New Home construction – building it Martin Logan style

[greg2putt]

Hi, I’m hoping to gain help from the group to take maximum advantage of my Martin Logan collection. My ‘dream’ home located in coastal NC will have a Great Room approximately 18 x 25 in size (10’ ceilings, vaulted to 13’ in center) with a Martin Logan 5.1 system – Summit, Stage, Fresco I, Descent I. I also intend to use the Summits with Descent I for critical 2 channel audiophile listening. I’m planning on breaking ground mid-2014 with completion in early 2015, which hopefully provides good timing to pick up a 70”+ 4K OLED Smart TV monitor to complete the Great Room system. The house plan is an open plan with an open archway to the combination kitchen and dining area which will have another 40” TV installed on the back wall with Passage speakers surrounding it. More information and an initial Chief Architect architecture plan are included in the attachment – nc audio2.zip.
You’ll note that I’m planning a rack closet for audio components adjacent to the Great Room, which will also contain rack slots for my Smart House controller – right now Control4 is my preference.
1. My initial questions for the group concern the AC wiring for the Summits which will be situated too far from the rack closet for the ML manufacturer cables to reach. Should I try and have AC wiring that dead-ends back in the rack closet and then to Panamax 7500-PRO - Power Conditioner? Ideally, the Summit AC outlets might be on the room back wall or on the floor (hardwood floor over cement slab). Alternatives, recommendations sought.
2. Where should I plan on positioning the Descent I? Near the wall of glass windows / sliders at back of house behind left Summit or behind right Summit on inside wall near rack closet? Same question on AC wiring for Descent I. Should I plan on an AC wiring into closet and then to Panamax 7500-PRO - Power Conditioner?
3. I’m planning on a Linear fireplace installed near floor level (current favorite choice is Fireside Red60 - link). I’d like to mount the Stage recessed at a safe distance above the fireplace --- What would be a safe distance? Perhaps 24 inches. Alternatively, should I plan on mounting the Stage above the TV? You’ll see a rough architectural plan of this in the nc audio2.zip file.
a. Regarding AC wiring for the Stage. Should I also plan on an AC outlet on the wall that dead-ends in the closet and plugs-in to the Panamax?
I’ve also gone ahead and outlined my AC plans for the rack closet in the file attached – nc audio.zip. You’ll note that I’ve learned much from this group regarding use of two Hospital Grade 20 AMP circuits in the closet. My takeaways from this group are reflected in the AC connection plans in the aforementioned file. Is this an optimal approach based on my equipment plans?
Thanks in advance for comments recommendations as I begin this journey from planning through execution in the near future. I’ll continue to research a host of other questions and insights I’ll need help on including speaker wiring runs, AMPS, PrePro, Room Acoustics and home automation.
Greg

 

[JonFo]

Hi Greg, first off, next time you post, please find and use the return key and create some readable paragraphs, the wall of text above was hard to parse (and likely why few responses so far).

To answer your questions:

#1 Yes, do create dedicated home runs of cable for outlets used to power your speakers, since most ML models now have active electronics (vs just the old ESL energizer circuit of the past), it is best to have those on the same ground-plane as the rest of the gear as well as filtered and isolated.
I did that in my room as well, all outlets (I put in 8 for my large multichannel setup) around the room all go back to one 20A feeder plug in my equipment room. I then feed filtered and balanced power out to all my speakers.

#2 This very, very room dependent, but research has shown that the smoothest response for a single sub is found by positioning it half-way along the front wall. But like many non-dedicated rooms, it’s not practical to put it there (in front of your fireplace). So your proposed location might be what you have to live with. A good room corrector can help mitigate that to some extent.


#3. TV/Stage mounting. Man, this is yet another reason fireplaces should be banned ;-)
That huge TV mounted that high up will give every seated viewer massive next strain. But if above the mantle is where you want it, then that’s where it will need to go.

The stage should go below it. The top edge of the Stage should not be higher than the top of the Summits.

