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ESL are not as good as cone speakers?

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Vinnyy

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I recently upgraded to Aeons with a B&K Reference 2220 (220W) stereo amp from Klipsch RVX-54 speakers. Using the same set of gears, I found that the Aeons sounded dull and "rolled off" comparing to my Klipsch cone speakers. (I also tried a pair of Sequel II using the same gears found the same)

I thought ESL speakers are much better in delivering sound quality so I am deeply disappointed about the upgrade. Any one has similar experience? What would be the problem here?

AEON, B&K REF2220, HK-RECEIVER, HK CD PLAYER.
Vinny
 

garmtz

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Vinnyy said:
I recently upgraded to Aeons with a B&K Reference 2220 (220W) stereo amp from Klipsch RVX-54 speakers. Using the same set of gears, I found that the Aeons sounded dull and "rolled off" comparing to my Klipsch cone speakers. (I also tried a pair of Sequel II using the same gears found the same)

I thought ESL speakers are much better in delivering sound quality so I am deeply disappointed about the upgrade. Any one has similar experience? What would be the problem here?
The problem is not with the Aeons or Sequel II, but with your taste in sound. The Klipsch speakers have extremely much energy in the highs, because they use a horn for the high frequencies, which have a tendency to get shouty/hard and are very direct sounding. This is the sound you like/are accustomed to. Nothing really wrong with any of these speakers, just your taste or habits are leaning more to Klipsch speakers.

Take time to get to appreciate the qualities of the Aeons and spend a lot of time on the placement of the speakers.
 

attyonline

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I assume that you listened to the Logans before you purchased them? It is impossible not to tell the difference in sound between the two speakers you have owned. If you compared both before purchase, there must have been something compelling in the sound of the Logans that convinced you to buy them and sell your Klipschs. If the above is true, I cannot understand your reaction to the Logans since the difference in sound between these models is so striking.
 

SugarMedia

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Vinnyy said:
I found that the Aeons sounded dull and "rolled off" comparing to my Klipsch cone speakers.
Them are fightin' word Vinnyy. (Just kidding)

to an extent I understand what you're saying b/c when I auditioned a couple pairs of cone speakers back to back and then the Aeons, I found the sound to be a night and day difference. The cones definitely pushed the sound at me, it felt forceful, whereas the aeons, when set-up properly encompassed me with a chill. The music seemed to linger and float in the air. It came from all directions, not just where I knew the box was.

Here's a post from another member (Roberto) "Listen to a live unplugged double bass, or any live piano or guitar, listend carefully the bass notes...then make up your mind who is close to it. All depends of your electronics, cables and signal source. With all respect, the stationary waves, the standing waves sometimes produce a room resonace that we might think it is right, but it is not. I strongly recommend to you to move your speakers to the back wall at least one feet, this will encrease your bass energy. Remember, it´s the qulity, not the quantity!"
 

kach22i

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I run into this cooking for my wife. She did not grow up with home cooking. When I make something from scratch with half the salt, sugar and fat of what comes out of a can or freezer - it's just not home-like to her, and her taste buds may reject it.

I've heard that people who grow up on farms with fresh eggs and meat can't believe how tasteless store bought food products are.

If you like a head banging, sharp in your face sound the stats are not going to cut it for you.

My theory is that the stats require more juice and quality souce/processing than comparable cone/horn drivers....................this could be what you are hearing. Althought it sopunds like you are using the upper end mid-fi equipment band.

It could also be room acoustics which accounts for 50% of what you hear? Is your room full of heavy furniture, thick drapes and lush carpeting? Could be too dead of a room for the M/L's and just right for the brighter and often (that juice thing again) more dynamic Klipsch speakers.
 

twich54

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Vinny, Kach makes a valid point. I too switched from Klipsch (RF-7 / RC-7) so here goes my explanation. First off the RVX-54 is more of a Video/HT speaker than one for serious listening of "music", secondly like all Klipsch speakers they are ungoddly easy to drive vs. the M/L's. With what your using for an amp that tells me you like things VERY bright. When you audtioned the Aeon's what were they being driven with, preamp and amp combo? I personally have never seen a receiver do them justice, the preamplification stage is every bit as important.
The differences between my Vantage's and the Klpisch I was using is like night and Day.......on two channel music listening, I still feel for 5.1 and watching movies the Klipsch speakers are one of the best $$$ values out there.
 

