Best ML for Large Room - Setup, Ethos or Montis, Bass + other considerations

[thewizozz]

Longtime lurker here hoping to get some thoughts on my questions at the bottom. See below

I've looked high and low but I need some specific advice on the best way to optimize this setup.

I have a large, open floor plan main level. 2000 sq ft+ with living room backing into kitchen with open dining, office, breakfast nook etc. See pics but you probably get the idea, it's not a listening room but at least its not vaulted and there is some carpet. Room Dimensions - Main living Room (Carpeted area) 20 X 18 + another 20 feet back to Kitchen and then all sorts of openness

For context, I just purchased a set of Martin Logan Theos but I need more bass, low midrange. I moved them all over the place and they do sound a little better about 4 feet into the living room vs. but visually it's hard to swallow.

FYI - I did listen to the Ethos, Montis, and Summit X (+S Faber and B&W 803's) and I am strongly considering returning the Theos and upgrading to the Ethos or Montis. The bass was so much better. The Faber's were nice but didn't wow like ML's and the B&W's didn't sound good at all in the Mid-Range+ area which i had a hard time believing wasn't due to setup, break-in or something.

I listen 50-50 music / TV & movies in this room and I have 2 subwoofers in the cabinet along with a stage-x. I do listen to a little rock/metal but I'm willing compromise on that for the awesomeness with everything else i listen to. The center box is lined with 2" foam all around which really helped.

Questions:
1) Speaker Setup / Placement - There are multiple seating positions, go generic or be selfish and toe in for 1 spot. I like the sound when the towers are placed further out into the living room but it's not exactly family friendly. The stupid AV cabinet really makes this difficult.

2) Speaker Selection - Ethos vs. Montis? - Based on my room will they really sound different or is one better or worse in my setup? - I want to be realistic on the room as a limiting factor. Should I audition any other options?

3) Bass - How would you optimize? I've got a Dynamo 700 and a Klipsch XW - 500d. It's o.k for movies but i've got some issues with reverb and it really seems like you either dial it in for movies or music as it's too much or too little otherwise. They don't pair well with the Theos and I don't know there is enough tinkering or calibration that would solve that (hence the speaker upgrade). I'd like to replace with a pair of the same model but this won't happen soon.

Any other general thoughts on the setup are welcome. The wiring setup is temporary until i lock down the model i'm going with.

Thanks in advance -

 

[twich54]

oh my, beautiful room ……… but you're right that 'stupid AV cabinet' is an unmitigated disaster to start with. Given speaker placement, imaging must suck.

Buy a pair of Neolith's and a couple of subs and call it a day !

oh…….. I almost forgot, welcome to the fold 'whizz' !!

 

[amey01]

Hi and welcome.

Agree with Dave - the stupid cabinet has to go. But then you may also have issues with the expansive glass and hard floors which you should address too. You may not have any issues of course - I haven't listened in your room - but just pointing it out.

 

[thewizozz]

Thanks for responses (and the welcome) but I'm not quite sure how to take them.
1) Spend another 80k+ on speakers and subs - I've got 2 kids in daycare
2) Carpet / more rugs over hardwood, remove a 10k+ custom cabinet, add window treatments etc. - The cabinet removal was considered a few times but would require spending unacceptable amount of $ and more importantly marriage capital

Are those really the only viable options?
I probably should have be a little clearer on what I'm looking for thoughts on.

I don't expect this to sound like a reference dedicated listening room. It's my living room, kitchen, playroom, etc. and I'm at least mildly aware of the limitations. I like to listen to music with the Family and this is a pretty nice space to hang out. I understand there are compromises and i just want optimize this setup without wholesale out-of-budget changes. (Those changes are better focused on the basement when the time comes)

Examples - Thoughts on speaker selection and placement, bass optimization, etc.

If nothing else I'm curious if the Montis would really add much (vs. the Ethos) considering the room's limitations or if the Montis is a slam dunk to help overcome some of them.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer earlier.

Hi and welcome.

Agree with Dave - the stupid cabinet has to go. But then you may also have issues with the expansive glass and hard floors which you should address too. You may not have any issues of course - I haven't listened in your room - but just pointing it out.

 

[amey01]

Sorry if your misunderstood our responses - this is a forum geared toward sound quality, and we took your post to be a request for assistance for getting better sound out of your room.

You can take our responses how you wish - they are only offers of advice (and may not be what you need or want) - but that's the same with any advice you receive on the Internet. Listen and take how you please.

Bear in mind though - you can do small things to your room that will bring big rewards - you don't have to to go all out and turn it into a dedicated listening room!