Since it looks like you might be going for a more contemporary look, I have some ideas on how to treat the stage for both acoustics and visual appearance. We can tackle that in another response.

#4 Stage wiring, go ahead and spec an outlet right behind where you plan to put the stage, sun that circuit into the same feeder described in my response #1. Also, put in another electrical box and run the speaker cable from the equipment closet to the location behind the stage for the center channel audio signal. Since you’re doing in wall wiring, go ahead and run a CAT5 cable in the box as well to future-proof in case you upgrade to an active center channel in the future.

Looking at your spreadsheets, you are absolutely on the right track. But I’ll note that you’ll probably need better/more power conditioning to cover the amps/speakers. One panamax will not do it (I don’t think).

 

[greg2putt]

WOW,
Firstly Jonathan, I'm thrilled with your response and of course apologize for my stream of conscious, verbose introductory paragraph.
There's so much I can learn from you. First, I visited your MLO system overview which then took me to your website --- WOW. VERY impressive and certainly a source of fabulous instruction for me. I humbly request your guidance and insight on all kinds of topics starting with power, but I suspect we'll end up talking about room acoustics before we're done. I'll also probe you about automation..... but first I have to do my homework on Cebotics before I'm qualified to gain from your experience.

Again, I have a little over a year to learn and refine my plans and make strategic purchases.

Back to A/C, wiring and power conditioning.
1) Will I need two 20A feeder plugs in my equipment room? One for the sub and one for the rest of the speakers - 2 Summits & Stage. Perhaps also the TV circuit should be included since usually I'll use the TV speakers, but sometimes I'll want to run the broadcast TV through the HT system and so electrically they'll be linked. (Unless I need education on how to avoid this via wiring of cable signal to TV and to PrePro yet to be purchased). Hopefully, I won't need another power conditioner.... but will learn more along the way.
2) Sub advice --- great. We'll find a way.
3) You're right about the TV higher than ideal. The Red60 fireplace if installed at 'floor level' tops out at 51" for the framing. Mantel on top of that, then Stage, then TV. Not ideal unless I explore having the fireplace recessed into cement foundational floor. Thoughts welcome on this if it's a topic your an expert in.
4) Great advice about Stage wiring with CAT5.
5) PrePro advice - I'm thinking of Cary Cinema 12, or perhaps Sherbourn since it was to have Control4 capability. I'd love an Anthem D2v but awful pricey. I've always been following the Denon and Integra lines and would consider their best models released in spring of 2015. (I'll buy this last along with 4K OLED).
6) I'm always studying the review of AMPs and have Anthem P5 at the top of my list. I'd like to decide if I'm going this way BEFORE finalizing house wiring so I have appropriate 20A lines in 'closet'. Based on your system I think I need to include Sunfire in my finalist set? If so, suggestions on good source with great pricing as I might acquire the 'AMP' anytime.
7) Power for JBL Control 30 Professional outdoor speaker. Should I pick up a standard rack power AMP (100Watt peak minimum) from whatever installer I engage with?
8) I'm planning on the rack room to be 2 x 6 construction (my data center). Will study your rack cooling solution. More later.

Jonathan, thanks again for accompanying on my journey!

 

[Spike]

6) I'm always studying the review of AMPs and have Anthem P5 at the top of my list. I'd like to decide if I'm going this way BEFORE finalizing house wiring so I have appropriate 20A lines in 'closet'. Based on your system I think I need to include Sunfire in my finalist set? If so, suggestions on good source with great pricing as I might acquire the 'AMP' anytime.

I can't help but notice that you're currently powering your Summits with Rowland 201 monoblocs. What do you find lacking with the Rowlands to lead you to looking at amps to replace them? IIRC, the Rowlands are very capable and musical amps. Moving to another amp might be just a lateral move, not necessarily a better move.

 

[greg2putt]

Wonderfully astute question.
I absolutely love the Rowlands which have great musicality and perform flawlessly with all types of material and volumes.
You hit my dilemma on the head! I need amplification for Stage and Fresco I rear speakers (thankfully Descent I is self-sufficient). So what do I buy? What amp do I pair up with the Rowlands or do I end up 'starting over' with Anthem P5, Sunfire, etc.

