I'm so sick and tired of product reviews.

[holmancv]

I am close to replacing or upgrading (I guess the difference is if you spend any money or not) my main speakers for my home theatre. My budget has influenced my decisions for most of the choices I have made. (While a divorce/bad motorcycle accident/job loss and bankruptcy three years ago means I don't purchase anything on the time plan.)

Currently, I am running seven Outlaw 200W Monoblocks to drive my speakers, one for each speaker. (These little gems have no problem with a four ohm load.) My next purchase is the Outlaw 990 pre/pro while in the meantime I'm using my "old" Denon 2410 avr to control the M2200s.

My main speakers are Mosaics, my center is a Vignette. My left/right are Definitive Technology BP7004, my rear speakers are Definitive Technology BP-2s and my subwoofer is a Definitive Technology SuperCube.

What I want to do is move everything one step to the rear, the Mosaics become my side speakers while my 7004's become my rear speakers. Taking the place of the Mosaics are the ML Vistas (I think) I have listened to the same pair of Vistas at the dealer several times and I swear on a stack of Twinkies that they sound just a little different each time. One time they were totally flat, another I would have sworn that my Mosaics sounded just a little better and another time I thought the angels were singing to me.

They have been sufficiently broken in and are connected properly. One clerk said the Vista and Vantage were identical with the exception being the Vantage's powered low-freq driver another clerk said that was not the case. While this was going on Portland (OR) got a new Magnapan dealer.

The presentation was so poor I swore the guy worked for Martin Logan. They were covered with dust from the remodel and the placement was suspect at best. (The critics are more at odds over the Maggies than they are over the Vistas.)

One writer stating the need for a sub while another review says just the contrary. I know the answer to the question is to bring each one home and give them a listen in my own situation. That's not as easy as it sounds.

My accident really messed me up and I'm living on a disability pension, lugging speakers around just is not something I can do and remain sane My original gripe is with the inconsistancy of the reviewers.

On the Outlaw user's board there is a guy called, "GONK" who provides the best reviews I have ever read. He's clear consise and has no financial pressures to favor one piece of equipment over another. I keep telling that he SHOULD quit his day-job and write equipment reviews!

Thanks for allowing me to vent my friends. I'm just wondering if I can swing the Vistas it's only another month before I could afford the Vantages but I have ample bass so is it worth it. My dealer does not have any Summits in the store but I would sure like to hear why they cost twice as much as the Vantage. Any thoughts? Take care all ...

 

[Charliemike]

I am close to replacing or upgrading (I guess the difference is if you spend any money or not) my main speakers for my home theatre. My budget has influenced my decisions for most of the choices I have made. (While a divorce/bad motorcycle accident/job loss and bankruptcy three years ago means I don't purchase anything on the time plan.) Currently, I am running seven Outlaw 200W Monoblocks to drive my speakers, one for each speaker. (These little gems have no problem with a four ohm load.) My next purchase is the Outlaw 990 pre/pro while in the meantime I'm using my "old" Denon 2410 avr to control the M2200s. My main speakers are Mosaics, my center is a Vignette. My left/right are Definitive Technology BP7004, my rear speakers are Definitive Technology BP-2s and my subwoofer is a Definitive Technology SuperCube. What I want to do is move everything one step to the rear, the Mosaics become my side speakers while my 7004's become my rear speakers. Taking the place of the Mosaics are the ML Vistas (I think) I have listened to the same pair of Vistas at the dealer several times and I swear on a stack of Twinkies that they sound just a little different each time. One time they were totally flat, another I would have sworn that my Mosaics sounded just a little better and another time I thought the angels were singing to me. They have been sufficiently broken in and are connected properly. One clerk said the Vista and Vantage were identical with the exception being the Vantage's powered low-freq driver another clerk said that was not the case. While this was going on Portland (OR) got a new Magnapan dealer. The presentation was so poor I swore the guy worked for Martin Logan. They were covered with dust from the remodel and the placement was suspect at best. (The critics are more at odds over the Maggies than they are over the Vistas.) One writer stating the need for a sub while another review says just the contrary. I know the answer to the question is to bring each one home and give them a listen in my own situation. That's not as easy as it sounds. My accident really messed me up and I'm living on a disability pension, lugging speakers around just is not something I can do and remain sane My original gripe is with the inconsistancy of the reviewers. On the Outlaw user's board there is a guy called, ""GONK who provides the best reviews I have ever read. He's clear consise and has no financial pressures to favor one piece of equipment over another. I keep telling that he SHOULD quit his day-job and write equipment reviews! Thanks for allowing me to vent my friends. I'm just wondering if I can swing the Vistas it's only another month before I could afford the Vantages but I have ample bass so is it worth it. My dealer does not have any Summits in the store but I would sure like to hear why they cost twice as much as the Vantage. Any thoughts? Take care all ...

