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Vantage with Grotto Subwoofer

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jjay

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I am a new member of the ML Club and have a question for your informed members. I currently have Aeon 1 speakers with a ML grotto subwoofer. I started using a sub because the Aeon 1 speakers seemed lacking in bass. I have since ordered the ML Vantage speakers( hope to have them this week).
I demoed them at the ML showroom but I could not judge well because their auditioning room was very dead sounding. My question is: will the Vantage speakers have enough bass without the Grotto subwoofer or should I still use the Grotto for low bass? I am using these speakers in a 2 ch. system as I have a separate system in another room for home theatre.
I have been reading the ML club site for months. This is a very informed group here and I would like your input.
Thanks,
JJJ
Equipment
ML Aeon 1 ( ML Vantage coming this week)
Anthem TLP-1 Pre-amplifier with subwoofer out
Rotel RB 1080 Amp
Rotel RCD-1072 CD player
 
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roberto

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jjay said:
I am a new member of the ML Club and have a question for your informed members. I currently have Aeon 1 speakers with a ML grotto subwoofer. I started using a sub because the Aeon 1 speakers seemed lacking in bass. I have since ordered the ML Vantage speakers( hope to have them this week).
I demoed them at the ML showroom but I could not judge well because their auditioning room was very dead sounding. My question is: will the Vantage speakers have enough bass with out the Grotto subwoofer or should I still use the Grotto for low bass? I am using these speakers in a 2 ch. system as I have a separate system in another room for home theatre.
I have been reading the ML club site for months. It is a very informed group here and I would like your input.
Thanks,
JJJ
Equipment
ML Aeon 1 ( ML Vantage coming this week)
Anthem TLP-1 Pre-amplifier with subwoofer out
Rotel RB 1080 Amp
Rotel RCD-1072 CD player
hola and welcome to the club. well, i think that you could use the grotto with the vantage with no problems. to match them for music only, depends a lof of the kind of music that you are playing. the vantages have a built in 200 watts digital power amplifier to drive the special made 8" woofer. the bass that they have is fast and robust. but, for certain type of music where are heavy bass energy, the sub is a great tool added here. the grotto will do the job very nicely. for ht, the sub is a must. happy listening,
roberto.
 

Jeff Zaret

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jjay,

I agree with Roberto here.

I think the only way you will really know is when you put the speakers in your room and live with them for a few weeks of playing music and listen/watching movies. After that, I would then add the sub back in and see if it really makes enough of a difference/improvement to keep it,sell it to buy more toys. :D

Personally, and I know I may get flamed on this, but I think the Vantage is a better speaker pricewise and practicality-wise than the Summit. Don't get me wrong, the Summit is a fantastic speaker but you have to have a large room for the bass to be effective with the Summit. IMHO, I think the Vantage will be more practical for the average "user/room" user. :eek:

Let us know how this works.

Jeff :cool:
 

jjay

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Thanks for the quick reply, Roberto
I use a another sub in my home theatre which I built in my home's lower level. I have a main listen area for a two ch system. This is where I am using the ML Grotto subwoofer. Do you Think that a ML Grotto sub will be able to keep up the the ML Vantage speakers? Do you think that the Grotto will enhance the bass response or would it be too much bass?
Thanks again,
JJJ
 

jjay

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Thanks for your input also Jeff,
I have read many of your posts and am grateful for your input and experience. It is good to hear your description of the Vantages. It took me quite a while to get my significant other to buy off on my purchases. She did not understand why i would want to upgrade to the Vantages when she finds the ML Aeon 1 speakers to be great.
JJJ :
 

roberto

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jjay said:
Thanks for the quick reply, Roberto
I use a another sub in my home theatre which I built in my home's lower level. I have a main listen area for a two ch system. This is where I am using the ML Grotto subwoofer. Do you Think that a ML Grotto sub will be able to keep up the the ML Vantage speakers? Do you think that the Grotto will enhance the bass response or would it be too much bass?
Thanks again,
JJJ
well, i think that most depends on your liking. you are setting your sub and you have your preference level control. if i were you, i will set the frequency cut in the sub at 50 hz and use it for the lower region only...this will clean up the bass of the vantage and of course i will use the vantage bass volume control to the minimum. these controls acts at 35hz, so the sub would work just great. use a moderated level, in other words, not too loud and you will enhance the scenario with less bass energy in the room, but enough to say...here i am. all depends too of your room's size and the stationary waves that are present in all rooms. sometimes it is better to use room acoustics to get the best of our system. trial and error is the most usefull tool. dan, another member of the club, is doing a lot of work with his room with room acoustics and he had reported us a huge improovement in his new sound. happy listening,
roberto.
 

