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Vantage Vs Summit

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bonesetter

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Hi, I am new to the forum and I am in a quandry over what speaker to go for, to replace my N802's. My other electronics, room size, and volume level are the influencing factors.

my room is 7m x 5m x 9' tall and I'll have the speakers firing across the width, with the listening postion being againt the wall

my feeling is the Summits will be too big, and will need to come too far into the room to peform. So, the Advatages may be the way to go in that respect....?

the other concern is will the MF kW500 match...

I loved the massive dynamics of the 802's, but wanted something with a little more 'soul'

i also like it loud sometimes (jazz, folk and acoustic being mt main taste) - 11 o'clock on the amp sort of level which is why i considered the summits

Any help would be greatly apreciated, as dealers you speak to in the Uk say summits will work fine

cheers

nigel
 

roberto

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bonesetter said:
Hi, I am new to the forum and I am in a quandry over what speaker to go for, to replace my N802's. My other electronics, room size, and volume level are the influencing factors.

my room is 7m x 5m x 9' tall and I'll have the speakers firing across the width, with the listening postion being againt the wall

my feeling is the Summits will be too big, and will need to come too far into the room to peform. So, the Advatages may be the way to go in that respect....?

the other concern is will the MF kW500 match...

I loved the massive dynamics of the 802's, but wanted something with a little more 'soul'
.

i also like it loud sometimes (jazz, folk and acoustic being mt main taste) - 11 o'clock on the amp sort of level which is why i considered the summits

Any help would be greatly apreciated, as dealers you speak to in the Uk say summits will work fine

cheers

nigel
Hola Nigel...you can't go wrong with the Summits. The size of the instruments, the transparency, the dynamics, the scenario, the air between into the instruments and vocals...and also a great standing waves bass control. You can adjust at 50 Hz and at 25 Hz +- 10 dBs!!!...400 Watts on each for bass, makes them a truly winner. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

Reverb

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I think your room will be fine.

I would look into some acoustic treatments, to really help those summits sing, but if you have the money I say go for it and don’t look back, you will love them. Also, Placement is key with them make sure you can pull them at least 1m out into the room.
 
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bonesetter

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Zip3kx07 said:
I think your room will be fine.

I would look into some acoustic treatments, to really help those summits sing, but if you have the money I say go for it and don’t look back, you will love them. Also, Placement is key with them make sure you can pull them at least 1m out into the room.

thanks for your quick replies. i can't pull them out 1m into the room, it's not possible, and they need to go against the long wall

What a coincidence! hot off the press, just bought in from the newsagent is this months edition (June) of Hi-Fi News. it carries a review of the Vantage by Ken Kessler. He also recently reviewed the Summits. Kessler says the differences between the two speakers is very small indeed "The Vantage delivers performance so close to the Summit...But going from one speaker to another ...the manufacturer has to worry that the differential almost fails to justify the extra money"
 

roberto

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bonesetter said:
thanks for your quick replies. i can't pull them out 1m into the room, it's not possible, and they need to go against the long wall

What a coincidence! hot off the press, just bought in from the newsagent is this months edition (June) of Hi-Fi News. it carries a review of the Vantage by Ken Kessler. He also recently reviewed the Summits. Kessler says the differences between the two speakers is very small indeed "The Vantage delivers performance so close to the Summit...But going from one speaker to another ...the manufacturer has to worry that the differential almost fails to justify the extra money"
Hola...the big difference between them is the bass. Summits with two 10" woofers driven by 2 digital amplifiers of 200 Watts, for a total of 400 Watts per speaker, and the Vantage with only one 8" woofer with 200 Watts amp. You can feel and hear the bass authority of the Summits easy. Also at the Vantage there is only one bass control at 35Hz +-10dBs. At the Summits you can "tune" your room more precise for bass response for the standing waves. Also, the stat panel is bigger...more resolution, dynamics and detail. The Vantages are great speakers also, but if the money is not the case, go for the Summits for sure. Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

twich54

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bonesetter said:
thanks for your quick replies. i can't pull them out 1m into the room, it's not possible, and they need to go against the long wall