I've asked Gonk for advice many times. For some reason, I thought he actually worked for Outlaw. I might have been mistaken.

Before I bought my Rotel 3ch amp I had thought about 2200 monoblocks from Outlaw. I have heard great things about them and the 990 pre-pro.

I'm thrilled to hear that they are doing well in your setup.

Do you have a friend that could help you with the lugging around of speakers? I know I'd help out my good buddy that lives near me if it meant some listening bliss

If not, perhaps the dealer would be willing to bring them to you if you're looking at Vistas or better.

Reviews are not only subjective but they also seem to often have agendas. Not a good combination!

 

[ralflar]

Holmancv, looks like life has been treating you roughly recently. My best wishes for you to get back on your feet, in more than just the literal sense. Good music won't harm!

As for Vistas vs Vantages: same size X-stat panel, very close x-over frequencies. Everything I have read and heard says that they are the same panels. Vantages have powered woofers going down to 34Hz. Those in the Vistas are passive and go down to 43Hz.

I upgraded from Aeon-i (the model which the Vistas replaced) to Vantages end of last year. My reason for doing so was the X-stat panel. I had no complaints about the bass of the Aeon-i which were augmented by a Dynamo sub which was set to the lowest (30Hz) x-over frequency. That was a very synergistic setup (30Hz is almost spot on to the -3dB point relative to 43Hz) which would work with the Vistas, too. The X-stat panel, on the other hand, is something special.

Although I own Vantages now I still believe that Vistas represent the better value. Paired with a decent sub or two they will perform as well or better than Vantages without sub and external x-over.

Regarding Maggies, I like them very much. The reasons why I have Logans instead of Maggies are not related to sound quality. I remember from earlier posts that twich54 had Maggie 3.6s in the past, and liked them, but values his Vantages higher. (Dave, I apologize if my memory failed me here.)

I think that Logans are easier to integrate with subs than Maggies, and that Logans will perform better in HT applications. I can offer absolutely no facts to back this up, this is nothing more than an opinion.

If you can swing the Vistas, go get them. A Dynamo is terrific value for $500 - $600, for music and HT; if you buy it from Tweeter, you have one year to decide to buy a better sub! (As in a 1.5x purchase price better.) Tweeter charge $65 for (white glove) home delivery where I live.

Regarding the Gonk, I have been reading many of his posts as well as his reviews when I was looking for amps myself, back in September. My impression back then was that he knew his Outlaw stuff well, but not much gear outside of that frame of reference.

As for any review, you know that you have to take them with a salt mine, don't you? The amateurs are often much worse than the "professionals" because many just parrot what they have read in other reviews, as in: These guys could hear great improvements. My ears and kit are no worse then theirs. Therefore, there MUST be great improvements...

 

[risabet]

Paragraphs please!

 

[benleeys]

I have used Maggies before. You have to play them loud before they really sing, and when they do, it's heaven. Playing them softly is another story. On the other hand, stats like ML and Quad sound heavenly even when played very softly. All the details emerge beautifully. My 2c's worth.

 

[holmancv]

Risabet: My spellchecker will sometimes hang-up when I Tab over or break a line entirely for a paragraph break. It's a nuisance and does give the reader pause. " ... do I really want to read this morass?" Personal attacks aside do you have any comments on the thread? I would like to hear them.

