Illusion owners...where do you cross over?

[TiBoneFramer]

I cross my illusion over at 80hz. Bass knob at 0, mid bass switch +2. I listen at reference sitting just 2m away from the speaker. Somehow 2 of my woofers are damaged and crate audible distortion when in motion. In ARC I had them rolled off after 60hz And was told there is a built in limiter in the speaker. So what gives?

Illusion owners what is your set up?
All others feel free to comment what Center you use and how it works for you.

For the record has a Focus but upgraded to this to help ease the burden and get better sound, which I thought I was doing but this is not inspiring. What would I do if I had a LARGE theater and bumped the low bass up +3 and had a REL sub so was running full range? Blow drivers every half hour?

 

[codesx100]

I cross my illusion over at 80hz. Bass knob at 0, mid bass switch +2. I listen at reference sitting just 2m away from the speaker. Somehow 2 of my woofers are damaged and crate audible distortion when in motion. In ARC I had them rolled off after 60hz And was told there is a built in limiter in the speaker. So what gives?

Illusion owners what is your set up?
All others feel free to comment what Center you use and how it works for you.

For the record has a Focus but upgraded to this to help ease the burden and get better sound, which I thought I was doing but this is not inspiring. What would I do if I had a LARGE theater and bumped the low bass up +3 and had a REL sub so was running full range? Blow drivers every half hour?

Do you know if anything else is damaged? I would get it looked at and fixed if you can. I dont think there is any limiter in the speaker, you may have some bad electronics as well along with the woofers. I've sadly not had the chance to listen to the illusion but others have told me its not worth the extra $$$ over the focus, some said they rather have 2 focuses (LOL!). Either way I think the best thing is to get the speaker fixed first, turn of ARC on it and get to a point where you know it works.

I have the focus and i run it crossed over at 60Hz.

 

[Robert D]

Contact Ron at ML, he can help you.

I use a Focus and have it crossed over at 80 HZ if I remember right. Audyssey set it at 40 or 60, but I raised it up on my own.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Do you know if anything else is damaged? I would get it looked at and fixed if you can. I dont think there is any limiter in the speaker, you may have some bad electronics as well along with the woofers. I've sadly not had the chance to listen to the illusion but others have told me its not worth the extra $$$ over the focus, some said they rather have 2 focuses (LOL!). Either way I think the best thing is to get the speaker fixed first, turn of ARC on it and get to a point where you know it works.

I have the focus and i run it crossed over at 60Hz.

Do I know? Not for certain, but it doesn't sound like it. Plus, if it is, its still under warranty and ML makes swapping part assemblies easy, so I'm not too concerned. Looked at is a pain and why take it all apart if nothing is wrong. ML is going to send me 2 new woofers and we will see what, if anything, happens next.

ML told me there is a limiter built in, so only going on their word. I do rest easy if something else is wrong as ML has always totally taken care of me.

I'll say this after owning all electrostatic current production Center channels - Focus, is by far, the sweet spot. Dollar for dollar is sounds amazing. However, the sweetEST spot is the Illusion. No comparison. I'd never go back to a Focus and would buy and Illusion right now if I had to. But I do big high end theater.

Funny story...in my previous Focus I blew both woofers. I have no idea how you run a 60hz xo, I assume by not listening beyond -10.

(I killed my Focus by boosting bass 12db to all channels when I only wanted to turn the sub up. I did it for long enough it eventually gave out. Yes I am smarter now, yes it was a stupid mistake. No it was not plainly evident that this was what I was doing.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Contact Ron at ML, he can help you.

I use a Focus and have it crossed over at 80 HZ if I remember right. Audyssey set it at 40 or 60, but I raised it up on my own.

Already did. Ron is the best, just wish I could get the guy on the phone.

 

[JonFo]

My SL3XC has six woofers that can go down to 40Hz flat, I measured the line array as flat to below that, even at decent volumes (but not max). I chose to run the XO to it at 80Hz, 24dB/Octave Linkwitz-Riley, as the rest of my low-end is very capable.