Daryl Zero

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I've been wondering if there is just some people who respond to the esl/planar sound and others who respond to the cone speakers.

The first time I heard the Martin Logans, I knew in 5 seconds that I preferred that shound. Cones are difficult for me to listen to.
 

Joey_V

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Vinnyy said:
I recently upgraded to Aeons with a B&K Reference 2220 (220W) stereo amp from Klipsch RVX-54 speakers. Using the same set of gears, I found that the Aeons sounded dull and "rolled off" comparing to my Klipsch cone speakers. (I also tried a pair of Sequel II using the same gears found the same)

I thought ESL speakers are much better in delivering sound quality so I am deeply disappointed about the upgrade. Any one has similar experience? What would be the problem here?

AEON, B&K REF2220, HK-RECEIVER, HK CD PLAYER.
Vinny
I have a lot of experience with the RVX54 speakers. What you are describing is due to the fact that the Klipsch 54 is lacking in the midrange area, the bass area, and makes up for it with a bump in the treble regions. The 54 arent a balanced speaker from what I heard. The Aeons, being a more balanced speaker, wont be in your face and wont hav ethe overall same predominance in the upper frequency regions.
 

roberto

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Vinnyy said:
I recently upgraded to Aeons with a B&K Reference 2220 (220W) stereo amp from Klipsch RVX-54 speakers. Using the same set of gears, I found that the Aeons sounded dull and "rolled off" comparing to my Klipsch cone speakers. (I also tried a pair of Sequel II using the same gears found the same)

I thought ESL speakers are much better in delivering sound quality so I am deeply disappointed about the upgrade. Any one has similar experience? What would be the problem here?

AEON, B&K REF2220, HK-RECEIVER, HK CD PLAYER.
Vinny
Hola Vinny...with all respect, I think your Harman Kardon is the one that cannot drive low impedance...it's a power amplifier problem...remember that all ML at high frequency, the impedance drops like a brick and you have in some cases less than 1 ohm at 20K Hz...and you need a high current amplifier to drive them, otherwise, you will have loss at high frecuency. Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

amey01

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It really is just a matter of what you are used to. You will get used to the superior 'logan sound very quickly and after a week or so of listening to your Aeons try going back to what you had - you'll no doubt find that they are ripping your ears apart and you can no longer handle the coarse, shouty high frequencies.

Things to try anyway:

1: Ensure the speakers are toed in correctly - you should be listening to the inner 1/3 of the ES Panel. There are some excellent threads on this site about how to toe a 'logan in correctly.

2: Listening height (or speaker angle) - try raising or lowering your listening height slightly, or if this is not feasable, try to tilt the speakers back and forth. ES panels are very beamy and have to be aimed directly at you.

3: Also play with placement - ensure they have plenty of room to breathe and pull them out quite a way from the back wall.

4: Also take not of what Roberto and Kach said about your amplification and room damping.

Hope this helps - it is certainly worth persistence!
 

TomDac

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I would never try to drive Sequel IIs with a receiver. The older MLs like Sequel IIs were really hard to drive. The Aeons should be easier than the Sequels, but still I'd venture to say the HK is having a hard time driving them properly.

I'd start looking for a new amp to drive them.. Check and see if the HK has pre-outs on the back where you can connect an outboard amp for the mains. Then you can experiment with amps while not changing your HK which will be utilized as a pre-amp... Maybe you have a dealer nearby who will let you demo different amps for a few days.

Also remember that if your Aeons are brand spankin' new, they'll require some break-in and like everyone else has said, placement is CRITICAL.

Don't give up... you've made a major upgrade and electrostatic speakers will definitely reveal weaknesses in not only your amp (or in this case your receiver) but your upstream components and cabling, so if you're up for it you are in for a WONDERFUL experience of making your Aeons sing. If you're not up for the challenge, I'd suggest dumping the Logans and going back to a more conventional set of mains.

Good Luck and keep us posted!

Tom.
 

