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Hello,
Prior to switching to a ML HT, I was using Paradigm Studio 100 V.2's, Studio CC, and Studio 60's. I also had a ML Aerius i based 2 channel setup.

I am quite fond of Paradigm. I am still not nor will I ever be happy about Paradigm building ML ESL's. Sadly, nothing is going to change this now.

I do not see how anyone can argue that ML's direction is moving towards low priced non Electrostatic Speakers. Every announcement with the exception of the ironically named Ethos are fairly conventional Speakers. The Motion Series starts as low as 199 Dollars.
Cheers,
ML
 
i have Paradigm Monitor 11's and a CC370 for my front 3 speakers in my livingroom theater and really like them. the 3 plus a sub(PS1200 i use in the music room) were timbre matched and sold as a set which wasnt exactly cheap 8 yrs ago when they were new. as for Paradigm now, they are really getting rave reviews on their new products, i even read Jeffs review that was favorable too so maybe your being a little quick to judge them as a company.

i can respect healthy debate, but this thread is mostly very negative in nature, and in no way balanced in this regard. how many times do some of you need to repeat yourselves before you believe it? everyone else heard you the first second and third time, now your your just beating that dead horse to a bloody pulp and looking pretty damn petty in the process. some of the opinions here make me wonder if you know how to even have fun or enjoy life? is all this a fun hobby for you or not. anything that would make me this negative and down right nasty would be first on my list to remove from my life.

but take my thoughts with a grain of salt as my hifi resume is lacking and so i probably dont know what im talking about.

....now back to my tunes.:music:
 
JMAUSG My guess is the sales guy at BB made the argument that you know said:
Your giving the BB guy a lot of credit. From the majority of stories that are told ( and my experience there ) they usually have little enough knowledge about ML speakers let alone know the company had been sold and who the new owners are.
 
but take my thoughts with a grain of salt as my hifi resume is lacking and so i probably dont know what im talking about.

Point well-taken. Since you don't own electrostatic speakers, perhaps you don't understand the love affair that some of us have for them. Many of us on this forum have owned ML and other electrostats for a decade or more and have become pretty attached to them and to the company that produces them. If you have never visited the factory and met the people that have handmade these speakers for decades, perhaps you don't appreciate the impact that some of us feel from this decision. But just remember that you are on a forum dedicated to this brand, so you are likely to find people here who are very passionate about the decisions made by current management and the overall future direction of the company. That shouldn't be too surprising.

I'm all for healthy debate too, and a positive outlook. But I am also a realist and not one to stick my head in the sand and just hope things work out for the best. If anyone has any facts to put forth to show Martin Logan is headed in a more positive direction than negative, I would be happy to hear them. But I'm just not hearing much in that regard other than empty platitudes from their marketing director and "look on the bright side" from folks who have nothing more than that to offer.

I don't think anyone is "judging Paradigm" in a negative manner. In fact, I specifically asked the question to learn more about them because I honestly have never heard them and don't know that much about them. What we are judging is the management decisions made by Shoreview, which is an investment company that now owns Paradigm/Martin Logan, along with dozens of other companies. And believe me, first and foremost, I hope that I am completely wrong with all of my negative comments. But until I see some facts to support that notion, I am not going to just go along and pretend everything is hunky-dory.
 
If anyone has any facts to put forth to show Martin Logan is headed in a more positive direction than negative, I would be happy to hear them. But I'm just not hearing much in that regard other than empty platitudes from their marketing director and "look on the bright side" from folks who have nothing more than that to offer.

Rich, I wish I could tell you something that would make you all warm and fuzzy, but these are uncertain times my friend, so anything I say will obviously not sit right with you. But, you don't really have an inside look into the company, so I won't hold it against you. ;)

What I can tell you is that while looking over our 3 year product plan, there are new ESL models in the lineup (among them, the Ethos shown at CES and already discussed here on the forum - http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10513), along with some other interesting product categories new to MartinLogan. So the assumption that ESL products go away, or that no new engineering development or research will happen is 100% completely false. By all indications, we're just getting started.

Fears about QC? Well, only time will prove that one, so there's not much more I can add there.