What a coincidence! hot off the press, just bought in from the newsagent is this months edition (June) of Hi-Fi News. it carries a review of the Vantage by Ken Kessler. He also recently reviewed the Summits. Kessler says the differences between the two speakers is very small indeed "The Vantage delivers performance so close to the Summit...But going from one speaker to another ...the manufacturer has to worry that the differential almost fails to justify the extra money"
If you can't get them away from the wall and your listening postion is against the other wall........why waste your money ??????????
 

jmschnur

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The Vantages can work well when 2' or so from front wall. Room treaments and "tow in" to give a bit more back space will help. Most music does not need low low bass below 35 hz. The low bass can make a difference for HT applications but that can be done with a sub woofer for LFE.

I am interestd in seeing that articles by Kessler on the Vantages. Is there a place on the net to view it? Did the reviewer fnd the imaging and mid range very very similar between the Summitt and the Vantage and how did he find these two speakers comapred with the rest of the good speakers that are out there?

joel
 
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bonesetter

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The main point he made was the similiarity in performance of the two speakers, and the Summit was really only worth the money if you are very keen

"Make no mistake the Summit outperformes the Vantage. But this is only evident in a larger space; I could experience that in my 14 x 22ft home theatre room. But...Summit will give you all the speed, transparency, neutrality and seamlessness [of the Vantage]"

"The Vantage delivers performance so close to the Summit...almost fails to justify the extra money"

Kessler's comment about his 14x22 room space was made me wonder if it was worth it for me in my room 16 x 12 (and the rear wall placement issue)
 

Joey_V

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The Summits gives me a fuller center presentation - meaning, the sound between the speakers sound more real. With the Vantage, it was not as real unless the speakers were toed in completely - probably an inherent weakness of having only a 10" panel width. The Summits will give you the ability to toe it out wider, yet retaining much of the "grunt" of the music reproduction.... the "realism of it" if you will. With the Vantage, I found myself losing realism once I toed it slightly out, mainly due to the thin panels.

Also, know that vocals coming out of the Summits are better than off the Vantage. The Vantage panel cuts off at about 400hz while the Summits goes to about 270hz. Fundamental tones for baritone vocals are about 200hz, meaning that the Summit panel will reproduce most (if not all) of the vocal's frequency (from Fundamental tones to Harmonic tones).

The Vantage are not equal to the Summits.

If you want confirmation, set both up in the same room - same amp and upstreams - and hook them up to a switcher. This is what we did at the shop and it was apparent how the Summits gave a fuller (more realistic, not just bass addition) presentation right between the speakers than does the Vantage.

It's undoubted that both possess the same tonality - sure, that's why everyone says their very comparable - but they are different animals.
 

Matten Logan

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You know, I have a fairly close room arangement to yours. I got Vantages, but I can get them 3' from the wall. If I could go back and buy the Summits, I just might have. I'm a dealer and I can tell you that the Summits just sound bigger in every way. Mostly in soundstage width and accurate centering of voices. For me it was a cost issue though. Dont worry too much about the crossover though, 400 Hz and 220 Hz is well above fundamental frequency for male voices (average 150). I'm not trying to upstage you joel, but I study acoustic phonetics at UCLA and have looked at thousands of spectograms of voices. Females hover around 200 to 350 (at least thats the highest i've seen in a spectogram). To me the panel/woofer integration is seemless in both models. And just FYI, with that room arangement, be ready to spend a LOT of time trying to get nice imaging, my Vantages are almost pointed directly at my listening position.
 
