McCain and Obama

[DrJRapp]

First debate - I think these things are seldom won but are more about overall impressions.

Obama looking presidential, McCain looking tired.

Kevin

Maybe McCain looked tired because he was up all night in conference with the House Republicans over the bailout issue.

It's interesting how perspective changes as one ages... to me McCain seemed comfortable in his own skin and Obama seemed coached like he was a movie actor playing a role.

I'm actually very impressed that McCain did so well. Several days ago when the debate seemed to be in jeopardy of being delayed, Obama, in his typical arrogant manner, had accused McCain of being "afraid" to debate him. The man I saw on stage was in complete command of the show...not afraid of anything. If anyone appeared afraid it was Obama who had more than a few nervous and jerky moments appearing to look around for cue cards on what to say.

 

[kwr]

Maybe McCain looked tired because he was up all night in conference with the House Republicans over the bailout issue.

Tired as in looking back, still not learning the lessons of history and making the assumption that age confers wisdom. He "doesn't seem to understand" to coin a phrase.

Kevin

 

[DrJRapp]

He "doesn't seem to understand"
Kevin

It was predicted that the debate would soon be characterized by it's sound bites and u-tube clips.... let me add another appropriate sound bite....


If it talks like a swan and walks like a duck is it a swan or is it a duck?

 

[Len44]

Several days ago when the debate seemed to be in jeopardy of being delayed, Obama, in his typical arrogant manner, had accused McCain of being "afraid" to debate him.

Actually, I was unaware of that statement...and have been unable to find it. Do you have an actual quote of Barrack Obama saying that McCain was "afraid" to debate him?

Thanks!

 

[kwr]

It was predicted that the debate would soon be characterized by it's sound bites and u-tube clips.... let me add another appropriate sound bite....


If it talks like a swan and walks like a duck is it a swan or is it a duck?

Hi Jerry,

Yeh - you are absolutely right and that is what I was getting at when I said that these debates are about impressions rather than facts - both candidates seem to have made errors.



Kevin

 

[DrJRapp]

Hi Jerry,

both candidates seem to have made errors.
Kevin

I guess that just proves that they are both human...even though one of them thinks he is god.

 

[Len44]

I guess that just proves that they are both human...even though one of them thinks he is god.

Yeah, it seems that McCain -- like Bush -- has the ability to be wrong confidently...

 

[Rich]

I guess that just proves that they are both human...even though one of them thinks he is god.

Really? Geez, I knew McCain was senile, and suffers from PTSD, but I didn't know he was hallucinatory. Believes he is god? Wow.

 

[TomDac]

Jack Cafferty on Sara Palin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8__aXxXPVc

 

[Gordon Gray]

Kudos to all of you!

This is my second foray into this thread.

Upfront, I'm a Barack fan but it doesn't matter since I live in Wyoming.

Let me start by saying that if I am elected President, I will ....

On a more serious note, I really am impressed by the civility that all the members have shown regarding what is admittedly, a potentially toxic topic, read people slamming each other.

I did watch the debate and also a video to make sure I understood what both candidates were saying.

My general observations:

1) What a pleasure to have two articulate, intelligent candidates vying for this office. I always cringed when W said something without a teleprompter, waiting for that inevitable grammar error or awkward, non-sensical phrase.

2) Jim did a great job as moderator.

3) Pretty classic, standard red / blue positions for the most part.

4) Absent the content, for me the body language said it all. And I can't quite believe that one candidate having insufficient rest was the cause. JM never made eye contact and never tried to "engage" BO in a meaningful manner. It, to me, was very much like the W, complete with the stoic arrogance and "don't question my positions attitude. I don't care what you think, I know better."

I was struck by the fact that BO openly agreed with JM on several issues. To me, this indicated humility and grace while attempting to create an environment of commonality, as well as respectful discourse, and not an us versus them mentality.

JM never got it but I strongly suspect he will have a different demeanor in the next debate. I think all of us can agree that we are very tired of having someone with a "king" mentality, supported and encouraged by the king's staff, in the White House.

Again, thank you all for the impassioned but respectful discussion and all the opinions / information that has been provided to date.

GG

 

[DrJRapp]

Really? Geez, I knew McCain was senile, and suffers from PTSD, but I didn't know he was hallucinatory. Believes he is god? Wow.

No, it's Obama who thinks he is god and talks down to everone. When this all started I was independent and uncommitted, I even threw some financial support towards Obama during the primaries before I figgured out how shallow the man really is. As time has progressed,he has proven over and over that he will say anything and act any way that will bring him votes. The so call "humility" that Gordon talks of is entirely an act. The real BO is a snob and a know it all. What was on stage Friday night was a fabrication. Familiarity, when unwelcomed is a sign of manipulation, not humility. It would have been much more appropriate for him to adress McCain as Senator than by his first name.

