ML uses inadequate power cables?

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Leporello

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How about placebo effect? The only way I'd trust that a cable is better than another would be doing a blind test, or better yet a double blind. Not sure how you could do a double blind unless all of the tested cables looked the same or if the person switching the cables has no idea which ones are most expensive or supposed to sound better.

If something sounds better, then why can't that be measured with REW software and a microphone? If the sound is legitimately better, shouldn't that show up in measurements? If the graph from using two different cables is exactly the same, won't the music sound the same?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that anything you can hear, you can measure. REW in particular, is dependent on path lengths, which can change if the microphone moves by a millimeter, or by a butterfly flapping its wings in Paris. No two REW sweeps are exactly the same. But I will say that any difference in sound is attributable to something physical, whether or not we can measure it consistently. There is no known physical model that can account for boutique line cords making things sound better. The pseudo-scientific explanations do not hold up to serious scrutiny.
 

Big Dog RJ

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Very good points of discussion from all ends... basically nothing is wrong or right here. As a fair number of members have already mentioned, use what you want and only you can determine if it's worth it or not!

If such accessories enhance the overall performance in terms of more naturalness, proper tonality, less coloured and more of the music flows then that's all that matters, regardless of what power cords, cables or connections are being used.

Heck, I know one chap who installed a full Audience cable power loom for close to 50grand for Maggie's 30.7's. The excessive cost is due to Audience custom designing speaker cables to perfectly match the impedence. Since impedence is not constant and varies with frequency, I'm really not sure how they design it but it sounds great!

Then there's another chap with diy / home designed cables, using Furutec plugs on power cords and some unheard of high grade speaker wire, all up 15grand. That system also sounds marvellous! Avant Garde Horns Duo XD's driven by their own AG integrated amplifier. Beautiful design btw, German engineering at its finest!

Then there's another chap with a vintage system, using tube amps from Jadis and Sonic Frontiers driving an old pair of CLS stats full range. Again, sounds fantastic! Approx cost of wiring and accessories about 5-6grand nothing more. However, under each component he's placed Center stage isolation feet from Critical Mass designs, and the cost of these have not been factored in. The rationale to use these is because the system is based on a vintage set up, whereas with more modern gear, it's not required... according to him.

So, as I learnt each person has their own experiences and knowledge and chooses what best suits their systems. I've listened extensively to all three and cannot fault them in anyway. Each one has its own signature sound, and delivers music in its most unique way, one that is natural, rich in midrange and mostly uncoloured. HF and LF extension are well balanced, nothing overloaded... so I guess each systems power loom matches well with the rest of their gear.

It's a beautiful thing when it all comes together... synergy!
Cheers, RJ
 

Nuri58

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I recall a test where cables were switched in front of the pro listeners and the could clearly detect the difference. No doubt, the sound in the one more crisp etc. Only thing was the switch was between dummy equipment so the music came from the same set-up all along. Can we learn something from this? I think yes the pleasure of having that signarure gear adds psychologically to the pleasure. This implies that one should go for it if that's the priority in life.
 

Robert D

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I recall a test where cables were switched in front of the pro listeners and the could clearly detect the difference. No doubt, the sound in the one more crisp etc. Only thing was the switch was between dummy equipment so the music came from the same set-up all along. Can we learn something from this? I think yes the pleasure of having that signarure gear adds psychologically to the pleasure. This implies that one should go for it if that's the priority in life.
Reminds me of the story The Emperor's New Clothes.
 

ttocs

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I wouldn't go so far as to say that anything you can hear, you can measure.
I tried to prove what I was hearing could be measured, but couldn't.

I heard a demo of IsoAcoustics GAIA footers a couple years ago and was dumbfounded. It took me two years to try their returnable footers, which I did try in April of this year. I measured with the spikes that came with the 13A, then installed the GAIA footers, listened, heard a better soundstage, then measured and saw no meaningful difference that could be anything but run to run differences. So I thought I must be dreaming, so I reinstalled the spikes and the soundstage sounded like it did before with the spikes, measured again, no real difference, then reinstalled the GAIA footers, better soundstage again but isn't measurable.

