Fellas... you guys think we're in a recession?

[Rich]

Unfortunately, people don't mind if others are in pain BUT complain when the pain comes their way.

True, our elected politicians are only a reflection of ourselves. We are a nation of spoiled rotten brats with big egos and little minds. We suffer from an overall lack of compassion for our fellow man backed up by a surplus of self-righteous indignation. And we are GREEDY as hell, every one of us.

 

[User211]

True, our elected politicians are only a reflection of ourselves. We are a nation of spoiled rotten brats with big egos and little minds. We suffer from an overall lack of compassion for our fellow man backed up by a surplus of self-righteous indignation. And we are GREEDY as hell, every one of us.

"Man is the village animal, united by the force of our loathsome qualities - we are seeking, peeping Toms in revolt against each other."

Bad day, Rich?

Anyway, after a spend thrift Labour govt that blew all our gold reserves when gold was low, and just genrally spent, spent, spent, we're back to a much more Conservative attitude and there will be budjet cuts here left, right and centre. This will have an effect that is very observable to a lot of people, I'm sure. But at least it realises that the insanity of hyper-borrowing cannot go on - and on and on.

Fingers crossed for the UK. And the US, for that matter.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Ouch Rich, as Justin says, "Bad hair day"

I guess it depends on your definition of greed. Certainly an argument can easily be made that we are all in some way or another complicit with the current situation.

But I am sure that some of us have avoided greed and avarice just because of our nature. I for one believe that greed creates very bad karma and at some point Karma bites back, there are lots of examples of this, you just need to look around.

And I think it is important to distinguish, that just because someone has created wealth, and spends some of it to acquire what can be termed quality or even luxury goods and services, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a practising Avorite..........OK, I made that word up, but I am pretty sure everyone here would know what I meant.

And also I think it is important to believe that not everyone is greedy, at least I sincerely hope not.

But in the end....and I do mean the END....you may be right, it might not matter either way in the big picture.

Wow this thread got so heavy, my computer fell off the table and on to the floor where it broke in half and the parts came spilling out.

Has anyone heard the new Miley Cyrus album?

 

[Rich]

By GREED, I am referring to our avarice for resources rather than just purely monetary greed. We all want nice (usually meaning big) houses, sports cars and SUV's, beach condos and lake homes, big power-hungry stereo systems, boats, ATV's, iphones, ipads, etc. etc. We want a grocery store and a drug store on every corner. But those are too expensive, so we also want a walmart in every town. Fast food, anyone? You get my point. We as a nation consume more of the earth's resources per capita than any other country.

And if anyone tries to take away any of that, everyone affected screams bloody murder. If someone tries to actually cut wasteful spending in government, we wring our hands about the lost jobs. My local republican governor and legislators are all up in arms against Obama's cutting of the Constellation program, because it means we will lose some jobs here. No matter that Nasa is one of the most wasteful and inefficient agencies in the government and that the trip to the moon is a completely needless waste of money and resources (yet another Bush mistake). Everybody pretends to want "smaller government," until the cuts actually affect them personally.

That is what I mean by GREED. We are a nation that has a firm belief entrenched into our psyche that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. Everyone seems to want to have their cake and eat it too. No one wants to pay the ultimate price for it.

And yes, for the record, I have a nasty cold virus and a whiney toddler that have had me in a foul mood the past few days. Hope you guys have your virus protection software up to date.

 

[Len44]

Why dont you educate yourself on the facts instead of just partisan dribble, as I said there is enough blame to go around . I suggest you look into the facts.

Couple of quick points:

1. Just because you and another disagree about something, it does not automatically make the other person wrong. There is always the possibility that -- Gasp! -- they might actually be right...which would, of course, make you, well, you see where I'm going with this...

2. You seem to make a lot of assumptions regarding others that post on this site, and a number of these assumptions appear to be of the negative variety as well as wildly incorrect. It seems questionable for one to assume knowledge of others they have never met or encountered in any way whatsoever. While I don't pretend to know what drives you in this direction, it is offensive and fails to make a positive contribution to the thread.

3. I can't help but notice that many folks here are able to discuss matters while abstaining from personal insults. This seems like a good idea, no?

OK, I admit that was three points. Forgive me?

 

[Jimna]

I hope you feel better and the toddler gets over this stage quickly, Rich. Great post.

 

[repman]

William Boetcker, quotes
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.


Maxwell Anderson, quotes
When a government takes over a people’s economic life it becomes absolute, and when it has become absolute it destroys the arts, the minds, the liberties and the meaning of the people it governs


Frederic Bastiat, quotes
The state is the great fiction by which everybody seeks to live at the expense of everybody else.


Sir Winston Churchill, quotes
You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer.


Bertrand de Jouvenel, quotes
The more one considers the matter, the clearer it becomes that redistribution is in effect far less a redistribution of free income from the richer to the poorer, as we imagined, than a redistribution of power from the individual to the State.

