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Hi-Def DVD is coming, where do you stand?

MartinLogan Owners (MLO)

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Ware do you stand?

  • I will get a Blu-Ray player ASAP.

    Votes: 6 12.8%
  • I will get a HD-DVD player ASAP.

    Votes: 5 10.6%
  • I will wait for a universal player that does both.

    Votes: 23 48.9%
  • I am fine with current DVD’s.

    Votes: 10 21.3%
  • I don’t care.

    Votes: 3 6.4%

  • Total voters
    47

Reverb

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Hi-Def DVD is gearing up for release this Christmas, with two format competing for your hard-earned money.

Sony is standing strong with its Blu-Ray Hi-Def format, and is planning to have a Blu-ray drive in ever Playstation 3.

Toshiba is standing tall with its HD-DVD. Blu-Ray has more disk space but movies will coast a bit more then HD-DVD’s to produce. Unfortunately new hardware will be need to produce Blu-Ray disk and that mean a higher startup coast, apposed to HD-DVD which can use the same manufacturing used now for DVD’s (little retooling will be needed), and that will make HD-DVD software cheaper.

What format do you support?
 

socialxray

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I am Blu thru and thru baby!

It is just a superior technology that will not be pushed to its limits in 10 years they way DVD is today. HD-DVD is evolutionary but Blu-Ray is a leap forward. The concerns with being more suseptible to scratches has been resolved. The fact that it can contain 40% more data per layer and more layers than HD-DVD get the thumbs up from me. I don't want to be upgrading to a new format in 10 years. Besides, Sony has never launched a format that was not well thought out. It may not have made it in the marketplace (betamax, mini disc) but it always worked as advertised.

I keep hearing the arguement that Blu-Ray costs more to manufacture which I think is a smokescreen because nobody has come out and said how much more. The rumor of Blu-Ray costing the consumer more is just fear-mongering on the HD-DVD side. (Honestly they ain't got much else to say against Blu-Ray.) If you create a market, manufacturers will be there to reap the profits no matter how much the startup costs are.

How do you create a market? Enter the PS3 which is suppose to launch in spring 2006. (Ars-technica stated that if Xbox 360 does not launch well that PS3 will launch in 2007 instead. I tend not to believe this because of many factors and one of those factors is Blu-Ray.) If Sony bundles a Blu-Ray movie with the first million PS3's this will create momentum. If you have any doubts about that just look at the PSP and the UMD format. Spider-man 2 on UMD format was bundled with the first million PSPs and now the UMD movie format is making money. Much to the surprise of everyone. This is a format that got just about zero press before launch.

Now that's all the technical stuff which to average consumers doesn't mean a thing. It is the end product that matters and the end product is effected by content and availability.

If Sony wasn't involved in making movies they probably could have gotten all of the studios on board. But unfortunately the studios are split down the middle. And that is the only reason we are having this debate right now. Content is king.

Ironically Best Buy (believe it or not) is in the best position to settle things once and for all. They have stated that they are not interested in competing formats and will only support one. Now that may change but if it does not then availability may dictate the winner.

As for me, make mine Blu-Ray
 

Robin

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socialxray said:
It is just a superior technology that will not be pushed to its limits in 10 years they way DVD is today. HD-DVD is evolutionary but Blu-Ray is a leap forward. The concerns with being more suseptible to scratches has been resolved. The fact that it can contain 40% more data per layer and more layers than HD-DVD get the thumbs up from me. I don't want to be upgrading to a new format in 10 years. Besides, Sony has never launched a format that was not well thought out. It may not have made it in the marketplace (betamax, mini disc) but it always worked as advertised.
I am in total agreement with, socialxray.

I find it interesting, that when, Sony and Toshiba, were in high level negociations, a few months ago, they just could not come to an agreement... It seems, Toshiba had been touting, that they had technological gear, which can read all types of formates; Blue / Red or HD-DVD. Sony was being steadfast, advocating Blue-Ray, due to the large amount of information, they can hold, at least 47 gig.'s / disc. Sony, wanted a format, for future growth. I really think, it is extremely unfortunate, that these hudge companies, can not even argee. I know, people will say it's, that they are just being greedy... I think it is much more than that... I think, it is who will have more prestige... Who will be, the one to be persieved, to be the leader... Who will save face... IMHO, I beleive, they all have egg on their faces, in this controversal, marketing / format war, they have begun. :(

As for me, make mine Blu-Ray
Me too... I am with you, socialxray.

Saddly, let the, 'electronic-gear format wars' begin.... unfortunately, we will all be on side, or the other. :(

-Robin
 
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Kruppy

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From what I've read, Blu-Ray has the technological advantage.

