Original Summits vs Summit X's

[babydoc]

I am considering trading in my original Summits for the X's. I have had them for about 3 years and have been very happy with them. There is no dealer anywhere near me with X's so I have no way of doing a direct A/B which is obviously the best.
Has anyone in Loganowners group had this experience? It would be extremely helpful since no dealer is exactly giving these speakers away.
I would have loved to go directly to the CLX's but my room is not big enough and more importantly they are too heavy to move (weigh more than I do!)

 

[tonepub]

where do you live?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Based on the information published by ML describing the new "X" updates, the only significant one (from a performance standpoint) appears to be a revised crossover design.

What differences would you expect?

By the by, there have been a couple of other threads dealing with this topic. You may want to check them out.

GG

 

[Rich]

Do you have any acoustical treatments in your room? What level is the rest of your gear at?

What I am getting at here is that the performance difference between the Summit and the Summit X probably isn't that great, especially considering the price difference between the two. Rather than spending thousands of dollars upgrading to the latest, greatest version of this speaker, I would think that you could spend that money on other upgrades to your system and get a whole lot more bang for the buck. Unless you are getting the most out of the Summits right now with all reference-level components and acoustic treatment, then why upgrade to the X? Just something to think about.

 

[sleepysurf]

Do you have any acoustical treatments in your room? What level is the rest of your gear at?

What I am getting at here is that the performance difference between the Summit and the Summit X probably isn't that great, especially considering the price difference between the two. Rather than spending thousands of dollars upgrading to the latest, greatest version of this speaker, I would think that you could spend that money on other upgrades to your system and get a whole lot more bang for the buck. Unless you are getting the most out of the Summits right now with all reference-level components and acoustic treatment, then why upgrade to the X? Just something to think about.

Ditto! Optimize your acoustics first! Also, it would be great to see your (current) system posted here!

 

[Gordon]

I think a lot of people, including myself, give up on a speaker before we have pushed it to the limit. I jumped around the Paradigm line up for several years and never even considered my source, amps, wires and room treatments in the equation. Hindsight is great, just wish I had all the unnecessarily spent money today.

I would think the difficult question to be is when do we reach that point? I'm not certain at this point I have pushed the Spire to its limit even if I consider my other equipment pretty good. On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if the Spire is holding my gear back from its potential. Tough question for sure.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

Gordon, you have some great Mac gear and the Spire is an awesome speaker. Honestly, speaking as someone who has tried and rejected the Mapleshade golden helix speaker cables and their IC's, my guess is that is the weak link in your system right now. I would encourage you to audition some other speaker cables and IC's and see if you don't find something that improves the sound of your already impressive system. And don't forget acoustic treatments, if you haven't already experimented with them.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Respectfully disagree my friend.

As we all know, it's all about synergy.

Gordon

 

[Gordon]

Rich I have a confession to make. I haven't updated my gear list in a bit. Since I went to a fully balanced system, the Mapleshade ICs would not work since they are RCAs. I replaced them with WireWorld Silver Eclipse 5 Squared XLRs. This was my second attempt at silver in my system. While the WW were much smoother than the Signals, I still could not tolerate them for long and replaced them with the WW Eclipse 5 Squared which is copper. I haven't heard them yet because I'm out of town.

I also removed the MS Golden Helix speaker wire and replaced them with the WW Eclipse 6 Squared. Those brought more body to the sound. I'm anxiously anticipating installing the new copper ICs and see how this combination works out.

Six traps have been installed in our "living" room and I probably could use six more to round it out. But, based on Gordon Gray's input, I'm researching the use of some spikes and BDR pits to isolate the Spires a bit before I add more traps. Sorry Ethan!

Gordon

 

[Rich]

Gordon Gray: I fully expected that you might disagree with my thoughts on that, knowing how you like the Mapleshade products. No problem. Everyone has their own taste. And I do agree that synergy is very important, which is why I was careful to suggest that Gordon audition other cables in order to see if they might improve his sound. But I see from his post that he is well on his way to trying something else. Personally, I tried the Mapleshade wire in both of my systems and I just wasn't overly impressed with it in either system.

