Room equalization

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This new subscriber would like to know if anyone has had experience using M-Ls with room equalizer systems including Audyssey outboard unit, Audyssey systems built into Denon receivers, or other room equilizer systems? Would like to know how effective they are, as I am considering Anthem pre-pro vs. Denon's new 5805CI recvr which has recently-upgraded Audyssey software (There are rumors of a Denon pre-pro that might also incorporate Audyssey). Meridian has a built-in proprietary system said to be good, but their prepro considerably more expensive. I would be driving 5.1 channel M-L spkrs (perhaps Vantages up front and perhaps eventually 7.1 channels of M-Ls). I have read jmschnur's 2-21-06 post re:"equalizers and crossovers" & responses.
 
(There are rumors of a Denon pre-pro that might also incorporate Audyssey). Meridian has a built-in proprietary system said to be good, but their prepro considerably more expensive. I would be driving 5.1 channel M-L spkrs (perhaps Vantages up front and perhaps eventually 7.1 channels of M-Ls). I have read jmschnur's 2-21-06 post re:"equalizers and crossovers" & responses.

I am not sure if this is what you are referring to exactly, but my Pioneer Elite VSX49TX had a system where you put at mic (supplied) right where your head would be and it would "equalize" the room for you. I am not sure that is the same thing as this was really more about "Time" equalization, not "Tone" equalization. I was not particularly impressed and went in and changed some things. I never really changed them enough though I don't think. We did my new Rotel RSP1098 by ear (well the ear of the installer from The Home Theater Store) and it sounds WAY better than the Pioneer ever did.
 
This new subscriber would like to know if anyone has had experience using M-Ls with room equalizer systems including Audyssey outboard unit, Audyssey systems built into Denon receivers, or other room equilizer systems? Would like to know how effective they are, as I am considering Anthem pre-pro vs. Denon's new 5805CI recvr which has recently-upgraded Audyssey software (There are rumors of a Denon pre-pro that might also incorporate Audyssey). Meridian has a built-in proprietary system said to be good, but their prepro considerably more expensive. I would be driving 5.1 channel M-L spkrs (perhaps Vantages up front and perhaps eventually 7.1 channels of M-Ls). I have read jmschnur's 2-21-06 post re:"equalizers and crossovers" & responses.


I have a bit of experience in this area, so maybe I'll chime in ;)

Room EQ is an amazing tool when used right. Used wrong, it’s the worst thing you could ever do.
Solutions like the Audyssey in the high-end Denons is actually very good, and hard to screw-up, although some people have managed ;)

The Meridian MRC is also excellent (I’ve tuned several systems using G68’s), but somewhat passive about correcting the ultimate last bit and requires hand tweaking by someone who knows what they’re doing .

These systems use the measurement process to perform time-domain alignment (setting accurate delays for each channel and for adjusting phase. Additionally, the measured in-room response for each channel is analyzed for room mode correction. This is different than just trying to EQ each channel for ‘flat’. Room modes are typically detected by looking for resonances that manifest themselves as long decay times at specific frequencies as seen on waterfall plots.
By removing these room induced resonances, you dramatically clean up the perception of how ‘clean’ a system is, or whether it’s ‘boomy’ or not.

Some systems also will correct some non-resonant frequency response peaks (by applying cut filters) if they are truly nasty (large peak, narrow Q). Most allow the user to add their own filters after the automatic system has done its bit. And that’s where it can go wrong. So unless you’ve read up on acoustics, played with measurement systems (>50hrs worth at least), you are at risk of possibly creating a negative side-effect.
But don’t let that scare you off from these systems, it’s just a caution from someone who’s had to learn, then go back and correct his own mistakes and those of others.

I recommend a system with room correction over one that does not have it. If you were to take any system, replace the pre with one that had room correction, I guarantee, the one that removed the room modes wins hands down, every time. I don’t care how high-zoot and platinum plated the pre is, if the speakers and the room interactions are generating large resonances, you will never know if the awesome pre is any good or not, as you really aren’t hearing it, you’re hearing your speakers interacting with your room.

One reason I evangelize MLs is that they let you start out with amazing sound generation in the room, as long the amp is appropriate, the rest of rig hardly matters. But any speaker, no mater how good, will still interact with the room. This is why room treatments should be the #1 investment anyone makes after purchase. Followed closely by active EQ, such as the ones we’re discussing here. Everything else is such a distant third in terms of actual sound quality results that I try and stay focused on these first two until I’m satisfied I’ve done all I can there.

See my system link for all the EQ and room treatments I use. I sort of rolled my own room correction. It's better than a G68 in my config (which is why I still run a 568).

Bottom line, a Denon pre (when and if it arrives) / Audyssey EQ or a Meridian G68 (look at the used market for great deals down around $5K). My vote for pure sound quality and room correction would be the G68.
 