 

[holmancv]

Ralflar: Gonk's writing and knowledge base is so far beyond mine that I couldn't tell. He shows up all over the place but you are correct, his home base (I think) is Outlaw Audio. I actually asked Steve at Outlaw if Gonk was an employee. Steve says no. I think he's just a particularly nice guy who takes the time to respond to a legitimate question. BTW, thank you for the informed response to my original gripe!

 

[ralflar]

Cheers, mate.

Regarding your spel chekcer, the one in Thunderbird works just fine. It has no problems with pear

grafs, either.

 

[Charliemike]

Paragraphs please!

Grammer Nazi!

Yes, I know I spelled "grammar" incorrectly

 

[Gothover]

I have to say there is a fine line to try and convey an opinion about product honestly, while at the same time not discredit it.

As a reviewer/writer, my job is to find the good in a product, because most magazines wont post anything negative. As a reader your job is to find the meaning in the review. A few things to look for in a product review that can unveil a coverup is lots of Jabber about specs and features, rather than actual performance. Another thing to look for is key words like: (constricted, and forward). Also be keen to descriptions that have no measureable value. If the reviewer really feels the product is worthy, he/she will have no problem filling multiple pages with praise.

Review dictionary:

Bang for the buck...........................Quality comes with a price tag.

Forward........................................Harsh junk.

Constricted...................................Distorted junk.

Laid back......................................Flat.

In the right environment..................didn't sound good in my house.

Entry level.....................................same as bang for the buck.

Aura.............................................Use your imagination.


I guess its a good thing that I don't write for audio magazines. :rocker:

 

[risabet]

Risabet: My spellchecker will sometimes hang-up when I Tab over or break a line entirely for a paragraph break. It's a nuisance and does give the reader pause. " ... do I really want to read this morass?" Personal attacks aside do you have any comments on the thread? I would like to hear them.

No personal attack implied, paragraphs simply aid in reading and comprehension, especially on a computer screen.

 

[TomDac]

Hope you don't mind, but I put paragraph breaks in there for ya!

I'm thinking about the Outlaw monoblocks for my center and surrounds. They're certainly priced right and so small. I'll have to take a look at the Outlaw forums and read "Gonk's" reviews.

Most of the reviews I read could be written by the same person. They contain all the same audiophile "buzzwords" and I usually read the first paragraph and then jump down to the "Conclusion" area.

 

[holmancv]

Gothover, I enjoyed your post. It must be difficult to be honest about some of these products, especially those who pay a lot of money for advertising. (Bose?) I wrote this after spending a rather exacerbating day trying to compare speakers for an upcoming upgrade. There are folks on this forum who think nothing of dropping ten-grand for a pair of Summits, Vistas will be "no lunches" for the next six months. Peace

 

[Joey_V]

Gothover, I enjoyed your post. It must be difficult to be honest about some of these products, especially those who pay a lot of money for advertising. (Bose?) I wrote this after spending a rather exacerbating day trying to compare speakers for an upcoming upgrade. There are folks on this forum who think nothing of dropping ten-grand for a pair of Summits, Vistas will be "no lunches" for the next six months. Peace

Dude....

Summits were Ramen for a whole semester (and sandwiches too)... but somehow I survived it!

 

[lugano]

There are folks on this forum who think nothing of dropping ten-grand for a pair of Summits, Vistas will be "no lunches" for the next six months. Peace

Be happy to live where you live, over here in Europe the summits are $19'000...

 

[aerius007]

Dude....

Summits were Ramen for a whole semester (and sandwiches too)... but somehow I survived it!

I should buy the Summits TODAY, I really need to get rid of 20-30lbs. I would discuss this further but I am going to eat some fried cheese now.

 

[Charliemike]

I should buy the Summits TODAY, I really need to get rid of 20-30lbs. I would discuss this further but I am going to eat some fried cheese now.

You'd lose weight and have a stroke from the salt!