jjay

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Does anyone have any opinions of whether you should should use a subwoofer in a 2 ch setup (no HT)at all? Would using a subwoofer degrade or enhance listening to just music in this kind of setup. I guess I am asking if the bass would sound boomy or change what the music should sound like. I am a beginner to this type of equipment and am trying to setup the ML Vantage speakers properly.
Thanks for any suggestions or opinions.
Jim
 

Jeff Zaret

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Jim,
My advice would be to try it. I do both.
You want the bass for 2-ch to be there but not boomy. You want to "lose" the sub and not be able to tell the placement. If you can tell where it is in the room it is too loud.

Jeff :cool:
 

jjay

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Thanks Jeff,
That will help me alot during setup this week. The Martin Logan sale rep is delivering the Vantage speakers this week. I will test them out like you said previously and as I understand you: set the level so that the ML Grotto adds to the bass but does not overwhelm it.
Thanks again,
Jim
 

jjay

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Vantages speakers have arrived

Shortly after setting up the ML Vantage Speakers I realized quickly that bass response was not going to be a problem. These speakers have quite a bit more bass than the ML Aeon 1 speakers I have upgraded from. I moved the ML Grotto subwoofer to my HT in another room. The Vantages were much easier to toe in than the ML Aeon 1 speakers. Maybe I just had more experience of how to adjust them this time. I also noticed quite a bit more detail in the stator panel than with the Aeon 1 panel. I am very happy with them and will be anxious to hear if they get even better after the break in period. Thank you Jeff & Roberto for your assistance. I will post pictures after I receive my audio rack arrives this week.
Jim
 

kirkawall

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Hi,

Glad you like the Vantages -- I love mine, though still waiting for a repair on one of the PS boards... Having moved to the Vantage and having tried them with an ML sub (Descent? Depth?) I find that the Vantage bass behaves much as a good sub's does -- it is very fast, very articulate, and in my system anyway (Quad) seems to make itself felt only when the music demands. There is absolutely no boom or overhang. I didn't find that the sub I demo'd made much difference in my system or room and didn't bother with it, but then I'm no basshead. I do think that the Vantages should have enough bass for most people in most rooms most of the time, and I have definitely found that their bass improves as they break in. This may mean that the Vantages you demo may not be the Vantages that you will, should you buy them, live with. In my case, the bass has become far quicker and, oddly, less noticable, giving the mids more room to breathe. Listening to a Bill Evans XRCD the other day I was struck by how much less boom there was to the bass line following break-in compared to how I'd heard it in my first few days with the Vantages. The Summits are out of my league but I find the Vantages to be almost addictive -- I swear I miss them when I'm away!

good luck,


k
 

Genesis

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Good comments in this thread. Along the same lines as Roberto's post, what I find works extremely well is to use the low pass filter in the sub (in my case the Depth, but Grotto also can) in two channel mode. The Vantage go down to 34 Hz so I set the low pass filter in the sub to 35 Hz. You could also set it at 30 Hz, but I found 35 works best for my system.

In this setup, the subwoofer is turned off above 35 Hz and therefore doesn't impinge or add any unnecessary colour to the stereo sound coming from the Vantage. Since the sub only comes in during very low bass intensive music, it's hardly noticeable most of the time, but does add that extra punch where the Vantage 8" woofer may struggle a bit.

Try a CD like Holy Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed. Depending on the source and amp, the double bass on this CD can go down below 34 Hz and I found the Vantage could wonderfully handle most of the range, but when I add the sub at the 35 Hz filter it nicely compliments the Vantages and rounds-out the lower end.
 
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