Do I really need to upgrade my centre channel with a ESL C18

[Kernel]

I find that It is very difficult to get an informed assessment of comparisons between old and new ML electrostatic speakers. I have Renaissance 15A's primary speakers (with SL3 as surrounds that have been repanelled) together with a wall mounted theatre i centre speaker. This centre speaker has now been augmented with a smallish REL subwoofer (REL T9i) - thanks to this forums advice.
I am not sure of the de-merits of repanelling my Theatre i as opposed to purchasing a new ELS C18 Centre speaker at approx 3.5 - 4 times the cost (UK prices). Amplification for home cinema is Chord Electronics 100W per channel for home cinema and newish Chord Pre and Monoblocs 480W per channel for the primary speakers.

I really am unsure of the disadvantages of repanelling an old centre channel Theatre i against buying a new ELS C18 - either with sub support.

 

[ttocs]

Your Theater i is a very different panel design with an open back to the panel vs the C18 being a closed back.

I went from the Motif to the C18 Focus, so it was "mostly" enclosed behind the stat panel of the Motif to a totally enclosed design on the C18, but that aside, there is no comparison in the quality of the sound, with the C18 being much more capable.

If only looking at the stat panels, it would seem that the Theater i has a slightly large panel vs the C18. So if you're happy with how you have your Theater i setup, and there's no issue with the back wave from the stat panel, then you'd probably be happy with a re-panel.

 

[Duke]

Do you have a source to replace the panel in your Theater i?

 

[Robert D]

I had the same dilemma. I owned a theater i center channel and upgraded to the C18. Much, much better sound. The theater was somewhat mumbled with voices, unclear. The C18 is wonderful and much better. I sold my old speaker for about $750. I'm glad I did not have it repanneled. I'm trying to remember if Martin Logan even does them, can't remember. I had my Prodigy speakers repanneled and I'm very happy with them.
The new closed back design on the ML center channel speakers is much better for clarity of dialog.

 

[Kernel]

Thank you both ttocs and Robert for you thoughts on this proposed upgrade. I too sometimes think my Theater i is unclear which is why I was contemplating this change. Another aspect I have noticed is the introduction of the mystical 'folded motion tweeter' which are becomming more and more common in many manufactures speaker designs. Also I believe, upon closer inspection of my ML Theatre, that the electrostatic section is significantly smaller than the C18 because the electrostatic panel cover the whole of the front of the C18; whereas the cloth covered cones are at the ends of the theatre with a smaller electrostatic section.

 

[Kernel]

Do you have a source to replace the panel in your Theater i?

I am still awaiting a reply from the UK distributer PCM. A couple of years ago they quoted around £1000

 

[Robert D]

Thank you both ttocs and Robert for you thoughts on this proposed upgrade. I too sometimes think my Theater i is unclear which is why I was contemplating this change. Another aspect I have noticed is the introduction of the mystical 'folded motion tweeter' which are becomming more and more common in many manufactures speaker designs. Also I believe, upon closer inspection of my ML Theatre, that the electrostatic section is significantly smaller than the C18 because the electrostatic panel cover the whole of the front of the C18; whereas the cloth covered cones are at the ends of the theatre with a smaller electrostatic section.

I could be wrong, but I think the es panel only covers about the inner 1/3 of the length of the speaker. I think the outer grill is only there for protection. So there's the outer grill and then the panel sits behind it. It's listed at 18 inches long. Below is a screen shot of their website. The new panels are microperf though, so more efficient than the old panels. The new center channel sounds much better to me.
With my old theater i,, I found myself constantly having to rewind movies so that I could understand dialogue. The voices would be muffled. Sometimes I even put on subtitles!

 

[Kernel]

Oops - totally my mistake. Yes it does look (or rather read) like electrostatic area is of a significantly smaller size than the grill dimensions. Anyway I have taking a leap of faith and have a Focus C18 on order.

 

[Robert D]

Oops - totally my mistake. Yes it does look (or rather read) like electrostatic area is of a significantly smaller size than the grill dimensions. Anyway I have taking a leap of faith and have a Focus C18 on order.

You won't regret it.

 

[codesx100]

Oops - totally my mistake. Yes it does look (or rather read) like electrostatic area is of a significantly smaller size than the grill dimensions. Anyway I have taking a leap of faith and have a Focus C18 on order.

No leap of faith on that one. the C18 is one of the best Center Channels on the market IMO in terms of performance. I don't think it gets the recognition it deserves due to price and being a electrostatic speaker.

 

[Fidji99]

No leap of faith on that one. the C18 is one of the best Center Channels on the market IMO in terms of performance. I don't think it gets the recognition it deserves due to price and being a electrostatic speaker.

Agree. They require some attention with placememt and one must show them some respect with the proper amplifier.

I am actually thinking of buying another one - and have 2 centers, one above and one below the screen ….

 

[Robert D]

Agree. They require some attention with placememt and one most show them some respect with the proper amplifier.

