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Any experience with Summit break in?

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kuebler

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Yesterday my Summits finished their travel over the Atlantic and arrived at my home. Because I didn't have time, I only exchanged the Clarity front speakers against the Summits and quickly let some 7.1 music play for checking whether everything was ok. It appeared ok, and I even had the subjective impression of an improvement.

Some hours later, just for curiosity, I quickly let them play music in stereo. Boy, how was I shocked! Nearly no bass at all! Not zero, but close to it. I have difficulty with the english terms, but I would describe the sound as highly tinny, or better outright squawky, to the degree I would expect from a bad small portable battery radio. Of course the mids and highs were not like from such a radio, but I'm trying to describe the sonal balance characteristics. And I'm definitively not exaggerating, as I'm sure not the type of highend guy, who gets a nervous breakdown when somebody exchanges his Nordost power cables against standard wires ;-)

I got big paranoia of something being fundamentally wrong or broken, and imagined the nightmare to have ship them back. I quickly considered whether my operation using a 1,000 VA 220->110 volt converter at 50 Hz AC frequency might cause a problem, but I couldn't see that. Then I calmed down a bit and got some relief from the fact, that both speakers showed the same characteristics. So it appeared unlikely that both would have the same defect.

I increased the bass at the receiver until the tonal balance was no longer so ridiculous. From this I guesstimate that the bass weakness is at least 10 db!

The Summit manual tells about break in, "they will sound a bit bass shy". A bit bass shy! The understatement of the year!

At the moment I have them running in a closed room with lots of bass emphasized pink noise being pumped into them, in order to reach the announced 72 hours maybe a bit earlier.

But I would be interested in comments of others: can this all be such as I appear to experience it?
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
Yesterday my Summits finished their travel over the Atlantic and arrived at my home. Because I didn't have time, I only exchanged the Clarity front speakers against the Summits and quickly let some 7.1 music play for checking whether everything was ok. It appeared ok, and I even had the subjective impression of an improvement.

Some hours later, just for curiosity, I quickly let them play music in stereo. Boy, how was I shocked! Nearly no bass at all! Not zero, but close to it. I have difficulty with the english terms, but I would describe the sound as highly tinny, or better outright squawky, to the degree I would expect from a bad small portable battery radio. Of course the mids and highs were not like from such a radio, but I'm trying to describe the sonal balance characteristics. And I'm definitively not exaggerating, as I'm sure not the type of highend guy, who gets a nervous breakdown when somebody exchanges his Nordost power cables against standard wires ;-)

I got big paranoia of something being fundamentally wrong or broken, and imagined the nightmare to have ship them back. I quickly considered whether my operation using a 1,000 VA 220->110 volt converter at 50 Hz AC frequency might cause a problem, but I couldn't see that. Then I calmed down a bit and got some relief from the fact, that both speakers showed the same characteristics. So it appeared unlikely that both would have the same defect.

I increased the bass at the receiver until the tonal balance was no longer so ridiculous. From this I guesstimate that the bass weakness is at least 10 db!

The Summit manual tells about break in, "they will sound a bit bass shy". A bit bass shy! The understatement of the year!

At the moment I have them running in a closed room with lots of bass emphasized pink noise being pumped into them, in order to reach the announced 72 hours maybe a bit earlier.

But I would be interested in comments of others: can this all be such as I appear to experience it?
Hola don Falk...gee, I don't know what could be wrong...all I can say is that the Summits have BIG BASS!!!...and no matter how big or small is your room. Look at the binding posts...perhaps they are loose, and not making contact...the plate that goes from the red highs to the red lows and check also the negative plate. Make sure that both are connected and both speakers...having two 10" woofers and 200 W amp for each woofer, I don't understand why you are saying that there is no bass at all. Something must be wrong or there is bad connection. Start with the knobs at their back in the midle position, you can feel at the know when it is centered. The center know is for the blue light at the top of them only. You can touch the bottom speaker if you want to see if it is moving when there is bass...
I hope this can help!!! happy listening,
Roberto.
 

