Need Help Deciding (ESL9 / 11A / 13A)

[ttocs]

. . . . but seriously thinking of stacking 2 more 1100X (one each on top of the existing) BUT not sure if it would add any value? Thoughts?

Stacking 2 subs will mostly just give greater output with reduced strain to the original single subwoofer. Dual stacked subs can possibly also smooth out some bumps in the curve, but don't count on it as it's totally dependent upon EVERYTHING to do with the room and placement.

It's when using 3 stacked subs that more tuning is possible. Going higher means including the ceiling reflections as well as the floor. Lots of fun stuff to consider. I've tried these things and came away with just lining up a bunch of subs along the front wall as close to the floor and front wall as possible. This horizontal array is much easier to deal with as opposed to two tall stacks that are not smashed into corners. Horizontal allows for better seat to seat response without much effort, and removes some of the floor bounce to be expected with drivers being greater distance above the floor vs right at floor level.

The subwoofer type I really would like to have is In-Wall mounted. I'd love to take as much SBIR away as possible.

I haven't had any extra time to play for months, but am gearing up to having a fun Fall. So I had a setup that was very good until I moved everything to swap tv panels, and just haven't put it all back.

 

[ejspain]

Stacking 2 subs will mostly just give greater output with reduced strain to the original single subwoofer. Dual stacked subs can possibly also smooth out some bumps in the curve, but don't count on it as it's totally dependent upon EVERYTHING to do with the room and placement.

It's when using 3 stacked subs that more tuning is possible. Going higher means including the ceiling reflections as well as the floor. Lots of fun stuff to consider. I've tried these things and came away with just lining up a bunch of subs along the front wall as close to the floor and front wall as possible. This horizontal array is much easier to deal with as opposed to two tall stacks that are not smashed into corners. Horizontal allows for better seat to seat response without much effort, and removes some of the floor bounce to be expected with drivers being greater distance above the floor vs right at floor level.

The subwoofer type I really would like to have is In-Wall mounted. I'd love to take as much SBIR away as possible.

I haven't had any extra time to play for months, but am gearing up to having a fun Fall. So I had a setup that was very good until I moved everything to swap tv panels, and just haven't put it all back.

Makes sense. Thanks

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Makes sense. Thanks

EJ I have BF212s stacked on each other. In my case not much smoother fr, maybe a little addressing ceiling height modes. Power was no issue had too much before. But there is something about the height element. I know bass is omnidirectional but movies and explosions (ht only for me) sound much better with that height sub. If I turn it off it sounds lame again.

OP I'm in a 20x26x8 room. Currently 6 BF212s and 15As and the bass is so effortless and powerful. Bigger is better

 

[Nuri58]

Stacking the 1100 sounds a bit dangerous with their low weights. Mine dance around the floor, even with som thick double gluing stuff. Apart from that I'd think it would not add much. Perhaps a bud-kicker or two on the sofa would be a better investment?

 

[Narcosis]

My budget dictated ESL 9, and I've got them paired with an ML Descent sub which is corner loaded. The room is 18x25 with a 9 foot ceiling, and I am VERY pleased with the overall audio experience. In my view, sub is mandatory as the dual woofers in the ESL 9 need a bit of reinforcement. As in most things stat panel related, placement of the fronts is paramount.

Amplification is an old Bob Carver Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Series 2 5 channel, center channel is an ML Theater, surround are ML Fresco.

Old school ML and amplification, new school fronts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[ttocs]

Stacking the 1100 sounds a bit dangerous with their low weights. Mine dance around the floor, even with som thick double gluing stuff. Apart from that I'd think it would not add much. Perhaps a bud-kicker or two on the sofa would be a better investment?

Ahhhh, but remove the feet from the top sub and get some rubber tool drawer liner mat material from the home store. Cut the liner material so it's just a bit smaller than the top of the bottom sub with the bottom sub's driver facing frontwards, then place the top sub - also with the driver the same direction - and they will be mated for life. Over time they sort of "stick" together with stiction, not stickiness, and the top sub simply doesn't budge.