 

[Bernard]

I would love to have a room like that!

You currently have a wall behind one speaker and glass behind the other; I suggest that you move that problem cabinet so that it's dead centre wrt the wall, and move the right speaker a bit left. Then heavily treat the wall behind both speakers with sound absorbent. This may bring you some improvement.

 

[Hocky]

That room is never going to sound good without making significant changes. If you can't get the speakers out into the room (you really need to), you need to heavily absorb the rear wave and based on the pictures, that is going to mean covering a window. You should set up the speakers for 1 listening seat - that is the only way that ML stuff works. Otherwise, there are 0 seats in the room that sound right. As far as subs go, you need a lot more sub for a room like that if you want it to sound even and powerful. You should consider a pair of matching subs - they don't need to be MLs, but they need to be capable of high output with good SQ. If you like to stay sealed, I would recommend taking a look at something like a pair of SVS SB13 Ultra.

 

[thewizozz]

Thanks Bernard - I hear you about moving this cabinet but it's built in so that's out. I agree on the sound treatments, I just need to find some that don't look too 80's and blend into the rest of the decor. If anyone has had good luck with WAF approved modern looking wall panels please drop me a link.

Any thoughts on the questions from my original post?

Questions:
1) Speaker Setup / Placement - There are multiple seating positions, go generic or be selfish and toe in for 1 spot. I like the sound when the towers are placed further out into the living room but it's not exactly family friendly. The stupid AV cabinet really makes this difficult.

2) Speaker Selection - Ethos vs. Montis? - Based on my room will they really sound different or is one better or worse in my setup? - I want to be realistic on the room as a limiting factor. Should I audition any other options?

3) Bass - How would you optimize? I've got a Dynamo 700 and a Klipsch XW - 500d. It's o.k for movies but i've got some issues with reverb and it really seems like you either dial it in for movies or music as it's too much or too little otherwise. They don't pair well with the Theos and I don't know there is enough tinkering or calibration that would solve that (hence the speaker upgrade). I'd like to replace with a pair of the same model but this won't happen soon.

I would love to have a room like that!

You currently have a wall behind one speaker and glass behind the other; I suggest that you move that problem cabinet so that it's dead centre wrt the wall, and move the right speaker a bit left. Then heavily treat the wall behind both speakers with sound absorbent. This may bring you some improvement.

 

[Hocky]

Montis is worth the price for the larger panel in a bigger room.

 

[sb6]

Thanks Bernard - I hear you about moving this cabinet but it's built in so that's out. I agree on the sound treatments, I just need to find some that don't look too 80's and blend into the rest of the decor. If anyone has had good luck with WAF approved modern looking wall panels please drop me a link.

Any thoughts on the questions from my original post?

Questions:
1) Speaker Setup / Placement - There are multiple seating positions, go generic or be selfish and toe in for 1 spot. I like the sound when the towers are placed further out into the living room but it's not exactly family friendly. The stupid AV cabinet really makes this difficult.

2) Speaker Selection - Ethos vs. Montis? - Based on my room will they really sound different or is one better or worse in my setup? - I want to be realistic on the room as a limiting factor. Should I audition any other options?

3) Bass - How would you optimize? I've got a Dynamo 700 and a Klipsch XW - 500d. It's o.k for movies but i've got some issues with reverb and it really seems like you either dial it in for movies or music as it's too much or too little otherwise. They don't pair well with the Theos and I don't know there is enough tinkering or calibration that would solve that (hence the speaker upgrade). I'd like to replace with a pair of the same model but this won't happen soon.

Welcome to the forum. Others have covered most of the main points, treatment and speaker placement being 2 of the biggies. Irrespective of which speaker or brand you chose, inconspicuous and effective room treatment and measuring may be your savior. Since you mentioned subs, I would get 1 or 2 that have DSP (like an SVS sub) which can provide ample bass for movies, tight articulate bass for music and can be tuned to any room's challenges. Set up the speakers equidistant to side walls (or as best as possible) and measure with SW like REW (free btw) for optimum placement/sound quality (within WAF). If you need help, ask folks on this and other forums or maybe ask a buddy to help. The biggest gain you have yet to achieve in that room is placement and treatment, probably more so than speaker choice (within reason of course).

As far as speakers, for your large room Montis will help with bass and overall sound staging.
As for other speakers, there are many to chose and because you will have significant reflection and modal issues + cannot get the MLs away from the wall behind it + limited sweet spot, I would not recommend any dipole. Here are a few very good speakers: Vandersteen, Von Schweikert, Usher, Vienna Acoustics, Focal, KEF.. Depends on your budget and what you are driving them with. More details needed to give other speaker options.