So, there was a difference, which I enjoy, so I call that an improvement, but it's not something I know how to measure. So it must just be psychoacoustics at play. Whatever. If the GAIA footers provided no improvement, but also no degradation, I would keep them just for the looks and the ease of moving the speakers which allows me to test more without fear of damaging my floor. But since there's an "improvement" that I enjoy, that's just a nice bonus.

I'm of the opinion that so long as a power cord is correctly sized for the Current required by a device, then that's all that is needed. But, I actually do go further with it and decided to make all my power cords with 12AWG wire and plugs for anything that amplifies. All 7 circuits for my AV stuff are 20A, as are the receptacles, so I figure why not make the cords to the same spec?

Re OFC wire, it doesn't take much searching to find the industries that need OFC wiring and why, which is largely due to limiting chemical reactions and not due to electrical needs.
 

amey01

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I tried to prove what I was hearing could be measured, but couldn't.

As stated by someone else, it is hard to measure. And you can't just measure frequency - you have to be measuring all the properties of sound - frequency, amplitude, phase / timing.

Unless you're making tweaks to the speaker itself (granted, what this thread is about), it is easier to measure the line output rather than the room. (just make sure you are using a Nordost ODIN power cable on your 'scope, otherwise it won't be performing at its specification level, haha) .
 
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amey01

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LOL, we've gone 2 weeks and 82 posts and still debating on wether not M/L uses inadequate power cables !!

The answer remains the same...... NO THEY DO NOT !


After 88 posts, this is what I'm picking up:

* It's not enough to merely connect your equipment to the power supply;
* Despite thousands of kilometres of power cabling;
* And entire cities connected to the power grid;
* With millions of electrically "noisy" appliances in your neighbourhood;
* And tens of meters of poor quality wiring inside your walls;
* And probably metres of cheap wiring inside your compenents;
* As well as all the filtering and anything else the designer thinks necessary

........That little ~50cm bit from wall to the component is ostensibly responsible for injecting/allowing such horrific distortion and noise to get into your components;

AND

This "noise" is so severe that it can overcome everything the designer put in your component to prevent it;

AND WORSE:

This problem is so serious that it's worth dropping multi-thousands of dollars to solve........

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

But we can't be bothered providing any evidence or measurements. That's too hard.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So, apparently, is even a basic understanding of engineering and electrical principles.

Or even just 2+2 logic........

It really beggars belief. I am flummoxed.
 
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Big Dog RJ

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Flummoxed and confooosed ...

Sometimes I feel the same way and do wonder what's all the fuss about. Some will spend a fortune on cables alone, whiles others will just use the stock power cords. Speaking of which, with my Esoteric digital player, no stock power cords were supplied! They encourage the owner to use their own, Go figure!

If "music" is the primary focus and in most cases is so... I hope.
Extracting the best from quality recordings, through quality source gear is priority. So keeping that in mind, I really appreciate what some of these cable companies have done to achieve signal transfer at the highest level of Fidelity. It's really quite remarkable when you do actually experience it for yourself.

Of course everyone's budgets are different, and as mentioned before, use whatever you feel appropriate within your means. It's not necessary to go overboard but it's quite easy to get carried away...

Re. To the original question, whether or not ML supplies adequate power cords, yep! I certainly think so. They will work and do the job but when you can try something different and it yields very positive results, why not!

Right now I'm enjoying Ray Charles on vinyl, The Genius Loves Company album, Ray is in the house!

Cheers all, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ
 

rpokuls

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Years ago, the cable company Belkin tried to counteract the myth that interconnect cables are directional. Their own
customers got upset with them for ruining the party.
 
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Robert D

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Years ago, the cable company Belkin tried to counteract the myth that interconnect cables are directional. Their own
customers got upset with them for ruining the party.
My wire world cables are all directional. One time I screwed up and put it on going the wrong direction. It sounded the same. I had it that way for over a year before I happened to spot the arrows going wrong way.
 

ttocs

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Here's an idea.
But DON'T do this! It's only for making a point.

Instead of using separate power cords between components and the wall outlet, just extend the wires in the wall into the component. Cut out the middle man. The cost of one multi-thousand dollar cable would easily pay for an electrician who's willing to illegally provide a separate branch set of wires to each component. In other words, hardwire each component just like some appliances are. No expensive power cord needed. This is better, right?