So instead of reading silently all the wild speculation and fear you guys have, I'll answer any questions I can directly and honestly.

So fire away.

~Justin

P.S. Although this is a great way to communicate, I'm also available directly, in person, an actual human voice, in Kansas, at 785-749-0133. Don't be shy!
 
thanks justin :) unfortunately there are none believers within our midsts. I personally have not spent many thousands on speakers I love to just bash them at the first sign of change within management and manufacture.
 
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Hello,
Are you serious? Non believer's? More like people who are disheartened to find out only through a local Newspaper Article that all Martin Logans will now be made out of the Country. Again, from a Company that calls itself "The All American Speaker Company".

I have not read one post from any of us "non believers" saying we are selling our Speakers and will never buy from ML again. Rather, however you want to slice it, the majority of what has been released and formally announced has been in the lower priced realm. In addition, the prices of Replacement Panels have risen by a large amount.

There has been no "bashing" of the Speakers. Just bashing of how clandestine the whole moving of Production has been.
Cheers,
ML
 
So instead of reading silently all the wild speculation and fear you guys have, I'll answer any questions I can directly and honestly.

So fire away.

~Justin

P.S. Although this is a great way to communicate, I'm also available directly, in person, an actual human voice, in Kansas, at 785-749-0133. Don't be shy!

Thanks for the heads up and some insight.
Will we be able to still get the older (CLS ) panels? and will they be made in Canada and is there going to be a price change ?
 
OK guys,

Here's an attempt to perhaps steer this in another direction. That is to provide some specific examples of the type of ML product that one would like to see in the future.

So Justin, here's mine.

I want ML to make a larger ML stat based on the Summit topology.

Physical dimensions: total height of 66" (excluding spikes); panel width of 18"; panel height of 54".

Think a Summit on steroids with a panel size similar to the larger legacy models.

This is a product that I would seriously consider buying to replace my beloved Summits. Still size friendly with a substantial bump in overall performance.

As much as I love the looks of the CLX, it's too flippin big for me and any room I am likely to have in the future.

Other Club ideas / suggestions for ML to consider?

GG

PS: A call to arms for those folks who can work with with "photoshop" software. Let's see some renderings. In all view angles of course.
 
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OK guys,

Here's an attempt to perhaps steer this in another direction. That is to provide some specific examples of the type of ML product that one would like to see in the future.

So Justin, here's mine.

I want ML to make a larger ML stat based on the Summit topology.

Physical dimensions: total height of 66"; panel width of 18"; panel height of 54".

Think a Summit on steroids with a panel size similar to the larger legacy models.

This is a product that I would seriously consider buying to replace my beloved Summits. Still size friendly with a substantial bump in overall performance.

As much as I love the looks of the CLX, it's too flippin big for me and any room I am likely to have in the future.

Other Club ideas / suggestions for ML to consider?

GG

summits with 10" and 15" drivers and LARGER panels with artistic like metal supports on the sides of the panels and a fully powered option! with a full set of controls on the back!
 
So instead of reading silently all the wild speculation and fear you guys have, I'll answer any questions I can directly and honestly.

So fire away.

Thanks, Justin. I appreciate you jumping back into the fire. But please understand that this is not just all "wild speculation and fear" . . . it is an expression of the legitimate concerns of people who have owned Martin Logan ESL speakers for over a decade and who remember how the company was run by the man who founded it. With that said, let's get to the questions:

1. Given that there is now one CEO/President presiding over both brands and ML production has moved to the Paradigm facility, has there been or is there planned an actual merger of these two companies/brands? If so, why has this not been publicized? If not, then how would you characterize it?

2. Do you intend to use Paradigm-built cone speaker drivers in the Martin Logan hybrid speakers built at the Paradigm facility, or do you intend to continue to outsource the cone speakers in those models? Who will be training the labor at the Paradigm facility in how to build an ESL panel?

3. As you are aware from my posts, I am concerned that your product expansion in the home theater arena is going to limit your desire/ability to R&D the higher end ESL line. Along those lines, are you expanding the R&D department, contracting it, or is it staying the same? Do you have any intention to develop a flagship model beyond the CLX (in other words, will there be another CLX or Statement-level product once the CLX has run its natural course)?

