to power my front end components and relegated the P300 to powering the CLXs.
FWIW, I use the original PS Audio Quintessence power conditioner as supply for miscellaneous power needs...more to prevent backflow of noise into the system than supplying better power.
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I have my CLXs plugged into a PS Audio P20 regenerator and the sound definitely improved as well as the sound from my amps. I wasn’t expecting the sound of the speakers to improve but they did. The P300 is a very old piece. PS Audio has made significant strides since the P300. I had the P10 and the P20 is much better than the P10. I wouldn’t plug amps into a P300.
audioxcel
Well-known member
Filter caps filter ripple current not EMI noise.
BigGuy
Well-known member
FWIW, I found that these sleeves work well on IEC320 plugs if they are loose in an equipment socket...particularly if the cable is hefty:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KGERE6I/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KGERE6I/
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amey01
Well-known member
All the filtering- not just caps. If a ferrite core is also needed, I have no reason to expect it not to be there.
Your link isn’t working,
I just edited his post to use the correct one. But it looks like there is no seller for that product ATM.
And since I'm here, I'll chime in with my $0.02.
AC Power quality and stability are factors in a well-performing AV system, but no need to go overboard, as any well-designed equipment guards against most common anomalies.
In an extensive, complex system with over 35 power connections in it (yes, I was surprised as well), keeping AC noise to a minimum is essential. So I run a fully balanced power system, fronted by a 5KVA EquiTech toroidal transformer that is fed 240v @30A and delivers +60/-60 AC balanced (or technical) power to the loads.
As the system is complex, I need power distribution and sequencing (50A inrush load if I power up all amps simultaneously). Because there are no commercial high-power sequencers that deal with balanced power (must switch both legs), I designed and built my own and documented it in this build thread.
So what power cords do I use on such a sophisticated power setup?
Well, the stock cables that come with every single unit.
The power quality at the plug is much more relevant than the cable, assuming the cable is adequate to the load. Works fine with the stock ones.
AC Power quality and stability are factors in a well-performing AV system, but no need to go overboard, as any well-designed equipment guards against most common anomalies.
In an extensive, complex system with over 35 power connections in it (yes, I was surprised as well), keeping AC noise to a minimum is essential. So I run a fully balanced power system, fronted by a 5KVA EquiTech toroidal transformer that is fed 240v @30A and delivers +60/-60 AC balanced (or technical) power to the loads.
As the system is complex, I need power distribution and sequencing (50A inrush load if I power up all amps simultaneously). Because there are no commercial high-power sequencers that deal with balanced power (must switch both legs), I designed and built my own and documented it in this build thread.
So what power cords do I use on such a sophisticated power setup?
Well, the stock cables that come with every single unit.
The power quality at the plug is much more relevant than the cable, assuming the cable is adequate to the load. Works fine with the stock ones.
BigGuy
Well-known member
Search on "SF Cable C13 Secure Sleeve" for multiple sellers.
amey01
Well-known member
Agree 100%. Sadly though, your setup is too much like hard work for most people. Why go to the bother of doing all that, when all they need to do is go down to the local audio shop and spend the same amount (or more) on a shiny power cable - then pretend it works just as well.
amey01
Well-known member
Also - one of the most expensive power cables is the Nordost ODIN.
I quote from Nordost themselves:
Can you please tell me how silver plated, 99.999999% pure copper can filter out anything?
It is reading to me like it is designed with great expense for the best possible transfer of what goes in!
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Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of power being generated by the relative motion of conductors and fluxes, it’s produced by the modial interaction of magneto reluctance and capacitive diractance.
amey01
Well-known member
Haha - that's the best "pseudo-tech //marketo-gabble" I've ever heard.
amey01
Well-known member
Another thing worth raising and considering.
NOTE: I am taking these comments from the manufacturers themselves. Again, this quote is from Nordost - one of the most expensive and coveted power cable manufacturers in the world. Therefore, ostensibly one of the ones who best understands the improvement power cable can make:
Now, how on earth can a power cable make a "faster" 50 or 60 Hz cycle? The 50Hz cycle is by definition 50Hz - it can't be sped up or slowed down, least not by a friggin' power cable!
This is an absolute contradiction in the basic definition of 50Hz!!! You can't make a faster 50Hz! Or a slower 50Hz for that matter.
Now, they do mention "rise time".......so is it speeding up the rise time, and commensurately slowing down the slew/decay time so that the cycle still equals 50Hz? If so, I know what that is called.........distortion!
What should be a pure sinewave is no longer a pure sinewave.
They said it themselves - the power cable is adding distortion!
So, by the manufacturers own pseudo-technical words, the power cable is either:
* Somehow changing the very definition of the word "hertz" by increasing 50Hz beyond 50 cycles a second
or;
* Adding distortion to what should be a pure sinewave
Given the prevaricating ambiguity of the inane technobabble, it is hard to ascertain what this power cable that costs more than a small house is doing.
Mind you - ML speakers don't work when the presented line frequency does not match specification (either 50 or 60 Hz)........so if this power cable really is doing what the manufacturer is explicitly saying it is doing (presenting a faster 50Hz), it should be pretty damn easy to test - ML speakers will not work when connected to this power cable!! What a joke.
NOTE: I am taking these comments from the manufacturers themselves. Again, this quote is from Nordost - one of the most expensive and coveted power cable manufacturers in the world. Therefore, ostensibly one of the ones who best understands the improvement power cable can make:
Now, how on earth can a power cable make a "faster" 50 or 60 Hz cycle? The 50Hz cycle is by definition 50Hz - it can't be sped up or slowed down, least not by a friggin' power cable!
This is an absolute contradiction in the basic definition of 50Hz!!! You can't make a faster 50Hz! Or a slower 50Hz for that matter.
Now, they do mention "rise time".......so is it speeding up the rise time, and commensurately slowing down the slew/decay time so that the cycle still equals 50Hz? If so, I know what that is called.........distortion!
What should be a pure sinewave is no longer a pure sinewave.
They said it themselves - the power cable is adding distortion!
So, by the manufacturers own pseudo-technical words, the power cable is either:
* Somehow changing the very definition of the word "hertz" by increasing 50Hz beyond 50 cycles a second
or;
* Adding distortion to what should be a pure sinewave
Given the prevaricating ambiguity of the inane technobabble, it is hard to ascertain what this power cable that costs more than a small house is doing.
Mind you - ML speakers don't work when the presented line frequency does not match specification (either 50 or 60 Hz)........so if this power cable really is doing what the manufacturer is explicitly saying it is doing (presenting a faster 50Hz), it should be pretty damn easy to test - ML speakers will not work when connected to this power cable!! What a joke.
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