Remember, a XO is not a brick wall, so depending on slopes, your center might still be pushing a fair amount of output at 40Hz. I know when playing Steven Wilson solo material, he heavily uses the center and he does not limit or filter it in any way, and even with a 80Hz XO, the woofers in that line array are visibly moving. Standing a few feet from it, one can feel the mid-bass from it quite strongly. A single or even dual 7" woofer setup would be struggling.

some said they rather have 2 focuses (LOL!).

If stuck having to go commercial, I'd get three and stack them with a slight angle on the upper and lower units to increase vertical coverage. But frankly, that's getting close in cost to just buying one more ESL matching L/R models and sticking that behind the screen with a ton of absorption behind it.

The true killer HT setup from ML is three XW40 Statement in-wall Line Arrays as the L/C/R speakers.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

My SL3XC has six woofers that can go down to 40Hz flat, I measured the line array as flat to below that, even at decent volumes (but not max). I chose to run the XO to it at 80Hz, 24dB/Octave Linkwitz-Riley, as the rest of my low-end is very capable.

Remember, a XO is not a brick wall, so depending on slopes, your center might still be pushing a fair amount of output at 40Hz. I know when playing Steven Wilson solo material, he heavily uses the center and he does not limit or filter it in any way, and even with a 80Hz XO, the woofers in that line array are visibly moving. Standing a few feet from it, one can feel the mid-bass from it quite strongly. A single or even dual 7" woofer setup would be struggling.



If stuck having to go commercial, I'd get three and stack them with a slight angle on the upper and lower units to increase vertical coverage. But frankly, that's getting close in cost to just buying one more ESL matching L/R models and sticking that behind the screen with a ton of absorption behind it.

The true killer HT setup from ML is three XW40 Statement in-wall Line Arrays as the L/C/R speakers.

In the theater I am building I am going to do a pair of 15as for LR and a pair of 15As flanking the screen (but inset from LR) as my center. Then 15As for surrounds and rears. Yes I like electrostatics no the statement did not impress me.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

My SL3XC has six woofers that can go down to 40Hz flat, I measured the line array as flat to below that, even at decent volumes (but not max). I chose to run the XO to it at 80Hz, 24dB/Octave Linkwitz-Riley, as the rest of my low-end is very capable.

Remember, a XO is not a brick wall, so depending on slopes, your center might still be pushing a fair amount of output at 40Hz. I know when playing Steven Wilson solo material, he heavily uses the center and he does not limit or filter it in any way, and even with a 80Hz XO, the woofers in that line array are visibly moving. Standing a few feet from it, one can feel the mid-bass from it quite strongly. A single or even dual 7" woofer setup would be struggling.



If stuck having to go commercial, I'd get three and stack them with a slight angle on the upper and lower units to increase vertical coverage. But frankly, that's getting close in cost to just buying one more ESL matching L/R models and sticking that behind the screen with a ton of absorption behind it.

The true killer HT setup from ML is three XW40 Statement in-wall Line Arrays as the L/C/R speakers.

And I'd still not stack the focus. The panel just isnt wide enough to cover enough ground vs 34C

 

[JonFo]

In the theater I am building I am going to do a pair of 15as for LR and a pair of 15As flanking the screen (but inset from LR) as my center. Then 15As for surrounds and rears. Yes I like electrostatics no the statement did not impress me.

That will be a sweet setup, and I hope the construction integrates all the necessary acoustic treatments, as that much ESL surface area will require a good bit of absorption, lest the room rings like a bell.

Interesting that the Statement did not impress, I've yet to hear them, but the very similar Wisdom Audio in-wall line arrays blow me away at every show I've listened to them at. They built out a room-whitin-a-room for the demos, and often, that's the best sound demo at the entire show. A friend who has a Wisdom Audio setup in his HT has heard a Statement demo and thought it was competitive with his speakers.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

That will be a sweet setup, and I hope the construction integrates all the necessary acoustic treatments, as that much ESL surface area will require a good bit of absorption, lest the room rings like a bell.