No need for a separate power cord that operates at "a speed of 91% the speed of light" according to one fancy power cord manufacturer. The component will just have to be happy with the wall supplied percentage of the speed of light wires, as opposed to the electricity somehow speeding up then slowing down again when it enters the component.

This mental exercise, hopefully, might show how a little bit of wire with a couple plugs on each end shouldn't be more complicated than a wire hidden in a wall. If it is more complicated, then it's probably altering "something", but I don't even know what that would be considering the electric supply is Voltage and Current @ a certain Frequency.
 

JonFo

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Instead of using separate power cords between components and the wall outlet, just extend the wires in the wall into the component.

There are actually amps that can only be hardwired to the power source, and this one even supports multi-phase and voltages up to 400v

1661082401792.png
A boy like me wants this one. 130A peak OUTPUT current at 175V !
 

BigGuy

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There are actually amps that can only be hardwired to the power source, and this one even supports multi-phase and voltages up to 400v

View attachment 23186 A boy like me wants this one. 130A peak OUTPUT current at 175V !
IMHO, hardwiring the component directly to the source makes no sense to me even if just for the convenience standpoint of changing/replacing never mind the inability to shut off power in the event of smoke escaping from the box! Since it is unlikely that the circuit breaker would be in close proximity, one would have to find an audiophile breaker or switch to put in the line.
 

JonFo

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Since it is unlikely that the circuit breaker would be in close proximity, one would have to find an audiophile breaker or switch to put in the line.
I already have a high-quality power sequencing system with over-specced DPDT relays and breakers. So this amp would be a fit for my rig. I can switch off everything in a second or two; plus, I have automation monitors, and the breakers would (hopefully) do their thing in an overcurrent situation.

But others could wire up a plug to the amps hardwired input, but it would look more like your Dryers plug :cool:

In this particular case, the hardwire is there to give the user flexibility in running off of multiple types of power service, including three-phase 400v. When the amp puts out that kind of current, a beefy service connection is required.
 

rpokuls

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But others could wire up a plug to the amps hardwired input, but it would look more like your Dryers plug :cool:

But others could wire up a plug to the amps hardwired input, but it would look more like your Dryers plug :cool:
IMHO, I wouldn't even mention things like dryers or ovens. We'll just get into another big argument over
whether or not expensive power cables for dryers or ovens will make your clothes smell fresher or your
food taste better.
 

Carlsbad

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I'm late to the street brawl but I'll jump in and give you my opinion. It is probably worth what you pay for it. But I do have a physics degree from U of Chicago and 2 darn fine sounding systems:

1. Anything that has an amplifier I put a 10awg generic power cable on it. Amps, especially bass amps, need access to a lot of current for very short periods of time. I've even seen an 8 wpc tube amp that weighs 14 lbs struggle with a 14 awg cable.
2. I think $1000 power cables are snake oil. i do believe in very high quality cables in the signal path but in the power path, you just need size. Those who try to tune their system with power cables are probably tuning it with alcohol.
3. So that means 10 awg cable ($50 on amazon, but take it apart and check the connections) is good for any modern ML with a powered woofer. If you have old electrostat only, you probably can't put too small a cable on them to hurt them. They don't power the music, they power an electrostatic field on the membrane (static means no current flow). But big membranes need big speaker cables and a big amp. They are power hogs. So put your money into speaker cables.
4. NEVER put any passive or "filter" type power conditioner upstream of an amp (including the amp in your ML speaker). they limit dynamic power. Like I said above, amps need access to high currents for short periods of time for dynamics, especially bass dynamics. Your amp may have nameplate power usage of 300 watts, which would be fine with an 18 awg cord. But you'd be a fool to power it up with an 18awg power cord.
5. If it doesn't have an amp (DACs, Streamers, etc) then going to an upgraded or heavy power cable is probably a waste of time. The cable that came with it is probably fine.

Disclosure: I installed a 10 awg dedicated 240V circuit to my stereo. I also have a PS Audio PP10 regenerator.

Jerry
 
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