Dominick22

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It strikes me as funny to read this thread because I think that the logan represent the high frequencies very well. Better than most cone driven speakers. I love klipsch too (for the money), but I think the thread about personal taste is the issue.

I auditioned my 5.1 Logan Reference system (Ascent i Reference) for a friend who is a critical listener and he said that the highs were too bight and harsh. Part of me wonders if the highs were just cleaner and more pronounced than he had ever heard...but to each his own. We auditioned Metallica, Ashanti and YoYo Ma by the way because that is what he chose from my collection. Odd combo eh?

Actually, I reccomend one of the last tracks on the Ashanti cd. It is about a 3 min solo vocal and boy does my Theater i sing. That would be a great reference song for you to listen very critically.


Can you take the Logans back??

Dominick
 

Robin

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It's a Power Amplifier Problem...

roberto said:
Hola Vinny...with all respect, I think your Harman Kardon is the one that cannot drive low impedance...it's a power amplifier problem...remember that all ML at high frequency, the impedance drops like a brick and you have in some cases less than 1 ohm at 20K Hz...and you need a high current amplifier to drive them, otherwise, you will have loss at high frecuency. Hope this can help...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
Vinny,

Welcome to the ML Club!
Roberto is correct. IMHO, I would try another high current amplifier Anthem, Sim Audio, Cary Audio, Classe, Sunfire, Rotel are excellent. :D

Room acoustics, Speaker positioning are truly 50% of the sound. ;)

Good luck on your audio quest... :D
 

Reverb

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Guys,

He is using a B&K Ref 2220 amp to power his Aeon's, thats 220 watts of power at 8 Ohms. Power should not be a factor.

He looks to be using the HK as his Pre-Amp.
 

roberto

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Zip3kx07 said:
Guys,

He is using a B&K Ref 2220 amp to power his Aeon's, thats 220 watts of power at 8 Ohms. Power should not be a factor.

He looks to be using the HK as his Pre-Amp.
Hola...it is not a matter of power, it is a matter of impedance...the amp, must have being designed to drive low impedance. Hope this can help, happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

kach22i

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B&K is supposed to be good equiptment with lots of current.

Do you have the power amp pluged into a power strip or power conditioner by any chance? That could take a little of the sparkle out of it all on it's own.

My power amp is plugged straight into the wall - a dedicated circuit of course. :)
 

Reverb

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roberto said:
Hola...it is not a matter of power, it is a matter of impedance...the amp, must have being designed to drive low impedance. Hope this can help, happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
I know that Roberto, I have owned a B&K amp, and at 125 watts of power and 45 amps of current, it drove my system with ease. The bass with the little B&K was far better then my 200 watt 75amp Sunfire amp in comparison. But the B&K is not a warm amp, I found its sound cold and had a little bit of a digital quality. B&K’s are four-ohm stage and can do 2 Ohms on a time-limited basis.
 

roberto

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Zip3kx07 said:
I know that Roberto, I have owned a B&K amp, and at 125 watts of power and 45 amps of current, it drove my system with ease. The bass with the little B&K was far better then my 200 watt 75amp Sunfire amp in comparison. But the B&K is not a warm amp, I found its sound cold and had a little bit of a digital quality. B&K’s are four-ohm stage and can do 2 Ohms on a time-limited basis.
Thanks for the clarification Zip3kx07, so another cause of the loss of high frequency could be bad panels. We all know tha quality of the highs that ML has, and there is no way to compare the cone sound versus electrostatic and ML, and less claim that the sound of cone speakers is far better than his MLs. I can´t think in another posibility, what do you think about this?...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
 

kach22i

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roberto said:
another cause of the loss of high frequency could be bad panels.
Oh, right....................this is going to turn into another clean and vacuum your panels thread isn't it. :)
 

LaserMark4

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roberto said:
We all know tha quality of the highs that ML has, and there is no way to compare the cone sound versus electrostatic and ML, and less claim that the sound of cone speakers is far better than his MLs. I can´t think in another posibility, what do you think about this?...happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.
I'd say it's probably a power issue if they are fairly new, and a comparison with another amp/receiver may give some revealing comparisons as to the ultimate problem. I would agree its not a ML vs cone issue at all.....something is wrong in the chain of components.
 
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