I am actually thinking of buying another one - and have 2 centers, one above and one below the screen ….

That's the way to go. Only thing better would be two behind an acoustic transparent screen.

 

[Nuri58]

Could a configuration with a center on top and another below the screen not result in issues with varying spl the in vertical plane - just thinking of how it will about interference (try to se ripple tank for such effects).

The ESP panel is located between the two woofers just like the theathre, still a sealed configuration just with a continous microperf front so it appears like a huge ESP. On the picture you can see that the actual microperf is located behind the front one and bound to the woofer enclosure. Well somewhat disappointed when i realised this, then again it didn't change the sound performance which remains excelent. Sometimes it's better not to know all

 

[ejspain]

No leap of faith on that one. the C18 is one of the best Center Channels on the market IMO in terms of performance. I don't think it gets the recognition it deserves due to price and being a electrostatic speaker.

Agree

 

[Fidji99]

Could a configuration with a center on top and another below the screen not result in issues with varying spl the in vertical plane - just thinking of how it will about interference (try to se ripple tank for such effects).

The ESP panel is located between the two woofers just like the theathre, still a sealed configuration just with a continous microperf front so it appears like a huge ESP. On the picture you can see that the actual microperf is located behind the front one and bound to the woofer enclosure. Well somewhat disappointed when i realised this, then again it didn't change the sound performance which remains excelent. Sometimes it's better not to know all

I have been doing my “research” on internet across the forums etc - general consensus is “ dont do it” - in respect of dual centers. And in most,of the cases I woudl agree - lobing, amp strain etc. All valid points, considering usual setups, where in the most of the cases the correct answer is to buy best center you can afford and place it as close to ideal, as possible.

But ….
1) in most of the pro/high-end theaters you actuall have 3 centers (5 screen speakers) CLeft - C - CRight, depending on the screen width
2) Both Auro and DTSX Pro use Discrete Center Height channel in order to chieve realistic sound image across then screen side, I have it too, and it is audible improvement, even more than adding e.g. TopMiddle speakers. For Atmos (that has no Center Heigjht) I use this speaker to augment my C18 with good result. Subjectively soundstage is a bit more coherent,
3) My processor is handling the channels differently - you can assign 2 different outputs as C and handle it completely independtly (gain, delay, Eq, etc) and combine them
4) distance between 2 C is enough to be able tp create stable phantom sound image (similar to stereo)

But it is in my head just as vague idea, once I will digest my subwoofer upgrade spree.

 

[Nuri58]

I have been doing my “research” on internet across the forums etc - general consensus is “ dont do it” - in respect of dual centers. And in most,of the cases I woudl agree - lobing, amp strain etc. All valid points, considering usual setups, where in the most of the cases the correct answer is to buy best center you can afford and place it as close to ideal, as possible.

But ….
1) in most of the pro/high-end theaters you actuall have 3 centers (5 screen speakers) CLeft - C - CRight, depending on the screen width
2) Both Auro and DTSX Pro use Discrete Center Height channel in order to chieve realistic sound image across then screen side, I have it too, and it is audible improvement, even more than adding e.g. TopMiddle speakers. For Atmos (that has no Center Heigjht) I use this speaker to augment my C18 with good result. Subjectively soundstage is a bit more coherent,
3) My processor is handling the channels differently - you can assign 2 different outputs as C and handle it completely independtly (gain, delay, Eq, etc) and combine them
4) distance between 2 C is enough to be able tp create stable phantom sound image (similar to stereo)

But it is in my head just as vague idea, once I will digest my subwoofer upgrade spree.

Sound like that might be an option then. Good luck once you get to that stage

 

[rluciano]

Agree. They require some attention with placememt and one must show them some respect with the proper amplifier.

I am actually thinking of buying another one - and have 2 centers, one above and one below the screen ….

Let us know how it goes if you do that. I have been considering that too. Or if I really get crazy, moving my C18 above the screen and adding a C43A.

 

[Nuri58]

Let us know how it goes if you do that. I have been considering that too. Or if I really get crazy, moving my C18 above the screen and adding a C43A.

That'll possible be a long wait - guess it's the 34a you refer to . I wonder why the C18 is so relatively expensive given the much smaller panel and no built-in amplifier.

 

[Robert D]

That'll possible be a long wait - guess it's the 34a you refer to . I wonder why the C18 is so relatively expensive given the much smaller panel and no built-in amplifier.

I paid around $3000 for mine before inflation went crazy.

 

[Nuri58]

I paid around $3000 for mine before inflation went crazy.

I meant relative to the C34 - C18 seems like 60% of the cost, but everything on the C34 is double up and more (4 woofers, 2 folded motions, 2x ESP area, built-in amp with ARC and a much larger and elaborate cabinet).

I just noted that you can actually see the ESL through the cosmetic micro perf covering the entire front if you look at the C18 on ML's site. And il looks like there is about 4" of unused room on each side of the woofers. Does anyone have an X-ray photo of it (like the one on ML's site for the EM ELS C?