Advantage or no advantage, I'm not spending any of my money unless 1) player costs are reasonably low for my middle class income to handle 2) costs are reasonably low and there's a universal player 3) one format skewers the other and there's no other competitor on the horizon. :cool:

I don't know about the rest of you, but my wallet and equity line of credit are tired of my closet of outdated and worthless (although expensive at the time) equipment. :mad:
 

Jeff Zaret

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I really did not want to enter in to this debate. I do agree with Kruppy.

Part of the problem with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is ego. Maybe I am too old or too wise but to me it is obvious. Yes, Blu-Ray has an advantage of greater storage but that is about it. There are increased costs, no backward compatibility and from what I have read there will be greater "fallout" in the the manufacturing process and greater failure in the market place. This is due to a thinner substrate about 1/6th the size of current cd & DVD's if my memory is correct. There will have to be new equipment designed to be able to handle the offset in disk thickness and with that comes a greater "wobble" of the disk so new logic and possible a more forgiving laser electronics.

To me this does not sound like a step forward. It still sounds like a "beta" release of a product to market to gain marketshare to fund the further research and development of a product.

Neither "camp", Blu-Ray or HD-DVD wants to back down or step aside so the other technology can progress. I believe this is the real reason why they did not come to a workable solution, ego and possible market share. Can we say the Sony ElCassette, MD disk, quadrophonic music, Betamax vs VHS, to name a few.

The only true way to get their attention is not to buy anything. Having the Blu-Ray technoogy in the PS3 or HD-DVD in the XBox360 is a small percentage and a commodity market. Think about how many different stereo companies have come and gone because of fads or a quick hit in the marketplace. The true survivors, for the most part, offer good quality and consistency with their product line.
I, for one, am in no hurry to fund this project.

Enough soap box!

Jeff :cool:
 

Kruppy

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Amen Brother Jeff....

Jeff,
You wrote exactly what I wanted to, but didn't have the time last night.
 

asindc

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Jeff Zaret said:
The only true way to get their attention is not to buy anything. Having the Blu-Ray technoogy in the PS3 or HD-DVD in the XBox360 is a small percentage and a commodity market. Think about how many different stereo companies have come and gone because of fads or a quick hit in the marketplace. The true survivors, for the most part, offer good quality and consistency with their product line.
I, for one, am in no hurry to fund this project.

Enough soap box!

Jeff :cool:
Jeff,

You're definitely not alone on this. My fear is that Bluray is the digital version of Betamax, whose tombstone reads, "I was the better one, dammit!"

I'm definitely not buying anything new regarding the new formats until they make nice or at least learn to coexist. I feel somewhat foolish for thinking they had learned their lesson with the first DVD format truce. Man, was I wrong! :mad:

Anthony
 
T

Taz

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I agree with holding off. Just like High rez audio. DVD as been the quickest growing tech. There was one format and it was better!! It succeed quickly. I have a Denon 3910 into a great display I am in no hurry to upgrade till I see a great improvement with lots of software. A few select titles or like SACD one or two genres wont do it.
 

Reverb

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THIS JUST IN FROM audiorevolution.com

HD-DVD In Trouble As Blu-ray Gains Momentum


The Hollywood Reporter is reporting that HD-DVD’s pre-Christmas release might not make as big of a splash as once thought. The high-definition disc format backed by Toshiba suffered a loss of support from 20th Century Fox last week and The Reporter is suggesting that the other two Hollywood studios now backing HD-DVD are getting wedding day jitters.

HD-DVD has some distinct advantages, including a superior name. Everyone in the world knows what a DVD is. They also know what HDTV is. The marriage of the two is a natural. One thing that consumers find unnatural and even repulsive is the idea of a format war and it seems Hollywood studio execs have learned their lessons from the Beta-VHS and SACD-DVD-Audio battles. In the SACD-DVD-Audio battle, consumers and entertainment executives learned it is possible for all parties involved to lose. Consumers hold the power and they want one HDTV disc format and they will spend for it.

The process of getting a movie from its archive to a Blu-ray or HD-DVD disc isn’t rocket science. Movies are normally stored on D-5 master tapes and require a relatively simple down-conversion to get to an accepted HDTV format like 720p or 1080i. The audio for most movies made after 1990 or movies that have been released on DVD is mixed for 5.1 home theater systems. Mixing and audio mastering houses can fine-tune soundtracks for movies in surround in a matter of weeks. All of this adds up to a likely pre-holiday launch for one or both formats.

Now is the time the Blu-ray camp needs to make friends and influence people at Toshiba and the HD-DVD group. Months ago, there were talks to merge the two formats. Because the next generation Playstation is based on Blu-ray, that format folding was unlikely. Now they have the momentum. Perhaps for a taste of the royalty stream, Toshiba and friends will join forces with Sony and the Blu-ray camp. It is what consumers want and they have their Platinum cards cocked and loaded to pump more money into the system than the studios have ever seen before.
 