It is very hard to trust someone who changes his positions, his word and his demenaor as often as he changes underwear.

I have many friends in positions with other governments throughout the world. When BO when on his "Victory Tour" they were all scratching they heads asking...what is that act all about. Most Government leaders throught the world are routing for Obama because they know he is weak, a camellion and and a placator, this will allow them to "get their way" more readily. Yes, Obama knows how to talk tough when he thinks it's too his advantage, but he doesn't know how to "be tough" when it matters. It's more important for him to be popular. I can't see us coming out ahead in any negotiation directed by a placator.

I beieve that regardless of which one wins we are in for a boatload of trouble because I don't think either will garner the cooperation of Congress. Each has their detractors: McCain because he has been too independent for so long that he has wound up in opposition to just about everone at one time or another, and Obama is too much of a lightweight to earn the respect of the elder statesmen especially the right.

Unfortunatly, many of you, as many of the general population hate our current President and are inappropriately transferring that hatred to McCain. Unfortunatly, that gives the man two strikes before ge even steps up to the plate...which I believe is unfair...but who says life is fair...right!

To use a worn out phrase...you just don't understand

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Jerry,

I think we all will have to wait to see who is acting and who is not. I've been around long enough to know that many things said during a campaign are simply said to solidify support for the appropriate crowd. And that things change dramatically once that person takes office and is faced with reality.

To cite some examples, W said that this country should stay out of nation building, we shouldn't be involved in Middle East negotiations, and that he would support renewal of the assault rifle ban.

I'm not going to speculate as to the change of heart and certainly don't mean to imply that W is the only president guilty of "changing his mind". Many others have done it before and others will do it again.

Regarding this Country's attitude towards the W, I believe it is well founded given what has occurred, on his watch, over the last eight years. He is clearly one of the worst presidents, if not the worst, that this country has ever had. And transferrence of attitudes towards a candidate of the same party is not uncommon and is, in fact, human nature. Whether it's fair or not, and affects the election results, remains to be seen.

Chow.

GG

 

[twich54]

Unfortunatly, many of you, as many of the general population hate our current President and are inappropriately transferring that hatred to McCain.

Jerry, as a life long Registered Republican, I agree with your statement above.

I feel Bush has redifined the term "Lame Duck", for he has acted as such for most of his second term.

I think it's fairly safe to say that most of us that are self employed are Republican for some pretty obvious reasons, yet as I converse with many of my fellow self employed friends and fellow business associates there is more resentment for the Republican party than I can remember.

 

[User211]

Hm... Bush... here's a joke from an English TV presenter: "Bush? In our country, he wouldn't be allowed to hold a pair of scissors!".

Please no one get offended by that, it IS a joke, but you see where he is coming from!

Having said that, I am not sure we fair much better, really. Mr Brown is enjoying the worst popularity ratings for many tens of years!

 

[Rich]

No, it's Obama who thinks he is god and talks down to everone.

Jerry, the fact that someone is highly intelligent and somewhat aloof in presentation does not in and of itself imply that they have a "god" complex. I think you are simply slinging some rhetoric here.

The real BO is a snob and a know it all.

And you know this because . . . ?

What was on stage Friday night was a fabrication. Familiarity, when unwelcomed is a sign of manipulation, not humility. It would have been much more appropriate for him to adress McCain as Senator than by his first name.

What you see in every debate is pretty much a fabrication. You don't think these things are as staged as possible by both candidates? You don't think the fact that McCain never once looked Obama in the eye during this debate was a manipulation planned in advance by the McCain campaign? I would say that is very naive. McCain was dismissive, rude, and condescending toward Obama in this debate and I think it was entirely planned by his campaign to achieve a certain effect.

It is very hard to trust someone who changes his positions, his word and his demenaor as often as he changes underwear.

Do you remember McCain's stances on issues when he ran against Bush in 2000? Have you compared them to his current campaign? He went from castigating the religious right to pandering to them. He went from maverick to party faithful. He has flip-flopped in some form or fashion on just about every major issue.

Now some of this is just election politics. Positions one might take as a Senator will vary from the positions they might want to take when running for president. And then they will have to take slightly different positions when trying to win a primary (appealing to their party base) than they do in the general election (appealing to a wider, more centrist group). All politicians do this in some form or fashion, and I daresay McCain has done a much bigger chameleon act than Obama has. So who does that leave for you to vote?

Most Government leaders throught the world are routing for Obama because they know he is weak, a camellion and and a placator, this will allow them to "get their way" more readily.

No. I think most of them are routing for Obama because he is intelligent, rational, and believes in diplomacy and compromise, rather than bullying and imperialism. He understands that we are not the rulers of the world and that we have to work with other nations instead of treating them like our red-headed stepchildren.