 

[repman]

Couple of quick points:

1. Just because you and another disagree about something, it does not automatically make the other person wrong. There is always the possibility that -- Gasp! -- they might actually be right...which would, of course, make you, well, you see where I'm going with this...

2. You seem to make a lot of assumptions regarding others that post on this site, and a number of these assumptions appear to be of the negative variety as well as wildly incorrect. It seems questionable for one to assume knowledge of others they have never met or encountered in any way whatsoever. While I don't pretend to know what drives you in this direction, it is offensive and fails to make a positive contribution to the thread.

3. I can't help but notice that many folks here are able to discuss matters while abstaining from personal insults. This seems like a good idea, no?

OK, I admit that was three points. Forgive me?

I of course was only pointing out that instead of just laying blame at the Bush administration that perhaps he should educate himself to the facts and the shared amount of blame to go around , I dont find that to be negative at all.

I have a rather thoughtful and funny quote to share with you. I of course take this to heart as well. I hope you enjoy it

“Never argue with a fool; they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience”. Woody Allen

 

[Rich]

Repman,

Those are lots of nice quotes. Unfortunately, in the practice of complex society and civilization, they are pretty well meaningless.

Can you point me to one example, or more than one if you can, of any country or civilization in history that has for an extended period successfully implemented the type of limited government of which you preach?

 

[repman]

Repman,

Those are lots of nice quotes. Unfortunately, in the practice of complex society and civilization, they are pretty well meaningless.

Can you point me to one example, or more than one if you can, of any country or civilization in history that has for an extended period successfully implemented the type of limited government of which you preach?

Rich, I am not an economist or a historian but I will give you my take on this.

I cannot predict into the future and give you a definate answer to where our Republic is headed. I can tell you however that it seems to me that we are headed in the wrong direction.

all we have to do is look at the past few months and see what is happening in Europe. Greece, Spain , Great Britian , Germany, Italy, ect ect
They are in deep trouble and realize that they now have to cut government entitlements, pensions , healthcare, vacations, ect., ect. because it is unsustainable.
They have been down that road a lot farther then we are at this point and this action should be our wake up call.
The leaders of Europe at the G20 summit that just took place were lecturing us about the dangers of overspending and setting up more government stimulus.
They realize that they now have to cut these entitlements that they cannot pay for anymore.
If that is not a wake up call for us to stop this road of big government entitlements we are headed down I don't know what is.

I have to go get the wifes car seviced now , I will be back later for round two

 

[Len44]

I of course was only pointing out that instead of just laying blame at the Bush administration that perhaps he should educate himself to the facts and the shared amount of blame to go around , I dont find that to be negative at all.

Well, I am rather confident that most who review this thread would take exception to your notion that you were not being negative.

Just one example of your postings is this gem:

"Why dont you educate yourself on the facts instead of just partisan dribble, as I said there is enough blame to go around . I suggest you look into the facts."

This assumes the other person is (a) insufficiently educated to deserve the right to post an opinion, and (b) that this person had neglected to "look into the facts."

Sure seems negative to me.

I have a rather thoughtful and funny quote to share with you. I of course take this to heart as well. I hope you enjoy it

“Never argue with a fool; they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience”. Woody Allen

Funny quote. I had been thinking of this one:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It frustrates you and annoys the hell out of the pig!"

 

[repman]

I am a little frustrated , how long will it be before you are done with your singing lessons I am sure you are getting annoyed with your lack of progress

 

[Len44]

I am a little frustrated , how long will it be before you are done with your singing lessons I am sure you are getting annoyed with your lack of progress

Clever. Unfortunately, like usual, you got it exactly bass-ackwards!

 

[repman]

I'm quite confident that I got it exactly right.

 

[robertawillisjr]

I'm out. :banghead:

 

[Rich]

Repman,

So, reading between the lines of your quotes, you advocate a limited role for the federal government (as is the standard party line from most conservatives), yet you cannot point to even one example where such a form of government has been successful for any period of time. Perhaps "limited government" is just a pipe dream with no application in the real world. I'll give you an example of a modern-day country with limited central government: Somalia.

You point to Europe as an example of failure and to show where our country is headed. And yet, despite their current fiscal troubles, the european countries share one of the highest standards of living the world has ever known. As do we in this country, even with our so-called "communist/socialist" policies of aiding the weak and the poor and regulating corporations.

You are trying to use the temporary financial crisis of a global economic depression as an example of the failure of the model of government used by the europeans. I'm sorry, but it is not that simple. In fact, history has shown that such austerity measures as they are taking right now is the exact wrong thing to do at this time. When times are good is when government should be cutting wasteful spending. When times are bad, spending helps to re-stimulate economic activity. China seems to still be doing well economically, despite the global depression. Perhaps you would point to them as an example of success that our government should emulate since current economic prosperity seems to be your only definition of successful government?