4. I understand that replacements for the Vista and Vantage are in order soon as those models are long in the tooth, and that it is natural to maybe fit another model into the price range between the Vantage and Spire. I am much more interested in knowing whether there are any new models planned at the higher end, say above the Spire. Anything between the Spire and the Summit X or between the Summit X and the CLX in your three year plan? I understand if you are limited in your ability to divulge any of this information at this time.

5. Is there R&D work going toward improving the CLX (i.e. a CLX i model) and/or coming up with other full-range ESL (i.e. non-hybrid) panel speaker models? Any work going toward making a full-range ESL model with a smaller footprint than the CLX, or with deeper bass response than the CLX, or both (We can dream, right?)?

6. Is there a plan to shut down the Lawrence facility within the next three to five years, or will you continue to maintain R&D, customer service, and distribution from that facility?

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure others will have some as well.
 
Fish,

When you say a full set of controls, what do you mean?

Gordon

amp bypass,tone slopes for all drivers perhaps even an eq for the low freq with on screen display outputs! and microphone hookup for room correction. I imagine there would be room with the extra large case for the 15" these devices are just basicaly one board now anyway,ability to shut of 15' for night listening,
 
Thanks for the heads up and some insight.
Will we be able to still get the older (CLS ) panels? and will they be made in Canada and is there going to be a price change ?

Yes we will continue to provide replacement panels for some older models (just like we do now), but as time moves forward we simply can't support EVERY model, especially the older ones. This isn't a decision based on moving production, and would be exactly the same if we weren't. To answer the second part, yes they will be made in Canada, and there will be no price change*.

As to your specific model, the CLS, I can find out tomorrow and let you know the specifics.

* Note: Prices DO change over time as material costs increase, but no specific increase as a result of this move.

~Justin
 
OK guys,

Here's an attempt to perhaps steer this in another direction. That is to provide some specific examples of the type of ML product that one would like to see in the future.

So Justin, here's mine.

I want ML to make a larger ML stat based on the Summit topology.

Physical dimensions: total height of 66" (excluding spikes); panel width of 18"; panel height of 54".

Think a Summit on steroids with a panel size similar to the larger legacy models.

This is a product that I would seriously consider buying to replace my beloved Summits. Still size friendly with a substantial bump in overall performance.

As much as I love the looks of the CLX, it's too flippin big for me and any room I am likely to have in the future.

Other Club ideas / suggestions for ML to consider?

GG

I'm ALWAYS open to suggestions. And yes, we read this forum, and so do our engineers. So by all means, give us your input. Of course, that's not a promise that any ONE suggestion or idea will happen (or even work), but there's nothing wrong with keeping the discussion open!

As far as CLUB/COMMUNITY suggestions, I'd like to hear those, too. Bringing our core customers closer to MartinLogan and to each other is a major goal of mine, so again, don't be shy.

~Justin
 
oh just one more thing that might be more reasonable.I would like to see the spire and summit type speakers with an amp bypass so for those of us who decide to spend like $20,000.00 DOLLARS on a set of McIntosh,Krell, or whatever high end amps we can listen to only that amp from your speakers. thanks Justin.
 
Yes we will continue to provide replacement panels for some older models (just like we do now), but as time moves forward we simply can't support EVERY model, especially the older ones. This isn't a decision based on moving production, and would be exactly the same if we weren't. To answer the second part, yes they will be made in Canada, and there will be no price change*.

As to your specific model, the CLS, I can find out tomorrow and let you know the specifics.

* Note: Prices DO change over time as material costs increase, but no specific increase as a result of this move.

~Justin
oh snap! as far as I knew the only panels they did not make anymore was for the original statements.
 
Hello,
This is the first that I have read of no longer offering support for Legacy Models. If I owned Monoliths, Sequels, Quest, Logos, etc, I would buy Replacement Panels now.

The realization that Replacement Panels for Legacy Models will at some point no longer be available, will definitely impact resale values.