Reminder that I need amplification for my: 1) outdoor JBL Control 30 speakers --- 60lb massive outdoor speakers that can hypothetically benefit from 100+ watts.. (although the neighbors may not be always pleased) and 2) Carolina/Keeper Room "dining room' wall mounted Passage speakers.

Obviously, understanding the direction I'm going with AMPs will help in AC wiring to the closet, AC (conduit based) to the powered speakers and planned (conduit) 10/2 speaker wire runs to the respective speakers with possibility of bi-AMPing the Summits. Then also conduit for all HDMI / CAT5, etc. TV wiring.

Suggestions welcome!

(PS - I intend to implement a media closet and would like to have total Iphone / Ipad automation of my system sequencing on / off of components based on desired modality - 2 channel, 2 channel + Descent I, 5.1 channel, outdoor only, ALL SPEAKERS ON. )

 

[Spike]

Wonderfully astute question.
I absolutely love the Rowlands which have great musicality and perform flawlessly with all types of material and volumes.

Why not keep the Rowlands and get a 3-channel amplifier to drive the rest of the speakers (Stage & Fresco). If you want to be future-proof, get a 5-channel and be ready for 7.1 set-up ;-) I really think the Rowlands are keepers and you'll be happy with them in the long run for 2-channel listening.

Obviously, understanding the direction I'm going with AMPs will help in AC wiring to the closet, AC (conduit based) to the powered speakers and planned (conduit) 10/2 speaker wire runs to the respective speakers with possibility of bi-AMPing the Summits. Then also conduit for all HDMI / CAT5, etc. TV wiring.

No need to bi-amp the Summits. They are by definition bi-amped with their internal bass amplifiers already. The Rowlands are only there to power the panels.

 

[greg2putt]

I'm delighted to add a 3 channel AMP for the Stage and Fresco I speakers and then go with rack amps for the Passage and Control 4.
Regarding 3 channel AMP the only option that comes to mind is the Anthem MCA 30. Would you have other recommendations for me to consider?

 

[Spike]

I'm delighted to add a 3 channel AMP for the Stage and Fresco I speakers and then go with rack amps for the Passage and Control 4.
Regarding 3 channel AMP the only option that comes to mind is the Anthem MCA 30. Would you have other recommendations for me to consider?

I am not well-versed in multi-channel or hometheater applications so take my comments with a grain of salt. Please elaborate on your sonic goals for this system: 2-channel audio with occasional home-theater blast? or mostly home-theater experience with occasional 2-channel listening? How critical are you with home-theater and 2-channel? For example, my focus is 2-channel and my center channel is there for the occasional home-theater romp. I don't even have a 5.1 set-up! That said, off the top of my head, I can recall Parasound A31, Bryston 6BSST, and McIntosh as having 3-channel amplifiers in addition to the Anthem. I am sure there are lots more than the ones I mentioned. If I were you, I would look for a modular chassis where I have an option to add more channels later on if I want to. For example, the now-discontinued ARC 150M (modular) multichannel amplifier can be ordered with 3 channels to start with and then add 2 more modules later to turn into a 5-channel amp. The BAT VK6200 has similar concept.

 

[greg2putt]

Thanks for the recommendations...
I took a few minutes to characterize our weekly listening modalities in retirement:
- 5.1 channel - 3 movies per week --- 6 hours
- critical listening with Summits - 2 or 2.1 channel - 5 hours week
- kitchen/dining - background music (Passage) --- 20 hours week
- outdoor / summer kitchen / background - 10 hours per week... (JBL Control30)

Bottom line, the Summits will only be used when it's time to sit and enjoy. Otherwise, mostly jazz/ easy listening on other systems.

I'll do homework on the brands you mentioned and start a prioritization / ranking of options.

THANKS!