 

[TomDac]

I'd go big: Summit X and pull them away from the walls... a good amp to drive them and you'll be set.

 

[thewizozz]

haha - I like it. For me Montis is going big!
I pulled the speakers out further now and they are almost 3' from the back wall (about 6" in front of the cabinet) As expected this helped. WAF approved.

Thanks for all the responses.

Key Takeaways:
- Find a way to add some acoustic treatments
- Bigger Panel with active bass will help but physics are a bitch

I'd go big: Summit X and pull them away from the walls... a good amp to drive them and you'll be set.

 

[thewizozz]

good thoughts here. The Montis will likely go into more formal theater area when out basement is finished but I totally agree with you that a dipole is a challange and probably not ideal in this application. I'm sucker for the stat's though so personal bias is an issue. I actually brought this up a number of times when i was shopping for speakers and mostly received lip service and was told to just get what sounded good to me (in their store of course)

Welcome to the forum. Others have covered most of the main points, treatment and speaker placement being 2 of the biggies. Irrespective of which speaker or brand you chose, inconspicuous and effective room treatment and measuring may be your savior. Since you mentioned subs, I would get 1 or 2 that have DSP (like an SVS sub) which can provide ample bass for movies, tight articulate bass for music and can be tuned to any room's challenges. Set up the speakers equidistant to side walls (or as best as possible) and measure with SW like REW (free btw) for optimum placement/sound quality (within WAF). If you need help, ask folks on this and other forums or maybe ask a buddy to help. The biggest gain you have yet to achieve in that room is placement and treatment, probably more so than speaker choice (within reason of course).

As far as speakers, for your large room Montis will help with bass and overall sound staging.
As for other speakers, there are many to chose and because you will have significant reflection and modal issues + cannot get the MLs away from the wall behind it + limited sweet spot, I would not recommend any dipole. Here are a few very good speakers: Vandersteen, Von Schweikert, Usher, Vienna Acoustics, Focal, KEF.. Depends on your budget and what you are driving them with. More details needed to give other speaker options.

 

[timm]

good thoughts here. The Montis will likely go into more formal theater area when out basement is finished but I totally agree with you that a dipole is a challange and probably not ideal in this application. I'm sucker for the stat's though so personal bias is an issue. I actually brought this up a number of times when i was shopping for speakers and mostly received lip service and was told to just get what sounded good to me (in their store of course)

Look at GIK acoustics online. Great product reasonable price will help with treatment advice and can have panels look like pictures if you wanted. Talk to Glenn.

 

[twich54]

haha - I like it. For me Montis is going big!

With respect to the Summit X they have the same size panel, difference being crossover point and additional 10" bass driver in the 'X'. Given your room size (volume) the Montis makes more sense when combine with a couple of strategically placed servo subs of adequate size so as to properly (and evenly) energize your room.

Not at all surprised of the improvement with speakers pulled further out / away from the 'A/V debacle', keep up the good work !

 

[Bubba]

Get the Montis...

Hi - long time lurker too. I have an open floor plan and vaulted ceilings and recently went through some similar challenges to yours with a new setup this summer. I actually started with the ESLs and Dual SVS subwoofers (inside an entertainment cabinet)...that did not work well at all. I ended (mission accomplished) with the Montis and a ML BalancedForce 210. Also about 50/50 music and movies.

A couple of things to think about besides the panel size...the Ethos has a down firing (passive) woofer...whilst this has some more power than the theos, it is definitely more chuffy/boomy and not as musical or as fast as the the Montis, which is completely sealed. Secondly, the ML premium subwoofers have a great system (Perfect Bass Kit) that really helped me dial the bass for a large room and it is dynamite. Also you have custom profiles which you can setup to crossover the bass just right between the Montis and the sub which creates a really really integrated experience and the sub keeps up with the Montis very well, filling in just where the Montis give out. The sealed dual opposed sub is tight and musical and also has enough power to buzz the couch when in theater mode. In fact I have found the dual inputs to the sub useful. It has both for HT/LFE and for L/R and I use them both, with LFE for Home Theater and L/R for music, and it makes a big difference because I have them setup different (HT controlled by the receiver with additional Audessey, L/R controlled by the sub with a pure signal and no additional room correction)

Besides the speakers, you didn't really mention the rest of the system you have setup, particularly any receiver or amp. This can have a big impact on what you hear and might be an area you want to look into more, especially if you want to get the best outcome in the room for both music and movies...