Robin

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Blue-Ray...

Zip3kx07 said:
THIS JUST IN FROM audiorevolution.com

HD-DVD In Trouble As Blu-ray Gains Momentum
Joe,

Have you heard anything more about the status of Blue-Ray? Are any more of the motion picture studio's signing up? What have you heard lately? :D

Cheers :D

-Robin
 

Reverb

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Yep,

I don’t think we will see any universal HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drives because every movie studio but one has singed on for Blu-Ray, and Toshiba is loosing support. At this point Toshiba may get their HD-DVD players out first but there will be very little if any support.

Everyone has singed on for Blu-Ray be cause the drive will be in the PlayStation 3 when it releases spring of ’06 for an estimated price between $400 and $500 US. For anyone wanting to get a Hi-Def DVD format Blu-Ray is your best bet, the only question is will the consumer market pick-up on it like they did with DVD.

Stay tuned; Sony will announce Blu-Ray at CES’06 in January. I hope they will spill the bean on their plans for the PS3 launch at the same time.

2006 is looking to be an expensive year. :D
 

Robin

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Blue-Ray...

Zip3kx07 said:
Yep,

I don’t think we will see any universal HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drives because every movie studio but one has singed on for Blu-Ray, and Toshiba is loosing support. At this point Toshiba may get their HD-DVD players out first but there will be very little if any support.

Everyone has singed on for Blu-Ray be cause the drive will be in the PlayStation 3 when it releases spring of ’06 for an estimated price between $400 and $500 US. For anyone wanting to get a Hi-Def DVD format Blu-Ray is your best bet, the only question is will the consumer market pick-up on it like they did with DVD.

Stay tuned; Sony will announce Blu-Ray at CES’06 in January. I hope they will spill the bean on their plans for the PS3 launch at the same time.

2006 is looking to be an expensive year. :D
Joe,

Thank you very much for all of the excellent information regarding Blue-Ray... :D I just knew, you knew the latest intell... :D You are correct, 2006 is shaping-up to be a very expensive year.... :eek:

Thanks again,

Cheers

-Robin
 

socialxray

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Well it looks like the future is not in HD unless you shell out some serious cash for a new player AND a new TV. That is unless you have HDMI inputs in which case you may or may not see HD depending on if your HDMI implementation supports copy protection. Here is a nice article on the subject.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060122-6027.html

On a side note, here is a qoute from MSNBC.com from a studio head that shows the entertainment industry's blantant disregard for their consumers. The context of the quote is a discussion on releasing movies on DVD and in theaters on the same day.

The way it works now, a hit movie plays in theaters for six weeks or so. Four months later it comes out on DVD. ...They worry that if you could buy a DVD on opening weekend, they'd get your money only once. "Since when is it a constitutional right that you can have everything you want all on the same day?" says the studio head. But if that's what the consumer prefers ... "Well, I'd prefer a beach house in Malibu, but that doesn't mean I get one."

Don't get me wrong, I am all for people making as much money as they possible can in a fair and ethical manner. BUT what other industry treats their customers this way?

Anyways here is the link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10853264/site/newsweek/
 

amey01

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Why didn't they make the original DVD high definition and all of this would be irrelevant? Why can't people think ahead - the last thing I want to do is go out and buy another DVD player - then have an old obsolete one sitting around that still works perfectly. Its just a colossal waste of money, waste of the environment / resources and waste of everyone's time!

How much plastic and toxins are going to end up as landfill because of these money making, consumer ripping off idiots?
 

Robin

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Profits or The Bottom Line...

amey01 said:
Why didn't they make the original DVD high definition and all of this would be irrelevant? Why can't people think ahead - the last thing I want to do is go out and buy another DVD player - then have an old obsolete one sitting around that still works perfectly. Its just a colossal waste of money, waste of the environment / resources and waste of everyone's time!

How much plastic and toxins are going to end up as landfill because of these money making, consumer ripping off idiots?
amey01,

I agree totally. It seems silly to me too, as Hi-Def has been around for a long time. I know you know the Electronic Manufacturers and Film Studios are not too worried about thinking ahead when they can make double the profits from the same 'poor saps', I mean 'their consumers'. I feel they just don't care too much about it, they just get richer and richer and of course thats all good... We are kind of caught in the middle footing the bill. :( It is very frustrating I agree, amey01. :eek:
 
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68sting

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I'm surprised to hear a lot of people here are going to wait on the HD dvd players. I would assume that most people here would not think twice about spending $500 on cables (or many other mods)for there system with minimal effects. The difference between HD and standard dvd on my 115" front projector is huge, probably one of the biggest upgrades to my HT per dollar I can think of. If I can pick up a hd player for $500, and if it peters out for one reason or another in a couple of years, I could probably live with that. I do agree blue ray is a better format but if their players are double I might go with the hd-dvd because of the uncertainty involved. In the end it will be the number of movies available. If I can go to blockbuster and pick up all the new releases in one format or another, that will be the determaning factor. I'm ready to get beat up on this one.
 