For our Members with Legacy Models, would it be possible to find out which Models will no longer have Replacement Panels available?
Cheers,
ML
 
1. Given that there is now one CEO/President presiding over both brands and ML production has moved to the Paradigm facility, has there been or is there planned an actual merger of these two companies/brands? If so, why has this not been publicized? If not, then how would you characterize it?

No. Merging two companies with completely different products & distribution would be foolish. Instead, we now have the opportunity to share technologies, testing & measuring equipment, and other synergies (I know, I hate that word, too). For example, instead of THREE engineering groups trying to solve similar problems separately, we now have the chance to work together.

2. Do you intend to use Paradigm-built cone speaker drivers in the Martin Logan hybrid speakers built at the Paradigm facility, or do you intend to continue to outsource the cone speakers in those models?

This is certainly an example where there is opportunity to bring back production to North America, which in my mind, would be a win. For now, I believe that sourcing for existing products will remain the same, BUT the ML team will be working hard on using the strengths of the new facility in the future; cone speaker manufacturing would be one of those possibilities we could now certainly investigate.

Who will be training the labor at the Paradigm facility in how to build an ESL panel?

Rob Zimmerman, who has been with MartinLogan for over 19 years building ESL panels, has already started the process. It's hard work and from what I hear, he's doing a great job. As previously pointed out, this won't happen overnight, but with people like Rob leading the way, I have a lot of faith.

3. As you are aware from my posts, I am concerned that your product expansion in the home theater arena is going to limit your desire/ability to R&D the higher end ESL line. Along those lines, are you expanding the R&D department, contracting it, or is it staying the same? Do you have any intention to develop a flagship model beyond the CLX (in other words, will there be another CLX or Statement-level product once the CLX has run its natural course)?

Now here's where you need to change your thinking a bit. Creating "friendly" home theater was LONG overdue from MartinLogan, and the Motion series was the direct answer to that absence. I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats," but that's certainly the case here. If anything, more demand for the ML brand will create more opportunity for high end products. By contrast, if there's no growth in a shrinking ultra-high-end market, and that's all we sold, where would be moving forward?

Just as side note based on my own personal experiences in the industry, the Motion Series is anything BUT "low-fi." A lot of time, energy and engineering has gone into finding the best technologies that mesh well with the basic principles of our ESL sound. That's one reason why I wanted to get these in the hands of our core customers, because I can say just about anything, but the real test will be from those most closely familiar with ML's signature sound (that's you guys!). More to come on this, but we'll be extending a lot more "trials" with you guys with upcoming products, including ESL products.

Hmmm...a flagship above the CLX? Well, I'm afraid I can't provide any answers to that one, I guess you'll have to wait and see. :)

4. I understand that replacements for the Vista and Vantage are in order soon as those models are long in the tooth, and that it is natural to maybe fit another model into the price range between the Vantage and Spire. I am much more interested in knowing whether there are any new models planned at the higher end, say above the Spire. Anything between the Spire and the Summit X or between the Summit X and the CLX in your three year plan? I understand if you are limited in your ability to divulge any of this information at this time.

5. Is there R&D work going toward improving the CLX (i.e. a CLX i model) and/or coming up with other full-range ESL (i.e. non-hybrid) panel speaker models? Any work going toward making a full-range ESL model with a smaller footprint than the CLX, or with deeper bass response than the CLX, or both (We can dream, right?)?

The Ethos won't be a replacement for the Vista/Vantage, but fall somewhere between Vantage and Spire.

Even if I wanted to, I can't say one way or another on the rest of these questions. But a question for you, what type of product, and what features, would you want to see in a product between the Spire/Summit X/CLX?

6. Is there a plan to shut down the Lawrence facility within the next three to five years, or will you continue to maintain R&D, customer service, and distribution from that facility?

No. Everything else remains in Kansas. Good thing, cause I just moved here in August from Maryland! Needless to say, I wouldn't be too happy about that.

I hope that answered your questions, that's as best I can do!

~Justin
 
Hello,
For our Members with Legacy Models, would it be possible to find out which Models will no longer have Replacement Panels available?
Cheers,
ML

I will find out details and let you know as soon as I know.

~Justin
 

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