MarkNewbie

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roberto said:
Hola don Falk...gee, I don't know what could be wrong...all I can say is that the Summits have BIG BASS!!!...and no matter how big or small is your room. Look at the binding posts...perhaps they are loose, and not making contact...the plate that goes from the red highs to the red lows and check also the negative plate. Make sure that both are connected and both speakers...having two 10" woofers and 200 W amp for each woofer, I don't understand why you are saying that there is no bass at all. Something must be wrong or there is bad connection. Start with the knobs at their back in the midle position, you can feel at the know when it is centered. The center know is for the blue light at the top of them only. You can touch the bottom speaker if you want to see if it is moving when there is bass...
I hope this can help!!! happy listening,
Roberto.
I was waiting to see your post here Roberto. After everything that I have read on here and other places, I figured something must be wrong. I hope that your advice can help Falk fix his issue.
 

kuebler

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roberto said:
Hola don Falk...gee, I don't know what could be wrong...all I can say is that the Summits have BIG BASS!!!...and no matter how big or small is your room. Look at the binding posts...perhaps they are loose, and not making contact...the plate that goes from the red highs to the red lows and check also the negative plate. Make sure that both are connected and both speakers...having two 10" woofers and 200 W amp for each woofer, I don't understand why you are saying that there is no bass at all. Something must be wrong or there is bad connection. Start with the knobs at their back in the midle position, you can feel at the know when it is centered. The center know is for the blue light at the top of them only. You can touch the bottom speaker if you want to see if it is moving when there is bass...
I hope this can help!!! happy listening,
Roberto.
I expected your answer as well, as I'm aware of your own new Summits.

From what you are saying I conclude the uncomforting message, that with your speakers you didn't have a lack of bass even before the break in, at least no significant lack like I have.

Of course I checked the contacts, and I've set the 25/50Hz knobs to maximum. There appears to be no principal limitation in bass output though, because with bass controls on the receiver cranked up, I can produce significant acoustic bass levels.

And I still want to stick to the logic, that a defect would be unlikely the same on both speakers. Otherwise I would get really nervous.

I'll wait for the "mini break in" during this night to finish, and will then continue testing.

Strange, very strange... :confused:
 

Reverb

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What equipment do you have?

Do you have a crossover setting on your receiver/pre-amp?

Do you have your pr-amp set to deliver a full range single to the summits or is it crossed over to send the bass info to a subwoofer?
 

roberto

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Zip3kx07 said:
What equipment do you have?

Do you have a crossover setting on your receiver/pre-amp?

Do you have your pr-amp set to deliver a full range single to the summits or is it crossed over to send the bass info to a subwoofer?
That´s also another possibility...thanks Zip3kx07...I had, long time ago, an integrated amplifier with both channels with no bass...and the problem was bad capacitors at the preamp section...the extrange thing whas that both got bad almost at the same time...I though that the problem could be an A. C. transient. The good thing was that I was able to fixed it...
Now, thinking loud with the problem with this Summits, perhaps he could go back with the rear speaker to find out if there is a bass problem or the Summits are the ones that are with a problem...hope this can help!
Regards,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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Zip3kx07 said:
What equipment do you have?

Do you have a crossover setting on your receiver/pre-amp?

Do you have your pr-amp set to deliver a full range single to the summits or is it crossed over to send the bass info to a subwoofer?
I could do only a quick test today, will have more time tomorrow. Re your questions:
- I use a Lexicon RV-8 7.1 receiver (4 weeks old) with music or several test signals.
- I have set the front speakers to full/large
- I ran the test which reveals the bass weakness with the receiver set to 2-channel-mode, i.e. only the 2 front speakers are driven, no subwoofer or other speakers get signals.
- when I drive the Summits with high level bass enhanced pink noise, then I get only about 1 cm (0.4 inch) peak-to-peak excursion, before the receiver clips the signal. With my Descent subwoofer (with comparable 10" drivers) and the same signal I get app. 3 cm pp excursion.

Although I don't like the theory: I start to feel possible, that the Summit electronics senses my 50 Hz AC power (as opposed to the 60 Hz specified for the US model) and runs the electronics driving the bass at lower amplification. Such a "systematic failure" would also explain why both speakers show the same effect. A hardware defect would be very unlikely to do so.

I would see such a 60 Hz assumption as very strange, but at present I cannot exclude it. I will do more testing tomorrow.
 
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Ralph

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What country are you in?

Are you bi-wiring with the jumpers removed, or single wiring with the jumperes in place?
 

kuebler

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Ralph said:
What country are you in?

Are you bi-wiring with the jumpers removed, or single wiring with the jumperes in place?
Germany.
Single wiring with the jumpers in place. But the same weak bass level shows, when I connect the receiver only to the bass terminals with the jumpers removed.
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
Germany.
Single wiring with the jumpers in place. But the same weak bass level shows, when I connect the receiver only to the bass terminals with the jumpers removed.
Hola don Falk...one thing that the Summits don´t have is poor bass...please change the front speakers for a quick test...and hear if you have the same problem...I think that the lack of bass must be coming from the electronics...with all respect! I can´t think of another possible problem. The 50 Hz or 60 Hz only affects the speed on A.C. motors...not the operation of an amplifier. The Summits has two power amps, one for each woofer...so there is no other way that I can think of. The Lexicon has a lot of controls, for all speakers, even if you have setted them before as large speakers...check all the settings again or and also change the Summits for the rear for just a small and quick test...hope this can help!
Roberto.
 