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jmschnur

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It would seen guys are suggesting that Jim Power's 1/3 toe in is too little for the Vantages but about right for the Summits. Is that correct? In a HT system with a stage or cinema center speaker would you use the center channel for music are just set it up with the two speakers? Would the choice be different for the Vantage versus the Summitts?

joel
 

Reverb

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jmschnur said:
It would seen guys are suggesting that Jim Power's 1/3 toe in is too little for the Vantages but about right for the Summits. Is that correct? In a HT system with a stage or cinema center speaker would you use the center channel for music are just set it up with the two speakers? Would the choice be different for the Vantage versus the Summitts?

joel
The toe will have a lot to do with how far apart you place them, the farther apart the more toe in you will more then likely want.
 
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bonesetter

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A very helpful dealer set up the Summit and then the Vantage in his listening room, which is a similar size to my listening room (16 x 12). He set them up so they were firing across the width of the room

After comparison there is NO WAY to consider going for the Summits. There was too much bass, and just not enough room for them

The Vantage was just better in that situation, and this is what i have gone for

Should have them within the week :)
 
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bonesetter

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New Vantage's fault

The new Vantage's arrived this morning, however on playing them now for the day there is a nasty vibration coming from one of the panels, worse with certain music and volume :( The big spacer between the panel and the woofer has two small cracks in it towards the outside also! This doesn't seem the source of the vibration however

the dealer has said give it the rest of the day if it's still there he'll replace both of them

Anyone heard or had this sort of vibration problem??
 

twich54

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Bonesetter, That's the first I've heard of that one. I'm aware that all the Vantages I've heard to date put out a very low freq. rumble from the bass driver at idle (can't hear it unless your on the floor with ear up close, BTW M/L says its normal ??? ). I doubt if your situation will correct itself, good to hear your dealer will replace both.

Good Luck !!!
 

jmschnur

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Matten Logan,

The comment on male and female voices having fundementals below 350 hz was very interesting as well as the imaging difference for voices between the Vantage and Summitt. Have you looked at equalizing below 400 hz to ensure that each speaker has the same levels below 400? If one did that, would that affect the voice imaging (pro or con?).

Joel
 
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Greg_A

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1M from the wall? where are we measuring the 1M ?
-from the rear of the bass enclosure?
-1m from the highest point/top in the normal back slant position?

Also, I am assuming the 1M is with no devices placed across the center? I have seen 1 M. examples but with TV's/Racks that would appear to have impact. {I have just ordered summits - so I am curious }
Thank You
 

Reverb

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Greg_A said:
1M from the wall? where are we measuring the 1M ?
-from the rear of the bass enclosure?
-1m from the highest point/top in the normal back slant position?

Also, I am assuming the 1M is with no devices placed across the center? I have seen 1 M. examples but with TV's/Racks that would appear to have impact. {I have just ordered summits - so I am curious }
Thank You
3ft or 1 meter from the back wall is a good place to start, to find your speakers optimal placement. Placement will be different for every one, some can get away with a close placement from the back wall others have reported having to pull there summits out as far as 8 feet from the back wall or about 2.5 meters to get there summits to sound right. Our speakers throw sound both forward at the listener and back at the wall, if the back wave is to strong it can destroy the sound of the front wave, so we have to pull our speakers out from the wall to minimize the effects of the back wave. Depending on what objects are in your room like, a TV, book case, coffee table, couch, ETC. and the type of wall in your home, Dry wall, Brick, Wood, will all change how the speakers interact in your room.

A good place to start for finding the optimum placement is 3ft from the back wall, 2ft from the sidewalls and the speaker’s 8ft apart. That should give you a good starting point for placement and then try moving them around from there, forward, back, left and right, toe in, toe out.


If you have any questions our problems were here to help.
 

aliveatfive

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There are many different theories concerning placement. One possibility is called the "rule of thirds." Simply put it states that the speakers should be a third of the way into the room (from the back wall) and one third of the room's width from each sidewall. You probably need a very large room for this placement with Logans.

Another possibility is found in the instruction manual included in each Logan. I believe they call it "the final tweak" and that placement has worked very well for me.
 

Genesis

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My left side Vantage is only 2 feet from the rear wall and 2 feet from the side wall...superb separation, but have to apply treatmemt on the left side corner to minimize reflections.....
 
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