Like this:

 

[Robert D]

My budget dictated ESL 9, and I've got them paired with an ML Descent sub which is corner loaded. The room is 18x25 with a 9 foot ceiling, and I am VERY pleased with the overall audio experience. In my view, sub is mandatory as the dual woofers in the ESL 9 need a bit of reinforcement. As in most things stat panel related, placement of the fronts is paramount.

Amplification is an old Bob Carver Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Series 2 5 channel, center channel is an ML Theater, surround are ML Fresco.

Old school ML and amplification, new school fronts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'm guessing you had some old school fronts before this? What were they and how was the improvement?

 

[Robert D]

Ahhhh, but remove the feet from the top sub and get some rubber tool drawer liner mat material from the home store. Cut the liner material so it's just a bit smaller than the top of the bottom sub with the bottom sub's driver facing frontwards, then place the top sub - also with the driver the same direction - and they will be mated for life. Over time they sort of "stick" together with stiction, not stickiness, and the top sub simply doesn't budge.

Like this:
View attachment 24478

Nice tip!

 

[Robert D]

One of these and you'd be set.
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/tv42-ipal-new

 

[ejspain]

Stacking the 1100 sounds a bit dangerous with their low weights. Mine dance around the floor, even with som thick double gluing stuff. Apart from that I'd think it would not add much. Perhaps a bud-kicker or two on the sofa would be a better investment?

Tbh I really don't need to add anything. You know how crazy we sometimes think in this hobby.....ALWAYS trying to squeeze out that last microscopic "better". After ALOT of work, time, tears, and muscle relaxer, my room sounds pretty darn good with music and movies. Now I'm in therapy learning to just enjoy and stop thinking I need.....

 

[Nuri58]

I know the feeling just too well. Was thinking on upgrading to balanced force sub. Even my dealer told me to reconsider.... actually he came around to my home to calibrate and listen my new fronts + center. I think, meaning it did make a big change already, much bigger than any upgrade, so yes me too I am now just enjoying

 

[MisterB]

I have 11A's with two 1100x subs in a room that is a bit smaller than the OP's. It's an irregularly L-shaped room, 11.5' wide by 21' deep on the longest wall and about 15' deep on the shortest wall ending at a doorway that leads into a hallway that runs parallel to the back 6' of the room. While the 11A's by themselves put out plenty of bass for my room, the two 1100x's (one in each of the two front corners, behind the 11A's) help smooth out the bass response and add noticeable extra low-end extension.

As a couple previous posters mentioned, optimal position for the panels may not be optimal position for the bass. That was certainly my experience. I started with one 1100x that I used mainly for HT. Then I added the second 1100x and integrated both of them for 2-channel music. That made a significant improvement in overall sound quality.

 

[Leporello]

Now I'm in therapy learning to just enjoy

You may be in physical therapy, if you go ahead and stack those subs

 

[Leporello]

EJ I have BF212s stacked on each other. In my case not much smoother fr, maybe a little addressing ceiling height modes. Power was no issue had too much before. But there is something about the height element. I know bass is omnidirectional but movies and explosions (ht only for me) sound much better with that height sub. If I turn it off it sounds lame again.

OP I'm in a 20x26x8 room. Currently 6 BF212s and 15As and the bass is so effortless and powerful. Bigger is better

My opinions (and let he who has no opinions cast the first stone):

1. By stacking those monster subs you're losing the ability to smooth out the spatial sub-bass response. You're gaining maximum possible amplitude, since they add exactly in phase at all frequencies. But it's not a tradeoff I would make, having spent the money on two or more subs. If you are the only one who ever listens to it, I suppose it is a fair one. Of course turning off the upper one is going to change the sound, without doing anything else, because you're going 6dB down in the sub-bass.

2. If you're hearing height information, or any directional information, from your subs, you're probably crossing them over too high and/or setting your low pass slope too shallow. Are you using a high pass crossover or just letting them run full range? Are you running the 212's the way ARC sets them up? The 15A's should allow you to go way low with the crossovers, unless the in-room bass response of them placed for optimum soundstage, etc. is very sub-optimal, in which case I'd consider using a high pass x-over.