Reverb

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I agree with Roberto, the problem sounds like your lexicon. You might want to check your owner’s manual to see if there is a way to reset the lexicon back to default settings. If you can get it reset, go back and setup all your settings again Speaker size, position, crossovers, ETC.

Hopefully after that whatever is clipping the bass on your speakers will be undone.


Good Luck
 
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elcorso

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Hola...Falk
I also agree with Roberto, my Summit's are great in the bass= exactly matched for the ESL Panels, but I'm in the 120 volts 60 HZ side of the Atlantic Ocean, as stated in the rear of the Logan's.
I really don't know if the 50 HZ you get in Germany has an effect on your ELS panels and Bass Amp. inside, because in single-wire connection, as you are, the jumper clips sould be in place, and even if the Bass Amp. will be not affected by the 50 HZ, BUT the sum of both (ELS + Bass Amp.) feeding by the same signal (from your Lexicon) could be.
I'd made a quick research in the Web and the Lexicon RV-8 is a very sophisticated receiver, with a lot of controls and possible settings, then the Roberto suggested hard reset on this unit is great: The best way is to let it unpluged from the wall (and everything) at least for 20 minutes.
Also check the polarity of your speaker cables, one channel inverted, and the other non-inverted cause bass cancelation (and no image in the center). Sometimes the emotion we get with a new component in our audio gear, bring us to make big mistakes.
Then, please, do not play pink,white noise, o burts tones in order to burn in ANY audio component, you will destroy the midrange for a lot of days (almost a week), and don't ask me why. Play music. The way I do is playing a CD with mixed music: Classic to Heavy Metal, and let it playing in repeat mode, for several days, at normal listening level.

By the way my Summit's are the greatest speakers I own since 30 years in listening experience.

Carpe Diem
 

roberto

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Rouvin said:
Could they be hooked up out of phase?
Hola Rouvin...that's another possibility that Mr. Carpe Diem had suggested, and it could be possible. Gee, the Summits that I listened at the show and two pairs that I got here are super good in bass response and very easy to set. I wonder what it Mr. Falk problem, but I don't think that the Summits are with a fault. Thank you for your suggestion also. Many times, simple things like out of phase...
Cheers,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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60Hz problem confirmed and not solvable

Hey guys, unfortunately my bad case assumption has been confirmed true: ML has confirmed that the electronics somehow checks the AC frequency and in case of the US version blocks the amplifier, if it is not 60 Hz.

There is a conversion kit available (probably extremely simple), but this is delivered to dealers only after the speakers have been owned for at least 6 months.

Nice, very nice ...
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
Hey guys, unfortunately my bad case assumption has been confirmed true: ML has confirmed that the electronics somehow checks the AC frequency and in case of the US version blocks the amplifier, if it is not 60 Hz.

There is a conversion kit available (probably extremely simple), but this is delivered to dealers only after the speakers have been owned for at least 6 months.

Nice, very nice ...
Thank you Mr. Falk, we are learning from you!...because the Summits are so new on the market, finding problems from them, put us to think loud what could be the problem. It is good news that your problem is going to be solve...happy listening,
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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SugarMedia said:
But to wait Six (6) months on a $10,000 purchase, is pretty shitty in my opinion.
Could be considered an understatement.

My option now may be to purchase an UPS from the PC market generating 120 volt 60 Hz.

I've been a loyal and long term ML customer, and I feel treated like an idiot having no other purpose than to generate revenues. I'm really pi**ed off.
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
Could be considered an understatement.

My option now may be to purchase an UPS from the PC market generating 120 volt 60 Hz.

I've been a loyal and long term ML customer, and I feel treated like an idiot having no other purpose than to generate revenues. I'm really pi**ed off.
Hola don Falk...is Mr. Jim Power aware of your problem?...just write to him and explain your situation...I think that you deserve a special attention!!!
He is a gentleman and the service manager of ML...his address is>
jpower@martinlogan.com. I hope this can help.
Regards,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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roberto said:
Hola don Falk...is Mr. Jim Power aware of your problem?...just write to him and explain your situation...I think that you deserve a special attention!!!
He is a gentleman and the service manager of ML...his address is>
jpower@martinlogan.com. I hope this can help.
Regards,
Roberto.
I didn't want to tell names, but as you ask: I wrote to Jim Power, and the ML feedback with the 6 months blocking time came exactly from him. If you have good connections to him you might undertake to ask him, whether he could consider "a special attention" for me.
 
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Rouvin

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lubricating the contacts

Kuebler,
Gayle is a very nice person and likes good wine. Perhaps an offer of a quality German wine might lubricate the deal.
 
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