I have a Denon receiver. There is a significant difference between Audyssey vs. none. The sound is fuller and richer. Sound stage from different sitting position is much better. Audyssey EQ measures sound (from high-low test tone from each speaker) from 6-8 sitting positions (6 in mine, 8 in 4806 and higher Denons)...and then equalizes each speaker to provide the best sound for the sitting area(s). In addition to positioning my Vantages (heavy toe-in), the Audyssey software has definitely made a difference in sound imaging for all sitting areas on my U-shaped couch.

Thus, i am a fan of Audyssey, esp. because i don't know enough to manually adjust the settings for each speaker. BTW, Yamaha receivers also has a good auto-EQ software that easily rivals Audyssey in Denons.
 
Very interesting thread! I've also been thinking (a lot) about room correction/equalization options but was not sure if it works as well for dipole ML's as for dynamic speakers. Based on the above responses, apparently it DOES! There are SO many choices on how to implement this now... Tact, Behringer, DEQX, Audyssey, and others. There's even an implementation being developed server-side for the Slimdevices Squeezebox/Transporter... http://www.inguzaudio.com

Decisions. Decisions.
 
It should work with any speakers because the test tones are projected from each speaker to a microphone at the listening area. Therefore, reflected sound and direct sound are all accounted for...at least, i would think so. In fact, i know some people that mix & match speakers because they rely on the Auto-EQ to calibrate them to all sound the same.
 
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One opinion -- Audyssey definite plus

And my $0.02 worth follows.

I have heard a few versions of the Yamaha software (YPAO) and some of the Audyssey software in Denon receivers, but not the standalone Audyssey. Bottom line is that unless you're greatly experienced in room EQ setup (which I am not) any room correction is better than none. I do like the Audyssey "sound" better that the Yamaha "sound", but much of that is based on specific systems in different rooms... no head-to-head comparisons.

I have a Denon 5805MKII, which runs the Audyssey MultEQ software (the 5805CI has that software and upgradability to the MultEQ XT Pro software.) It currently drives Odysseys, a Cinema i and Fresco surrounds. The Audyssey MultEQ functions much as others have described here; the advantage lies in the time-domain adjustment for multiple seating positions and matrixing for room factors. You can manually override the various system parameters as desired... but as others have noted, that can lead to bad results if you don't know what you're doing. It also has distinct "sounds" for two-channel versus 5.1, which isn't surprising but offers interesting listening options, particularly with the various surround-sound options.

I should think that judicious room treatments would do much to clear up issues in a particular room, but as a starting place, room correction software is clearly much better than I can do with two ears and a sound meter :eek: I've found that I prefer two-channel for TV vice 5.1 -- the Cinema i is strongly center-focused, while the two-channel mix is more consistent from various angles (precisely what it should do!) For movies, 5.1 is wicked good :D I've heard details I never heard from my previous HTIB Denon system, which is to be expected, but worth every penny of the upgrade. Now, if I could only get Charter (the bastages!) to provide HD service....
 
eq,room

remember Lexicon offers room eq in the Mc12 v5eq which is excellent it uses 4 mic's to do the processing these are purchased seperately. you can find the mc12 and mikes on the used market at very attractive prices, i feel it is better than the denon or meridan. check around and ask some of the dealers that handle Lexicon. Lexicon has been in this type of business alot longer that any other manufacture out there. they also have an excellent trade in program. good listening.
 
CES news

CES came and went and in terms of room EQ, we heard some great news:

First and most relevant to all of us here, SVS announced a sub$1K room corrector for subwoofers.
So no matter what brand of sub you have (excepting Velo DD series, which already have room EQ), this WILL make a positive difference in your system.

http://www.svsound.com/CES2007/SVS_AudyessyRelease.pdf


Denon announced new Separates line. Giving us all the power of their awesome 58xx series in a pre-pro config. News and pics here:
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESprocessors/DenonSeparates.php

Full multiEQ XT room correction in this new reference pre-pro
 
Denon 3808CI on it's way!

Weighing all my needs (and budget), I decided to go with the Denon 3808CI, which includes the Audyssey MultiEQ program (can optionally be set up by a certified installer using Audyssey Pro). I figure even the consumer level MultiEQ includes enough basic functionality to deal with most of my room issues. The 3808 has wired Cat5 connectivity, allowing online firmware updates, and access to networked music servers and internet radio (though I have the Squeezebox for that).

For those considering a Denon/Audyssey solution, I discovered (thanks to AVS forum), that 6ave.com is one of the few Denon authorized online dealers. I ended up calling them and dealt with David, who was very helpful, and gave me permission to share his contact info with the MLOC (877-684-2831 x 8474). I'm not sure if they'll be carrying the new Denon separates, but they are certainly offering excellent pricing for the other Audyssey capable units.
 
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Just got the Denon 3808ci today, and all I can say is WOW! A/V receiver technology has sure changed the past 8 years! This baby is a handful to configure... with TWO remotes and waaaay too many menu and button options! No way my wife and kids will be able to use this!

After being stymied for 45 mins, I finally figured out how to set up the networking, and am now d/l the latest firmware. Looks like I'll hafta wait until this weekend to actually hook everything up and take a listen. Can't wait to start playing with the Audyssey system. I'll post more updates later.
 