Gordon: I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the impact of the new IC's. Like you, I changed to a balanced system and that was when I moved on from the Mapleshade IC's. And as I experimented, I too found the Mapleshade speaker cables lacked body in my system. The silver worked fine for me in my system, but I have heard others complain of the brightness with silver. As GG says, it is all dependent on system synergy and personal preference. Glad to see you are working on acoustic treatments. I agree with GG that isolating the Spires will help your sound a lot.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Rich,

I will be the first to admit that MS cables error on the less body / more transperancy side of the equation, which for me, is an attractive sonic signature.

As I'm sure you recall when you so graciously visited my home, I was concerned that you might find my system a bit lean and bright.

Since then, I replaced the MS IC's with DH Labs (silver based), purchased (on your sage advice) the BDR pits to address the speaker / floor vibration issue, and also purchased a Furman PLC.

The most recent addition was installing 4 - 24" X 24" / 2" thick ATS Acoustic panels on the windows, a 24" X 24" / 4" thick panel on each side wall, and 3 -16" X 24" / 2" thick panels below the windows.

The end result maintained the somewhat live character of the room (my preference) but dampened some of the reflectivity, which resulted in an increase in midrange body, a better defined top end, and a more controlled -defined mid / deep bass presentation.

I'm glad Gordon continues to experiment with different options to make his system more musically engaging. I trust we all agree that this is the primary goal of our hobby, which is to connect to the music.

Hope all is well with you and your family.

Best,

Gordon Gray

PS: Back to the thread. One of these days, I would like to read a review I can trust that compares the original Summit with the "X", with all other things being equal.

 

[Rich]

I'm glad Gordon continues to experiment with different options to make his system more musically engaging. I trust we all agree that this is the primary goal of our hobby, which is to connect to the music.

Amen to that! And I, too, would love to hear a credible comparison of the two Summits sometime. My guess is the differences are pretty minor.

Looking forward to hearing the changes in your system next time I'm out in Jackson Hole. No idea when that will be. Take care, my friend.

 

[lhpcope]

Does anyone have an idea what the xover differences are, sans marketing hype voodoo?

 

[David Matz]

Doesn't the new Summit also have "controlled dispersion" benefits?

"Controlled Dispersion. Another key attribute of an electrostatic speaker is its naturally dipolar radiation pattern. A true dipole transducer radiates with equal intensity from the front and back of its diaphragm, but the outputs are in opposite phase. As a result, sound waves rippling out toward the sides meet at the speaker's edge and cancel. That and the relatively large size of a typical electrostatic panel cause output at the sides to be very low relative to that of a conventional loudspeaker, which in turn minimizes side-wall reflections that tend to muddle sonic detail and stereo imaging. While the reduction in output to the sides contributes to the astonishing clarity for which electrostats are revered, the energy reflected off the wall behind the speaker opens up and deepens the sound. ...

Focusing wave launch above 160Hz to the front and back of the speaker effectively mimics the controlled dispersion pattern inherent to our electrostatic transducers. This allows the output of the dynamic woofer and electrostatic transducers to operate with a cohesive, aligned wave launch creating a seamless sonic presentation across the full range of sound while minimizing side wall reflections that muddle sonic detail and stereo imaging..."

 

[DrJRapp]

Doesn't the new Summit also have "controlled dispersion" benefits?

"Controlled Dispersion. Another key attribute of an electrostatic speaker is its naturally dipolar radiation pattern. A true dipole transducer radiates with equal intensity from the front and back of its diaphragm, but the outputs are in opposite phase. As a result, sound waves rippling out toward the sides meet at the speaker's edge and cancel. That and the relatively large size of a typical electrostatic panel cause output at the sides to be very low relative to that of a conventional loudspeaker, which in turn minimizes side-wall reflections that tend to muddle sonic detail and stereo imaging. While the reduction in output to the sides contributes to the astonishing clarity for which electrostats are revered, the energy reflected off the wall behind the speaker opens up and deepens the sound. ...

