Martin Logan 13A's and a subwoofer pairing question.

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Fidji99

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Does having subs sitting behind your sitting position have a benefit other than just getting more subs in the room, is the actual position behind you an important key? I'm interested.
I have one sub [1100] behind my sofa and I think it makes nice bass envelope around me. It is dialed 6dB lower than the rest of them. it has opposite phase as front subs and it smoothes the overall response.

It was actually outcome of REW sub simulation tool to place it there
 

Robert D

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I have one sub [1100] behind my sofa and I think it makes nice bass envelope around me. It is dialed 6dB lower than the rest of them. it has opposite phase as front subs and it smoothes the overall response.

It was actually outcome of REW sub simulation tool to place it there
REW seems to be a powerful tool.
 

ttocs

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1. Does having subs sitting behind your sitting position have a benefit other than just getting more subs in the room?

2. , is the actual position behind you an important key?

I'm interested.
1. Definitely!

2. Yes. There are two locations for subs at the front wall, so with the rear sub it creates a triangular layout. The main purpose for having the rear sub where it is, is to smooth the response from the subs at the front. And it's not just plopped down in an arbitrary location, it was moved around at the back of the room to find a spot where it could help in the best way.
 

Robert D

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They say low frequencies are more non directional, but there is still a directional component. Something to consider.
 

Fidji99

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This is my set-up [not 100% precise] but approx. Distance of Fronts is approx 2.4m, 1.2m from rear wall, speaker to MLP 2.8m and MLP from back wall 1.5m.
Subs randomly scattered, based on REW + bit of meaurement. Bass secton DRC'd fully by MSO results punched into Room Optimizer [1x1600, 2x1100, 1x800]

1655652680636.jpeg
 

iluvboxing

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ttocs good to hear from you! you assisted me greatly on the Emotiva forums! I will try them at large tonight, I will keep the two subs going into the let and right sub channel of my emotiva and have them set to dual mono. this way the LFE still gets sent to them (correct?).
Considering the frequency response capability of the 13As, it wouldn't make sense to set them to anything other than "Large" because the setting is not about the speakers' size; instead, it's about the loudspeakers' frequencies received and played back. Does that make sense?
 

ttocs

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They say low frequencies are more non directional, but there is still a directional component. Something to consider.
I agree. What I sense is the pressure from where the bass is strongest.

My setup has a "stereo" looking setup in front, plus the one in the back. Bass "all around", sort of, but a little stronger in front. As such, the bass works for all channels very well, including the ATMOS Tops.
 

iluvboxing

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1. Definitely!

2. Yes. There are two locations for subs at the front wall, so with the rear sub it creates a triangular layout. The main purpose for having the rear sub where it is, is to smooth the response from the subs at the front. And it's not just plopped down in an arbitrary location, it was moved around at the back of the room to find a spot where it could help in the best way.
Hey ttocs,

What has been your experience with the XMC-2 and running more than two subs? I ask because I am considering upgrading from the MC-700 to either the XMC-2, RMC-1L, or Arcam AV40/41. I like the AV40 because of the four assignable inputs that can be used for subs. Plus, I like that Dirac is built into the unit and one has the option to add Dirac Live Bass Control for multi-sub use cases. I'm a big fan of REL and plan to add three more subs (left, right, and center) to the HT/1205 I currently use.
 

ttocs

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Hey ttocs,

What has been your experience with the XMC-2 and running more than two subs? I ask because I am considering upgrading from the MC-700 to either the XMC-2, RMC-1L, or Arcam AV40/41. I like the AV40 because of the four assignable inputs that can be used for subs. Plus, I like that Dirac is built into the unit and one has the option to add Dirac Live Bass Control for multi-sub use cases. I'm a big fan of REL and plan to add three more subs (left, right, and center) to the HT/1205 I currently use.
Well, with 3 subwoofer outputs, and before I got my first miniDSP, I used all 3 setup as Dual Mono (Left/Right Sub Outputs), and Mono (Center Sub Output). I thought this worked pretty well, until I began using a miniDSP and found a huge benefit to having Dirac see all the subs as one. When Dirac corrected for each individual sub, when they all played the same signal together there were peaks and nulls created which were worse than if there was no correction at all.

If Emotiva can get Dirac Live Bass Control working (DLBC), this would be a big, big help in being able to use the multiple sub outputs in a better managed way. Each sub can be tuned to be the best for it, then all subs together - including any channel setup as Large, AND, including being able to workout the crossovers for all the Small channels. Win, Win, Win!

With all the subs I've got, I'll still need miniDSP when using DLBC.

edit: oops. Forgot to make clear that I now just use Left Sub Output for all the Mono stuff for Bass Management. And I use the Center Sub output just for LFE.
 

ttocs

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Considering the frequency response capability of the 13As, it wouldn't make sense to set them to anything other than "Large" because the setting is not about the speakers' size; instead, it's about the loudspeakers' frequencies received and played back. Does that make sense?
Yes, that makes sense.

It's not an easy - Just make them Small, or, Just make them Large. It's however it works best for the room and the listener's expectations.