Moderately on-topic: just a thumbs-up for 6ave. I've ordered stuff from them before, and haven't had any problems. It's been awhile, so I don't remember exactly what I ordered from them :), I think it was my Canon MiniDV camcorder.
 
Just got the Denon 3808ci today, and all I can say is WOW! A/V receiver technology has sure changed the past 8 years! This baby is a handful to configure... with TWO remotes and waaaay too many menu and button options! No way my wife and kids will be able to use this!

After being stymied for 45 mins, I finally figured out how to set up the networking, and am now d/l the latest firmware. Looks like I'll hafta wait until this weekend to actually hook everything up and take a listen. Can't wait to start playing with the Audyssey system. I'll post more updates later.


Alan, great news!

Keep us posted on your results.
 
Finally found some time to run the Audyssey MultiEQ XT, and at this point I'm quite impressed. I am feeding the Denon Front L/R Pre-outs through my Modwright Home Theater Bypass, thus driving my Summits with my Belles amp. I am using the Denon to drive my Motif center and surrounds, with LFE fed to my NHT Sub Two.

The measurement process was surprisingly easy. The mic has a tripod mount, allowing easy placement at ear level in various locations. Plugging the mic into the receiver automatically starts the EQ program, with each step prompted on the HDTV on-screen display. I ran 8 total measurements, starting with the sweet spot, then moving to various listening positions. Initially, the Audyssey gave me an error message, warning the Summits and Motif were wired out of phase (not true). That apparently can happen when measuring dipole speakers, and I was able to manually override it and proceed. The subsequent measurements went without a hitch, and Audyssey nailed the speaker distances to within 6", which was reassuring. After it's final calculation, it was interesting to note that it bumped up my right Summit +1.0 dB, which made sense as it sits adjacent to an open hallway. I had never noticed any sonic impact from the room asymmetry, but Audyssey clearly picked it up. Before and after listening showed substantial improvement with the residual bass boominess of my setup, which I had tried to manually fix by dialing down the Summit woofer controls at 50 Hz. I plan to run Audyssey again, using NO woofer attentuation whatsoever, and see how Audyssey handles that. Post-listening also revealed MUCH improved clarity/balance of vocals vs. surround effects, with DVD playback. I still need to figure out how to best manage my NHT Sub Two, as it has continuously adjustable phase control from 0-180 degrees, and I'm not sure how to set it prior to running the EQ. Guess I'll adjust it manually for optimal sound by ear to start, then let Audyssey do it's thing.

I wish Audyssey had an option to save MULTIPLE corrections, for easy comparison, but each new setting overwrites the old. This is where having a full-fledged program with printable room acoustic measurement charts (like Jonfo uses) would be helpful. Perhaps the soon-to-be-released XTZ Room Analyzer will fit the bill (see post http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=61294&postcount=78).

The main NEGATIVE with the Denon 3808CI implementation of the Audyssey MultiEQ XT, is that my Modwright (tube) pre for serious two-channel listening still sounds much more "musical" to me, vs. the SS Denon as a Pre/Pro. I'd need to buy the stand-alone Audyssey Sound Equalizer in order to use it with my Modwright. Instead, I'm planning on adding some WAF-tolerable bass traps behind my audio rack and video cabinet, to further tame the lower end, and which will further improve what Audyssey does for home theater.

I'll post more f/u comments as I continue experimenting in the weeks ahead.
 
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Thanks for that nice rundown! (I no longer have any interest in HT, although when I did, I had the best there was for that time ;)) But the Denon/Audyssey sounds like a great combo and I was wondering why it couldn't be used to dial-in your 2 channel system as well (i.e. while using the Modwright)? Or does the Denon have to be hooked up to amps/speakers in order for the analyzer to do its thing?
 
My local dealer is bringing in the Copland "room correction" device (http://www.divertech.com/coplanddrc205.html). I hope to have an in-house trial within a few months. I'm also considering bass traps. I would like to increase lower frequency impact but if I turn up the woofer controls on the Summits beyond "0" I get a boomy sound.
 
Hi Alan, Great to hear you are getting going on the setup with the new receiver.

One of the things to watch for with these automated EQ systems is that they are easily fooled by dipole speakers. So watch those midrange corrections and make sure it’s not over-correcting.

Also, as I’ve documenting in the Treatments thread, it really looks like our speakers benefit the most from rear wave absorption. I would think that if you put something like a RealTrap Mini HF behind your Summits and then re-do the Audyssey, you’d see and hear much better results.

Regarding the Center being out of phase, If the Audyssey results are repeatable, then I’d trust it. My Logos was out of phase with the Monoliths (acoustically), so I reversed the phase and it was better.

But sometimes it’s a false positive due to the dipole nature of these speakers, and the rear wave (which is out of phase) reads higher. I’d wait until you’ve treated the rear waves of the Summits and see.

The improvements in the bass are most noticeable with EQ. But it’s so much better with the right room treatments.

My advice these days is treatments first, then EQ.

Keep us posted on how it goes.
 

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