I let my CLS II's roll off naturally, which in my room is about 40hz. I have the Descent i sub in one corner, and try to eq. it around the panels the best I can, using a 24dB/octave slope. When I hear 32' organ pedals coming from the center, where the tall pipes would be located, I'm pretty sure I have it set up reasonably. Deep sounds from action movies (e.g. Dune) are fun, but a very low priority for me.

 

[ejspain]

My budget dictated ESL 9, and I've got them paired with an ML Descent sub which is corner loaded. The room is 18x25 with a 9 foot ceiling, and I am VERY pleased with the overall audio experience. In my view, sub is mandatory as the dual woofers in the ESL 9 need a bit of reinforcement. As in most things stat panel related, placement of the fronts is paramount.

Amplification is an old Bob Carver Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Series 2 5 channel, center channel is an ML Theater, surround are ML Fresco.

Old school ML and amplification, new school fronts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

a great story. No change necessary. Enjoy the tunes my friend.

 

[BigGuy]

Nice tip!

Off topic but the drawer/shelf liner is great for keeping stuff from banging around in trunks of vehicles.

 

[Midcoast Man]

The ESL 9 has a mid-bass quality that I found warmer and punchier than the 11A, but not a big step over my ESL low bass wise.
I have a Dynamo 400 for my original ESL’s. Now I’m thinking of a bigger sub like ML Dynamo 1100X or REL T9X. Trying to stay at $1500. Seems like ML offers more for the money. Any reason why the less feature rich REL should be considered? Something else?

 

[ejspain]

The ESL 9 has a mid-bass quality that I found warmer and punchier than the 11A, but not a big step over my ESL low bass wise.
I have a Dynamo 400 for my original ESL’s. Now I’m thinking of a bigger sub like ML Dynamo 1100X or REL T9X. Trying to stay at $1500. Seems like ML offers more for the money. Any reason why the less feature rich REL should be considered? Something else?

Never heard that comparison before but ok.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

My opinions (and let he who has no opinions cast the first stone):

1. By stacking those monster subs you're losing the ability to smooth out the spatial sub-bass response. You're gaining maximum possible amplitude, since they add exactly in phase at all frequencies. But it's not a tradeoff I would make, having spent the money on two or more subs. If you are the only one who ever listens to it, I suppose it is a fair one. Of course turning off the upper one is going to change the sound, without doing anything else, because you're going 6dB down in the sub-bass.

2. If you're hearing height information, or any directional information, from your subs, you're probably crossing them over too high and/or setting your low pass slope too shallow. Are you using a high pass crossover or just letting them run full range? Are you running the 212's the way ARC sets them up? The 15A's should allow you to go way low with the crossovers, unless the in-room bass response of them placed for optimum soundstage, etc. is very sub-optimal, in which case I'd consider using a high pass x-over.

I let my CLS II's roll off naturally, which in my room is about 40hz. I have the Descent i sub in one corner, and try to eq. it around the panels the best I can, using a 24dB/octave slope. When I hear 32' organ pedals coming from the center, where the tall pipes would be located, I'm pretty sure I have it set up reasonably. Deep sounds from action movies (e.g. Dune) are fun, but a very low priority for me.

1. I have subs in all 4 corners. I then stack more on top. So mute point as smoothing has already happened to near literal perfection without E

It has nothing to do with volume drop. The sound collapses. Given I dont think you have tried it, you may have to take my word.

2. Different height info. Try it and you'll understand. Action Movies like Dune are my only priority, so that may be a difference in what we like, sure sounds like your system rocks too though!

 

[perryz]

1. I have subs in all 4 corners. I then stack more on top. So mute point as smoothing has already happened to near literal perfection without E

It has nothing to do with volume drop. The sound collapses. Given I dont think you have tried it, you may have to take my word.

2. Different height info. Try it and you'll understand. Action Movies like Dune are my only priority, so that may be a difference in what we like, sure sounds like your system rocks too though!

I run 13a as main speakers and a single bf212.
I have copious amounts of very deep tuneful bass. I have the bass speaker smack bang in between the main speakers. The bass is seamless I can’t in my room see any benefit from more subs but????