Unfortunatly, many of you, as many of the general population hate our current President and are inappropriately transferring that hatred to McCain.

This is true, though I don't believe it is inappropriate in this case. And it is not just because McCain is in the same party as Bush. It is because for the last eight years McCain has completely kowtowed to Bush and supported his policies at every turn. He himself boasted of this and of voting with Bush over 90% of the time. Further, he appears to be just as obstinate and unintelligent as Bush. So why shouldn't our disdain for Bush be transferred over to someone who is apparently in complete lockstep with him?

It seems clear that a McCain presidency is going to be a whole lot closer to Bush's administration than an Obama presidency would. The very definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Why would we want to risk any further damage to our country and our reputation by taking a chance that maybe McCain is just a little better than Bush, even though he fully supports all of Bush's policies?

By the way, I believe I understand a lot more than you or McCain give me credit for.

 

[VanDaRo]

Well put, Rich.

For those of you still planning to vote for JM, you should really consider Rich's last paragraphs. This race is getting screwier and screwier by the minute. Many pages back in this thread, I called Palin a mistake, a joke, a lightweight and a disaster for the McCain campaign.

I stand by those comments. She is all the above and much, much, worse. It would be an unmitigated disaster for that woman to represent the United States to the rest of the world in the event of an untimely McCain death.

~VDR

 

[DrJRapp]

This is true, though I don't believe it is inappropriate in this case. And it is not just because McCain is in the same party as Bush. It is because for the last eight years McCain has completely kowtowed to Bush and supported his policies at every turn. He himself boasted of this and of voting with Bush over 90% of the time.

and earlier you say...

Positions one would take as a Senator might not be the same as they would take while running for President. Is it also possible that positions one might take as a Senator might not be the same as positions they would take AS the President? I say most likely YES. I guess from your perspective when Obama does this he is being intellegent but when McCain does this he is being "just like Bush".

You may convince yourself that McCain is a Bush clone (and in lockstep as you quote) by saying it over and over, but that's your reality, not everone else's. My reality is that splitting from support of the President 10% of the time, when that President is your own party, especially in wartime, is HUGE. I'd be interested to know how often BO officially split from party lines, although I'm not sure one could tell much from his record since it is my understanding that he didn't show up for work all that often, and when he did he supported "present" more often than anything. As you can probably tell by now, I have disdaine for those who are all about talk and little action.

Yes, I agree, you probably do understand MUCH more than I give you credit for, but I'm only willing to give you credit for what understanding shown here that is readily apparent to be the result of clear thinking and not twisted by hatred . I trust my own ears. The definition of insanity is expecting different results from the same behavior...Per Albert Einstein.

 

[Rich]

You may convince yourself that McCain is a Bush clone (and in lockstep as you quote) by saying it over and over, but that's your reality, not everone else's.

Apparently, I'm not alone. Even some conservatives are getting sick and tired of the Bush administration's stamp on the McCain campaign:

The New York Times conservative columnist Bill Kristol argued in his column on Monday that McCain must "liberate his running mate from the former Bush aides brought in to handle her -- aides who seem to have succeeded in importing to the Palin campaign the trademark defensive crouch of the Bush White House.

But perhaps you would prefer to hear it in McCain's own words. Just check out this short video clip.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc. . . .

 

[ScottGardner]

Rich,

I don't usually follow politics but I followed the links you gave above and I was floored.

She is a looker but sheesh I can't believe I read this:

The adviser said preparing her for the debate was "really hard" because the Alaska governor was learning about issues she had never dealt with before -- including those regarding North Korea and other hot spots around the globe.

I wonder what else will be "really hard" for her and how she will react to it.

 

[VanDaRo]

Forcast: Stormy weather

Concerning the upcoming VP debate on Thursday: I predict at least two or more of the following will occur.....

-- Bloodbath for Palin, major damage to the McCain campaign.

-- Biden will come off looking like a mean old man who terrorizes simple hockey moms. Public reaction unknown.

-- She will emerge beaten, but not worse for the wear because the bar has been set so low for her. Moderate damage to McCain campaign.

-- McCain or Palin will come up with a reason why she cannot attend (official business, family emergency, etc...). Media sees through it...Damage.

-- Palin will recuse herself from the ticket in a way that JMac will not look reckless for having chosen her in the first place. Media sees through it...Damage.

-- She will wear her hair down so that it hides the earpiece by which she is fed answers and talking points. The High Definition cameras will see it and her last shred of credibility will be gone. Major damage.

From my perspective, there really is no up-side to letting Palin continue, much less debate this week. Booting her from the ticket is problematic as well. JMac really should have followed his heart and gone with a seasoned politician like Ridge or Lieberman. He would not be in the poor shape that he is today if he had.

~VDR