Focusing wave launch above 160Hz to the front and back of the speaker effectively mimics the controlled dispersion pattern inherent to our electrostatic transducers. This allows the output of the dynamic woofer and electrostatic transducers to operate with a cohesive, aligned wave launch creating a seamless sonic presentation across the full range of sound while minimizing side wall reflections that muddle sonic detail and stereo imaging..."

I think that is just adding some new words to what has been there all along in the Vista, Vantage, Summit and Spire.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I am considering trading in my original Summits for the X's. I have had them for about 3 years and have been very happy with them. There is no dealer anywhere near me with X's so I have no way of doing a direct A/B which is obviously the best.
Has anyone in Loganowners group had this experience? It would be extremely helpful since no dealer is exactly giving these speakers away.
I would have loved to go directly to the CLX's but my room is not big enough and more importantly they are too heavy to move (weigh more than I do!)

because you have not chimed back in I am going to assume it's either because you are busy or that your up stream equipment is not that great. I once felt that the speakers where everything but then again I do not know everything! I have recently been upgrading my two channel gear and have noticed huge improvements over the equipment I owned before which I thought (the rest of the world thinks is top of the line outside clubs such as these) was great for music but it wasn't and that's what these speakers are really designed to do.you have a great set and if you are happy with them why buy new just for the sake of buying new. what's the difference in monetary value I bet you could get what for your summits? 6k then let's say you get the summit X's for 14k plus tax for about 14.5k rough math but lets go with that that's a difference of about what $8,500.00 I could think of better things to spend that money on in my system that would make a difference in my system for sure than a new set of speakers.I say this only because you have summits.heck if you told me that I could upgrade to summit x's from my spires for like 5k flat out I would still rather spend that money on upstream equipment I think .I really think this one depends on what you are driving your current speakers with and how big your wallet is. I could easily justify spending $20,000.00+++ on equipment to drive summits and until you have I am not sure it will be worth the upgrade

just my 2cents and it is an opinion from a person who has an evolving knowledge of this hobby

 

[Kaliar]

Probably busy !

because you have not chimed back in I am going to assume it's either because you are busy or that your up stream equipment is not that great. (...)

Hi,

It would be prudent not to assume that his upstream equipment is "not that great" !

As witnessed on Audiogon in Virtual Systems, Babydoc has a fabulous system in a dedicated room, acoustically treated.

The list of its sources (dCS stack, Esoteric P-03/D-03, VPI TNT-HRX, etc...) is mighty impressive, to say the least ! :drool:

What more can I say, someone using 4 Nordost Thor (A/C power distribution) units and 4 subwoofers (2 Descent + 2 Descent i) is to be taken seriously ! :bowdown:

Regards,

 

[FISH_MAN]

Hi,

It would be prudent not to assume that his upstream equipment is "not that great" !

As witnessed on Audiogon in Virtual Systems, Babydoc has a fabulous system in a dedicated room, acoustically treated.

The list of its sources (dCS stack, Esoteric P-03/D-03, VPI TNT-HRX, etc...) is mighty impressive, to say the least ! :drool:

What more can I say, someone using 4 Nordost Thor (A/C power distribution) units and 4 subwoofers (2 Descent + 2 Descent i) is to be taken seriously ! :bowdown:

Regards,

My bad! go for the summit X then Martin Logan made them for a reason not because they are not better

 

[Kaliar]

My bad! (...)

No problem, you could not know since Babydoc's current system is not posted on this site !

Take care,

 

[babydoc]

Thanks for the feedback

Summary of current system:
Pass xp-20 preamp
Pass X-350.5 amp
Lexicon 12 HD (B) processor
Pass X-3 amp
2 Pass X-ono preamps
VPI HRX with 12.7/rim drive/clearaudio Goldfinger
VPI Aries with 10.5i/clearaudio Stradivari
Esoteric P0-3/D-03/G-Orb/Ux-1/Pi
4 Nordost Thors
Main cabling Nordost Odin
Supplemental Calbing Nordost Valhalla
Summit/Stage/Script-i/
4 Descent subwoofers
Room is treated with combination of Echobusters and wall treatment

I would like CLX's but room is only 21x15 and these speakers require more space. Therefore, the decision of Summit vs Summit X is most relevant.
Any help is appreciated.