I am using a Marantz receiver for HT and it is setup with Audessey in Flat mode. I then have a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium with KT120 tubes for music to make things warm and punchy. The Marantz signal goes out to the Prima which feeds the Montis as well as the sub. The sub is also connected directly to the Marantz LFE for movie time. When in movie mode the Prima is just a class A pass through amp for the Montis. When music only the Marantz is not involved and I use a chrome cast Audio connected directly to the Prima which feeds the Montis and the balanced force sub via L/R and no additional processing. I use plex for uncompressed audio directly to chromecast. Honestly took me awhile to get to this, but really getting the best of both worlds I think, and the sub and speakers act very different when I am playing music vs watching a movie.

TLDR - get the Montis and a ML premium subwoofer and integrate them well; think about your amplification as the speakers can use the power, and think about breaking out music processing from HT processing, which will make a big difference in a large room, and make you far happier in both modes.

Hope this helps bud!

 

[Bevensee]

Good that you moved the speakers out into the room. You did not really (or did I miss it?) write much about your budget, so the advices you receive are a bit all over the place.

I think, that the most important improvement in an open-floor layout such as yours is the addition of a pair f high quality subs, e.g. ML BalanceForce10, some used Decents some Parasound... You should get two, and they should have some sort of DSP for room matching. I know that it is tempting to spend a lot of money upgrading to Montis,but that alone will not solve your bass problem. And mating them with cheap subs is never gonna work well. A good dealer should let you test the following two options:

a) Montis without subs

b) Theos/Ethos with two BF10

Then you can make an informed choice on where the money is spend best to suit your taste and needs.

 

[Dougster]

Montis and an eq'd subwoofer plus some room treatment the way to go. ML Balanced force or Velodyne DD+ series would allow excellent dialling in and allow you to back off the bass output on the Montis. This will help given the speaker placement issues and give less vibration to the panel to disrupt image focus in the midrange and up. I have done this with the Spire with excellent results. I used to have Vantage which had same width panel but not as tall as the Theos. The Spire Montis and Summit X all have same height panels as Theos but in contrast to Dave's post, crucially they have extra width which gives a much improved soundstage. Whilst this will be compromised by "the unit" you will still get a big improvement. My system has a slightly similar constraint but happily my speakers can be placed further into the room than my own "furniture item".
Hope this helps....

 

[thewizozz]

I hear ya there. I gave a good listen to the Ethos and the Summix X's a week or so back, with the way they were setup i noticed just a little better bass on the X but not nearly enough for me to spring for the extra cost. I did like the bigger panel though.

Bottom line- I have a strong WAF consideration at play here (don't we all!). Not sure new subs are happening this year regardless of price/budget. They will be on the roadmap for sure.
:rocker:

I know that it is tempting to spend a lot of money upgrading to Montis,but that alone will not solve your bass problem. And mating them with cheap subs is never gonna work well. A good dealer should let you test the following two options:

a) Montis without subs

b) Theos/Ethos with two BF10

Then you can make an informed choice on where the money is spend best to suit your taste and needs.

 

[thewizozz]

The Montis are here! its been a fantastic 6 weeks. I pulled both of the subs out of the cabinet and did the walk and the combo is beyond special. I don't have 8 gauge wiring or McIn this anything or XLR cables but I do know one thing, these speakers are the real deal. I still haven't optimized so many things but what's the hurry. These sound so good, so much better its hard to imagine. The combo of theos -> to Montis + dual subwoofer optimization was almost hard to believe it would be so good.

I'm listening to HT and my fav audio for the first time again. Acoustic Guitar...amazing. Live Shows, DMB, Mum&S, Tool, Nirvana, Pear Jam, wow, so impressive! Even Adele, etc, and other female friendly stuff just sounds supreme.

I've learned so many good things from this forum and I really appreciate all the great knowledge here - I must admit though that after awhile all the obsession about finding the last 2% improvement via some cable, component, amp, etc has started to wear on me. Maybe I'll find this same improvement via move to Audio quest speaker wire but I'm not holding my breath.
Part of me had starting to wonder if audio forums are more about and just specs, brands, and sharing pics of gaudy, cable ridden open air systems that don't belong anywhere outside of a man-cave or single-man's house. More power to you but regardless of the lights, brand-names or stands IMO they look tacky - real men hide theie stuff.

All i care about is sound quality and how music makes me feel. Solid bass, detailed highs and (live) music that brings you there. That's what it's all about folks.

(Oz signing off)