 

[greg2putt]

Spike,
My evening research has me really excited about adding Parasound to my overall system - the reviews were excellent and the tonality of these units will work great with Rowlands!
- Parasound A31 for Front Stage and Fresco I rears to complement existing Jeff Rowland on Summits
- Parasound A21 for Passage in Carolina/Keeper Kitchen room
- Parasound A21 for JBL Control 30 - outdoor speakers.
Any other options to consider?
Now I'm wondering if there's a dealer who would provide an attractive buy on the 3 units?

 

[Spike]

- Parasound A31 for Front Stage and Fresco I rears to complement existing Jeff Rowland on Summits
- Parasound A21 for Passage in Carolina/Keeper Kitchen room
- Parasound A21 for JBL Control 30 - outdoor speakers.
Any other options to consider?

Do you really need Parasound A21 for background listening? If you are not that critical, don't waste money on the A21 where you're indifferent about the sound quality for those applications.

Thinking along another approach, basically you need a total of 7 channels with capability to discretely turn on each group/pair on-demand. I stumbled on this multi-zone amplifier from Bryston:

Bryston D250Z amplifier

Spec-wise, it looks pretty sweet and looks to be an ideal fit for your needs. I have no idea how it sounds, though. You should do some more research on this unit.

 

[greg2putt]

Spike,

I've always been wishing to have a Bryston AMP but price and wattage combination was always a concern until you pointed out the D250Z unit .. a relatively new model. There's not much in the way of reviews available. Therefore, I'm not sure of musicality or power adequacy but then again, it is a Bryston which are units noted for over delivering against specs.
What I did note in the PDF file at Bryston website was the following "Although the nominal output power per channel of the D250 is 110 Watts per channel with all channels driven, actual power output can exceed 150 Watts when 6 channels are driven, 230 Watts per channel when only 4 channels are driven or 290 Watts per channel when 3 channels are driven". This make me wonder if, on those VERY rare occasions when I have ALL speakers on, will the overall volume / clarity of the output be adequate and if there potentially could be clipping??
I think I'll patiently monitor the Bryston D250Z website and review sites and see if this solution could serve my needs. Certainly, a Bryston unit is not an inexpensive solution, so I want to be sure a single piece could handle all these needs.
(Question --- if the speaker wire runs are 40 or 50 feet from the AMP to the speaker, even with 10/2 wire, there will be a greater need for the AMP to have adequate Watts at both 8 and 4 ohms?)

 

[Spike]

Hi Greg,
I can see the Parasound A31 for the HT system. If I have to stretch, I can probably justify for the A21 for background listening. I cannot justify for an A21 for the outdoor speakers. For the outdoor speakers, I would get an older "gently used" Bryston to drive the long cables. Just my 2-cents.

 

[greg2putt]

Spike,
We're on the same page. I'll monitor what's happening with Bryston D250Z single solution but might pull the trigger on a Parasound A31, if I see an opportunity. From there I can pick up rack mount server(s) from a few companies and address Passage and JBL Control30 outdoor speakers either collectively or individually.

I'm going to hold off on PrePro selection until late 2014/5 when I'm closer to moving into the newly constructed home. Lots may change in this space in terms of capabilities but the manufacturer choices will likely remain the same leaders as today (Anthem, Bryston, Denon, Integra, Cary, and maybe Sherbourne?). Anybody else to follow? (Price target is $3K to $6K)

In the meantime, I need to read up on home automation options which now include the solution that Jonathan (JonFo) has implemented from Cebotics.

Greg

 

[JonFo]

...
Back to A/C, wiring and power conditioning.
1) Will I need two 20A feeder plugs in my equipment room? One for the sub and one for the rest of the speakers - 2 Summits & Stage. Perhaps also the TV circuit should be included since usually I'll use the TV speakers, but sometimes I'll want to run the broadcast TV through the HT system and so electrically they'll be linked. (Unless I need education on how to avoid this via wiring of cable signal to TV and to PrePro yet to be purchased). Hopefully, I won't need another power conditioner.... but will learn more along the way.