With the controls on the speakers, Bass Control, and Mid Bass switch, they allow for some nifty tuning possibilities. I love the fact that the Bass Control is a shelf filter. When it's lowered, it doesn't "cut off" frequencies, it just lowers them down below a frequency threshold. So the woofers can still provide bass down to their minimum, but we can relieve them from some of the stress of making really low frequencies, which I use to great advantage in mixing a pair of subs for each 13A wired via speaker level connection.

Here is a graphic showing how the Bass Control works. Most of the affected frequencies are below 150Hz.
MartinLogan MasterpieceSeries Bass Control Response 2.jpg
 

Omuracada

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I have 7.4.4 setup currently.

For movies as Full Range [Large] and I also route Bass from Center to Fronts [gives very special sensation of very large center speaker]
For Stereo - I do Xover at 50Hz and play as 2.4 [this is room specific as I have deep null on combined stereo between 35-40Hz in MLP and is just annoying]
I apologize for my ignorance however when you say you route bass from center to fronts, what do you mean. Is this you wiring another sub and daisy chaining it to the center and then to the fronts?
 

Fidji99

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I apologize for my ignorance however when you say you route bass from center to fronts, what do you mean. Is this you wiring another sub and daisy chaining it to the center and then to the fronts?
sorry, this is me not being clear - this is an option in my AV processor, you can route bass signal to whatever speaker you choose, does not have to be just subwoofer. And I am using my 13A as the fronts so instead of doing crossover and sending everything below 80Hz to SW, I have chosen to send to L-R Fronts, same with Front Heights.
 

Northy

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O.P., congrats on the subs. Generally speaking, when you run a sub or in your case two, it makes sense to run your 13's as small. You want the woofers in 13A to not get too stressed trying to produce sub-80 HZ notes. Again, best is to test it out and hear the results.
 

Robert D

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I apologize for my ignorance however when you say you route bass from center to fronts, what do you mean. Is this you wiring another sub and daisy chaining it to the center and then to the fronts?
I think a lot of receivers and pre-amps have the ability to do that in settings. My Marantz has that.
O.P., congrats on the subs. Generally speaking, when you run a sub or in your case two, it makes sense to run your 13's as small. You want the woofers in 13A to not get too stressed trying to produce sub-80 HZ notes. Again, best is to test it out and hear the results.
On my Prodigy speakers, it sounds best set at 60 HZ. I tried other settings but they didn't sound as good to me. Audyssey set it at 40Hz, but the bass sounds weaker and thin then.
 

iluvboxing

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Well, with 3 subwoofer outputs, and before I got my first miniDSP, I used all 3 setup as Dual Mono (Left/Right Sub Outputs), and Mono (Center Sub Output). I thought this worked pretty well, until I began using a miniDSP and found a huge benefit to having Dirac see all the subs as one. When Dirac corrected for each individual sub, when they all played the same signal together there were peaks and nulls created which were worse than if there was no correction at all.

If Emotiva can get Dirac Live Bass Control working (DLBC), this would be a big, big help in being able to use the multiple sub outputs in a better managed way. Each sub can be tuned to be the best for it, then all subs together - including any channel setup as Large, AND, including being able to workout the crossovers for all the Small channels. Win, Win, Win!

With all the subs I've got, I'll still need miniDSP when using DLBC.

edit: oops. Forgot to make clear that I now just use Left Sub Output for all the Mono stuff for Bass Management. And I use the Center Sub output just for LFE.
ttocs,

Thank you for the response. DLBC is why I’m leaning toward the Arcam AV 40. On the flip side, it doesn’t have balanced analog inputs. I could probably live with that. Knowing that I’m going to use multiple REL subs influences my desire for DLBC.
 

iluvboxing

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O.P., congrats on the subs. Generally speaking, when you run a sub or in your case two, it makes sense to run your 13's as small. You want the woofers in 13A to not get too stressed trying to produce sub-80 HZ notes. Again, best is to test it out and hear the results.
According to who? John Hunter of REL disagrees.
 

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I think it is a huge waste to neuter a pair of esl 13As by rolling them off at 80hz. Personally, I'd run them down to 40hz or even lower and let the outboard subs handle just the infrabass below 35hz.
 

iluvboxing

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I think it is a huge waste to neuter a pair of esl 13As by rolling them off at 80hz. Personally, I'd run them down to 40hz or even lower and let the outboard subs handle just the infrabass below 35hz.
Exactly, Brazillnut! What's the point of spending $16,499.98/pair for speakers "designed" to run full range and not run them full range? Not only is it a waste, but it's also pure nonsense.
 
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Robert D

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Exactly, Brazillnut! What's the point of spending $16,499.98/pair for speakers "designed" to run full range and not run them full range. Not only is it a waste, but it's also pure nonsense.
I think once you listen to the setup you'll know what to do. In my case it actually sounds better to cut off the Prodigies at 60 HZ. It's counterintuitive for sure. They are rated down to 28 HZ too. Maybe the woofers are worn out?
 
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