Reverb

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amey01 and Robin,

The reason why we got DVD 480p and not 720p/1080i was because when DVD was being designed HDTV’s were not out yet. Why produce a consumer product, when the consumers can’t use it yet? The DVD player hit the states back in 1997, the HDTV hit the states around late 1998 early 1999, and they were about $10,000 for a basic CRT rear projection. Now that the TV’s are in place we are seeing more, and more HD materal because the consumer is ready.

Do you remember the 2003 release of Terminator 2: judgment day? That was the first DVD to include a WMP9 HD-video transfer. To run that HD transfer on your PC you needed at least a 3Ghz processor, 512MB ram, and a 128MB/3D video card. PC’s did not make the jump to 1Ghz processors until 1999. So can you imagine what it would have taken for Sony or Toshiba to create a player that could play back 1080 video in 1997? An act of god. Or maybe $20,000 a player.

Good thing's come to those who wait, and if we skipped DVD and went strait to HD-DVD we would probably still be getting it now because of the development of the Blue laser, which is what makes Hi-Def DVD a reality.
 
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Reverb

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68sting said:
I'm surprised to hear a lot of people here are going to wait on the HD dvd players. I would assume that most people here would not think twice about spending $500 on cables (or many other mods)for there system with minimal effects. The difference between HD and standard dvd on my 115" front projector is huge, probably one of the biggest upgrades to my HT per dollar I can think of. If I can pick up a hd player for $500, and if it peters out for one reason or another in a couple of years, I could probably live with that. I do agree blue ray is a better format but if their players are double I might go with the hd-dvd because of the uncertainty involved. In the end it will be the number of movies available. If I can go to blockbuster and pick up all the new releases in one format or another, that will be the determaning factor. I'm ready to get beat up on this one.
People would be more restive to it if there were only one format to choose from. Unfortunately the thought of buying a player and software and having it go obsolete a year later will keep most people away. It looks like a lot of people are chousing HD-DVD because of the price tag, but it is still too early to tell and this does not guarantee it will succeed. Personally I think the fact the Playstation 3 will support Blu-Ray is reason enough for me to stick with Blu-Ray, because I fell even if HD-DVD wins the PS3 will still have enough pull to keep the movies flowing and my collection growing. IF HD-DVD looses that it, its dead, make the switch to Blu-Ray because there is no reason for the industry to keep supporting HD-DVD.

I see Blu-Ray as a win, win format and HD-DVD as a pass for fail.

Here is a list of industry support for the two formats.


Blu-Ray
Studio Support
1. Sony (Columbia, Tristar, MGM, Sony Pictures Classics)
2. 20th Century Fox
3. Paramount (DreamWorks SKG.)
4. Disney
5. Warner Brothers (WB, New Line)
6. Lion's Gate
7. Eagle Rock Entertainment
8. TBS/Angel Seekers
9. Asmik Ace Entertainment, Inc.
10. Bandai Visual CO. LTD.
11. Digital Playground (adult movies)

Studios Withholding Support
1. Universal (Universal, DreamWorks SKG)

Consumer Electronics Manufacturers
1. Sony
2. Sharp
3. Phillips
4. Pioneer
5. Samsung
6. Hitachi
7. Panasonic
8. LG
9. Mitsubishi
10. JVC
11. RCA
12. Yamaha
13. Sanyo

Computer Companies
1. Sony
2. Dell
3. Apple
4. HP? <-Still Listed on Blu-Ray website, correct me if I'm wrong.

Game Consoles
Sony Playstation 3 - Native Support





HD-DVD
Studio Support
1. Paramount
2. Warner Brothers (WB, New Line)
3. Universal (Universal, DreamWorks SKG)
4. Studio Canal
5. The Weinstein Co.

Studios Withholding Support
1. Sony (Columbia, Tristar, MGM, Sony Pictures Classics)
2. Disney
3. 20th Century Fox
4. Lion's Gate

Consumer Electronics Manufacturers
1. Toshiba
2. RCA
3. LG
4. Sanyo

Computer Companies
1. Toshiba
2. HP
3. Microsoft
4. Intel

Game Consoles
x-Box 360 - Not Native, Add On or 2nd Generation
 
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