Interesting that the Statement did not impress, I've yet to hear them, but the very similar Wisdom Audio in-wall line arrays blow me away at every show I've listened to them at. They built out a room-whitin-a-room for the demos, and often, that's the best sound demo at the entire show. A friend who has a Wisdom Audio setup in his HT has heard a Statement demo and thought it was competitive with his speakers.

Well I have 6' behind every single 15A. First I am building the room and then will add whatever treatment is needed in stages.

The statement is good, very large sound, but no larger than my 15As and lacked the electrostatic clarity and realism. For volume, the statements rocked, couldnt overpower if you tried, but I get plenty loud out of the 15As so does more really matter?

If space was tight I would in a heartbeat install 4 for my surrounds. I have actually thought about installing 4 in the ceiling as atmos speakers, but not sure if it would sound great or just toooo big

 

[JonFo]

I have actually thought about installing 4 in the ceiling as atmos speakers, but not sure if it would sound great or just toooo big

Not just size, but wrong dispersion characteristics for tops, Dolby specs a 120-degree even radiation pattern from a point-source, ideally coincident driver speakers, such as the JBL SCS8 or SCS12 used in the Dolby Cinemas. I run four SCS8, and they are plenty to keep up with the five ESLs, but if you have ceilings >10' then SCS12's might work. But an ML Sistine is a good in-ceiling alternative; those SCS speakers are enormous; glad I have a matte-black ceiling and upper 1' of the walls to help hide them.

 

[Robert D]

Well I have 6' behind every single 15A. First I am building the room and then will add whatever treatment is needed in stages.

The statement is good, very large sound, but no larger than my 15As and lacked the electrostatic clarity and realism. For volume, the statements rocked, couldnt overpower if you tried, but I get plenty loud out of the 15As so does more really matter?

If space was tight I would in a heartbeat install 4 for my surrounds. I have actually thought about installing 4 in the ceiling as atmos speakers, but not sure if it would sound great or just toooo big

So you're building a new theater room. Are you building the walls and ceiling special, with decoupling techniques and sound proofing material? Wondering what you will employ. I think I will hire someone to do that because I don't know much about it. I just dont want walls vibrating and creating noise that way, also disturbing the rest of the house. Will yours be in the basement? I also worry about sound traveling through the air ducts. Our house now does that. You can hear the sound system in the basement all the way up on the 2nd floor.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

No sir. Building it above the garage (I wanted a wood floor to flex for bass response) and only minimal soundproofing to keep the room quiet as I don’t care about keeping noise out. Then I’ll add acoustic treatment and move my seats for best response but the room follows some special size chart 1x1.6x2.6???

 

[Robert D]

No sir. Building it above the garage (I wanted a wood floor to flex for bass response) and only minimal soundproofing to keep the room quiet as I don’t care about keeping noise out. Then I’ll add acoustic treatment and move my seats for best response but the room follows some special size chart 1x1.6x2.6???

Are you worried about the walls vibrating with low frequencies? My family room now does that on occasion, but it's only certain frequencies. I can go out in the garage, it's on the other side of a family room wall, and the wall studs seem to be rattling inside the dry wall. In the family room the rattle is covered up some by the sound of the speakers, but in the garage its really bad. Similar to how a powerful sub makes a car's trunk vibrate and the license plate rattle. You have a LOT of those powerful BF 212 subs if I remember correctly.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Are you worried about the walls vibrating with low frequencies? My family room now does that on occasion, but it's only certain frequencies. I can go out in the garage, it's on the other side of a family room wall, and the wall studs seem to be rattling inside the dry wall. In the family room the rattle is covered up some by the sound of the speakers, but in the garage its really bad. Similar to how a powerful sub makes a car's trunk vibrate and the license plate rattle. You have a LOT of those powerful BF 212 subs if I remember correctly.