I think you will indeed need substantial power feeds into the equipment closet. There are several ways of doing this. The simplest is to have multiple 20A feeds and use two conditioners, one for all the low level gear and maybe the secondary amps, and one for the big amps & the sub.
Make sure both circuits are from the same source panel AND the same phase (that means alternating breaker positions in most panels).

The alternative is to create a power subsystem in that closet by bringing in a 30 to 45amp 240 feed to a wall-mounted isolation transformer in the gear closet. That isolation transformer then feeds two or three sub-circuits for your audio/video gear, and generally eliminates the need for things like the Panamax.
Products from Torus or Equi+Tech will do a great job. read this thread about the pros and cons of each and other power-related topics.
As a data point, I use an EquiTech 5KVA box and love the results.

And as always, please add a Surge Protection Device (SPD) to the service entry panel, as that's where it will do the most good not only for your gear, but for the rest of the homes electronics. Also, way cheaper than AV-oriented stuff which has huge markups.

...
5) PrePro advice - I'm thinking of Cary Cinema 12, or perhaps Sherbourn since it was to have Control4 capability. I'd love an Anthem D2v but awful pricey. I've always been following the Denon and Integra lines and would consider their best models released in spring of 2015. (I'll buy this last along with 4K OLED).

In your price range, please look at the Marantz 8801 pre-pro, it is a very nice upgraded variant of the Denon 4250 AVR. So solid processing and control, coupled with Marantz enhanced power and analog subsections. several of my AVP-owning buddies are trying this one out and giving it high praise sonically, and love the features.

I'd stay away from mixing control (as in the Sherbourn) and pre-pro. You usually get serious compromises on both sides of the equation.

...
6) I'm always studying the review of AMPs and have Anthem P5 at the top of my list. I'd like to decide if I'm going this way BEFORE finalizing house wiring so I have appropriate 20A lines in 'closet'. Based on your system I think I need to include Sunfire in my finalist set? If so, suggestions on good source with great pricing as I might acquire the 'AMP' anytime.
7) Power for JBL Control 30 Professional outdoor speaker. Should I pick up a standard rack power AMP (100Watt peak minimum) from whatever installer I engage with?

While I love and recommend the Sunfires, I'd recommend a Sanders Sound systems ESL amp for your summits, as it will get the most out them.

...
8) I'm planning on the rack room to be 2 x 6 construction (my data center). Will study your rack cooling solution. More later.

Jonathan, thanks again for accompanying on my journey!

Yes, remember to get enough airflow through that room. I've found that my one ton AC unit dedicated to that room is kept busy (but not maxed) during the summer.

The other thing to plan for is access, it's very, very important to be able to get at the rear of the gear without too much impediment. I've helped several guys set up complex systems in closets or gear nooks that were not well planned and it's a bear.

 

[JonFo]

In the meantime, I need to read up on home automation options which now include the solution that Jonathan (JonFo) has implemented from Cebotics.
Greg

Greg, I would now recommend you look at HomeSeer as a control solution. CEbotics is no longer being maintained (I know the author), and while it's an awesome and very reliable (running for over 10 years) piece of software, it's end-of life.

I personally plan to switch onto HomeSeer later this year. The HS2Pro is not cheap, but if you look for their 50% off sale every labor day or 4th of July, then it's not too bad.

I recommend you get the software this year, learn how to use it, then be really ready once your new home is done. It will also let you figure out whether you want Z-wave, Insteon, Zigbee or whatever for lights and stuff.

 

[greg2putt]

I think you will indeed need substantial power feeds into the equipment closet. There are several ways of doing this. The simplest is to have multiple 20A feeds and use two conditioners, one for all the low level gear and maybe the secondary amps, and one for the big amps & the sub.
Make sure both circuits are from the same source panel AND the same phase (that means alternating breaker positions in most panels).

Excellent advice. I think this is the approach I'll plan on with my architect until I speak with the builder and their electrical contractor.