I am not against cutting wasteful government spending and actually trying to balance our budget. I will say that entitlement programs are not the bogeyman you make them out to be. Tell me, what government programs comprise over half of our current overall spending of federal income tax revenues each year? Let me help you with that one: the military. That's right, over half of your tax dollars each year are going to support our military machine, the wars abroad, and benefits for veterans. But if you make any suggestion that we might want to cut back on military spending and all the "small-government" supposed fiscal conservatives seem to go into a tailspin and predict doomsday.

My point is that quotes are nice platitudes, but they don't have a lot of application in real-world governing. And telling someone to learn the "facts" simply points out the conundrum that different facts mean different things to different people. Facts mean nothing without context. And context is interpreted according to individual biases.

You say this mess is mostly Clinton's fault, yet he presided over one of the greatest economic expansions in this country's history. According to your seeming measure of success, he was incredibly successful. Bush took office with a budget surplus, and so he gave tax cuts to the rich and engaged in multiple wars. To hear the Reagan economists talk about it, Bush's tax cuts should have spurred economic growth. That is obviously not what happened. Instead, we have had multiple recessions with little economic growth.

Is our country headed in the wrong direction? Absolutely. But it has nothing to do with entitlements. It has everything to do with our inability to get along with each other, our exploding population which leaves us fighting over limited resources, and the GREED that I mentioned earlier.

 

[repman]

I'm out. :banghead:

Rich,I am with Robert , I am out!!

While I enjoy a good debate,I have forgoten a very important lesson I learned a long time ago but chose to ignore.

You can never convince a Zealot and to try is fruitless:banghead:

I say we can agree to disagree on economic and social issues and call it a day.

How about the sound of those MARTIN LOGANS, I hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend.

 

[Rich]

Repman,

Every time someone critically questions your overly-generalized political statements or even professes a different viewpoint than you, your response is to denigrate them with personal insults. You seem completely incapable of arguing your point of view without resulting to insulting the other person.

You chide others to "learn the facts" while you provide precious little factual information or rational analysis to back up your simplistic view of the world.

I am pretty sure that Robert left the conversation exactly because you were unable to debate the issue rationally without acting like a four year old child. And you are leaving the conversation apparently because the thought processes required to debate a complex issue are beyond your means. You appear incapable of providing any factual support for your opinions, so you instead just resort to useless quotations, bullying, calling names, and then running away. Gee, you should consider a run for office. Sounds like the makings of a good politician.

 

[mcmd]

Don't worry, everything's fine. Nobody's planning on being paid back anyway- it's far more useful for us all to remain wage-slaves. :ROFL:

 

[tonepub]

Repman,

Is our country headed in the wrong direction? Absolutely. But it has nothing to do with entitlements. It has everything to do with our inability to get along with each other, our exploding population which leaves us fighting over limited resources, and the GREED that I mentioned earlier.

For me, this hits the nail right on the head....

I'm all in favor of a free market and unlimited potential for growth, but when things get as skewed as they've become, something has to be changed. I wish I knew what made sense, but again looking to a few of the smaller countries in Europe like Switzerland and Denmark, I wonder if their isn't an answer somewhere else.

When I visited the Nagra factory last summer, our guide explained that the CEO of Nagra only makes about ten times what a skilled (emphasis on that word) machinist on the factory floor makes.

He also mentioned that a machinist has just as much social respect as a corporate CEO in Swiss society. People that build and create things are valued there. It used to be that way here in America. When I lived in Phoenix, my next door neighbor laughed at me for changing my own oil in my Porsche, saying it was "very blue collar" to do so.

I feel there's still enough resources left so that everyone can have some, but not if we have a small handful of people hoarding hundreds and thousands more than they need. And that's what's driving the shortsighted decisions. Seriously, once you have a bit more wealth than you need, (I know that's tough to define...) do you really need 100 times more than that?

Same with the entitlements. A good friend in Denmark told me that he doesn't always like the 60% tax rate he's in, but the system works there. Kids get a good education, old people are taken care of, the health care system is intact and there weren't any people on the streets begging for money in downtown Copenhagen. He told me, "As long as it still works, I don't mind working hard and paying the taxes."

If your job is eliminated, the govt. will take care of your living expenses and send you back to school for 1-4 years to be retrained to work elsewhere.

The other dark side of the greed issue is crime. I really feel people turn to crime when they feel like they have no way of ever getting anything. (and knowing that even if they do get caught, the penalty isn't that severe.) the bigger the gap between the ultra rich and the have nots, the more interesting a life of crime looks to getting a masters degree.

I'm not saying I want socialism, I don't. I don't think a pure socialist society works because there is no incentive to work hard and excel at anything if there is NO reward structure. But a pure capitalist, market driven economy doesn't work either, because the greedy ones at the top just take it all and hang everyone out to dry. I think the last 6-10 years have shown us how this will play out.

So, I hope we can figure it out. I'm certainly willing to give up a bit and pitch in to help. But like my pal Lars says, as long as the system works.