Wood studs properly affixed don’t vibrate at all. Usually it’s metal HVAC pipes or copper plumbing that can cause an issue. Steel studs are a nightmare.

To avoid this, everything except a few outlets will be run in the floor. The floor will be spray foamed, locking all pipes dead in place.

And if something does vibrate I will test that before drywall. Worst case, tear it down and fix again. And yes, going to have 16 BF212s or maybe a few more

 

[Robert D]

Wood studs properly affixed don’t vibrate at all. Usually it’s metal HVAC pipes or copper plumbing that can cause an issue. Steel studs are a nightmare.

To avoid this, everything except a few outlets will be run in the floor. The floor will be spray foamed, locking all pipes dead in place.

And if something does vibrate I will test that before drywall. Worst case, tear it down and fix again. And yes, going to have 16 BF212s or maybe a few more

I'm not sure exactly what's vibrating in mine. There is some HVAC duct work in that wall so that's probably it. I'm just guessing what the sound is.
I've seen that to decouple the walls, each wall has in effect two walls with space in between them so they don't touch. Other things done too.

 

[TiBoneFramer]

I'm not sure exactly what's vibrating in mine. There is some HVAC duct work in that wall so that's probably it. I'm just guessing what the sound is.
I've seen that to decouple the walls, each wall has in effect two walls with space in between them so they don't touch. Other things done too.

Im very fortunate I'm building in a room I dont need to worry about sound getting out. Soundproofing IMO is a massive frustration. All this work, all this money, and yet Bass is never really sound proofed, and little things like ducts and door kill a large portion of your progress. Necessary for some, and sure, I want to do something, no need for a house to hear 115db of audio, but if people know a movie is being watched...whats so bad about that

 

[Robert D]

Im very fortunate I'm building in a room I dont need to worry about sound getting out. Soundproofing IMO is a massive frustration. All this work, all this money, and yet Bass is never really sound proofed, and little things like ducts and door kill a large portion of your progress. Necessary for some, and sure, I want to do something, no need for a house to hear 115db of audio, but if people know a movie is being watched...whats so bad about that

My main worry is that with the bass vibrating the walls you can sometimes hear it during movies and music and that ruins it. In my room its not common though, and really only happen during movies. I have a bunch of knick knacks on the mantle and around the room that vibrate, so a nice empty room would work better. This is a family room though, so not a dedicated theater. Im sure your's will be fine. One problem for me is that I like to watch shows later at night and dont want to disturb the rest of the family. Lukcily I dont get many complaints, so either they cant hear it or they just put up with it,lol.

 

[msimanyi]

Going back to the OP's original question, I'm using 80 Hz for my home theater (HT) crossover setting for the Illusion. I don't do the mid-bass boost though, and I also don't play at "reference" volume levels, as I generally prefer my loudest playback not to exceed about 95 dB.

That said, I've only looked at playback volume for music, not for HT. My Apple Watch / Phone did give me a warning about loud sounds yesterday while I was playing a show, but it was 91 dBa. I also have a warning from the 18th of 93 dBa.

But I'm confused by the first post. @TiBoneFramer Are you using 60 Hz or 80 Hz for your crossover setting? Has ML / Ron responded with any guidance?

 

[TiBoneFramer]

Going back to the OP's original question, I'm using 80 Hz for my home theater (HT) crossover setting for the Illusion. I don't do the mid-bass boost though, and I also don't play at "reference" volume levels, as I generally prefer my loudest playback not to exceed about 95 dB.

That said, I've only looked at playback volume for music, not for HT. My Apple Watch / Phone did give me a warning about loud sounds yesterday while I was playing a show, but it was 91 dBa. I also have a warning from the 18th of 93 dBa.

But I'm confused by the first post. @TiBoneFramer Are you using 60 Hz or 80 Hz for your crossover setting? Has ML / Ron responded with any guidance?

80. When I ran ARC I set a roll off at 60hz in ARC hoping to double protect the speaker.

They are shipping new woofers as we speak. Will keep everyone posted