The alternative is to create a power subsystem in that closet by bringing in a 30 to 45amp 240 feed to a wall-mounted isolation transformer in the gear closet. That isolation transformer then feeds two or three sub-circuits for your audio/video gear, and generally eliminates the need for things like the Panamax.
Products from Torus or Equi+Tech will do a great job. read this thread about the pros and cons of each and other power-related topics.
As a data point, I use an EquiTech 5KVA box and love the results.Great input!

And as always, please add a Surge Protection Device (SPD) to the service entry panel, as that's where it will do the most good not only for your gear, but for the rest of the homes electronics. Also, way cheaper than AV-oriented stuff which has huge markups.
Advice needed here. Can you send a link to the piece of hardware that you're referring to linked to a electrical supply house? I've just started working part-time at Lowe's to entertain myself during the day and can potentially pick up components at special discounts.

In your price range, please look at the Marantz 8801 pre-pro, it is a very nice upgraded variant of the Denon 4250 AVR. So solid processing and control, coupled with Marantz enhanced power and analog subsections. several of my AVP-owning buddies are trying this one out and giving it high praise sonically, and love the features. The specs of the Marantz are great and I'm very impressed with it being 4K Ultra HiDef ready already! I'm going to 'buy' in fall of 2014 at the earliest so this unit is right now the front runner. I'll be watching Anthem to see if they introduce a unit in my price range by then.

I'd stay away from mixing control (as in the Sherbourn) and pre-pro. You usually get serious compromises on both sides of the equation. Thank you!



While I love and recommend the Sunfires, I'd recommend a Sanders Sound systems ESL amp for your summits, as it will get the most out them. I'll monitor this but would hate to part with my Rowlands which are terrific. Definitely a game-time decision in 2015.


Yes, remember to get enough airflow through that room. I've found that my one ton AC unit dedicated to that room is kept busy (but not maxed) during the summer.Great advice. Is there a specific 'closet' AC unit I should specify here?

The other thing to plan for is access, it's very, very important to be able to get at the rear of the gear without too much impediment. I've helped several guys set up complex systems in closets or gear nooks that were not well planned and it's a bear.

[/QUOTE]
I'll take another look at my plan and may seek input here. We've just completed first draft floorplan.

 

[greg2putt]

Apologies... . still working on technique to reply with quotes to various sections of a prior response.

 

[greg2putt]

Thanks again Jonathan.

I'll spend a few hours at the HomeSeer website to see if it feels right for me. I'm definitely a 'DIYer' type, but not an Information Technology professional by training. I'm a 'retired' CPA who worked in Big Pharma for 30 years and spent most of my time as a 'master' of Excel models. I'm very comfortable with If/Then statements and so HomeSeer is a new 'opportunity' to expand my skill set!

Best

 

[JonFo]

Greg, I would now recommend you look at HomeSeer as a control solution. CEbotics is no longer being maintained (I know the author), and while it's an awesome and very reliable (running for over 10 years) piece of software, it's end-of life.

I personally plan to switch onto HomeSeer later this year. The HS2Pro is not cheap, but if you look for their 50% off sale every labor day or 4th of July, then it's not too bad.

I recommend you get the software this year, learn how to use it, then be really ready once your new home is done. It will also let you figure out whether you want Z-wave, Insteon, Zigbee or whatever for lights and stuff.

Heads-up to everyone: the 50% off sale on the HomeSeer software is this Memorial Day weekend (through the 31st). So you can save hundreds right now.

http://homeseer.com/support/newsletters/current-promo.htm

Remember: you need to put the promo codes in the appropriate field on the shopping cart form to actually get the discount. Use MDR50P to get the 50% off on the software. Other coupon codes apply to other items.

If you plan to purchase accessories like the Z-troller (the best Z-wave primary controller), or switches and other automation stuff, buy the software first as a single transaction. That gains you access to their 'GearHouse discount club' that will then save you an additional 5 to 10% on subsequent orders.

So the Z-troller, which is normally $150, can be had for a lot less by combining the discount coupon offered this weekend, and the additional discount from the GearHouse club membership.