Speaker-cables & ESL’s; low-capacitance - coax???

[Victor]

Hi George (TjeerT),
First of all welcome to the MLC

There is absolutely no doubt that the awkward impedance characteristics of electrostats easily expose the differences between speaker cables, however that does not imply that expensive is good although there may be a loose relationship?

My suggestion would be that if your MLs are less than 4 metres apart with your amp in the centre (best place for it), you could use 2 metre runs per channel of e.g. NAIM A4 or A5 cable. The spacer in the middle guarantees low capacitance so it should be very amplifier friendly and stat friendly. Similarly the large CSA gives low resistance and the cable will also have reasonably low inductance. By halving the cable length - since they're usually sold in 3-5m runs - you halve the characteristics R/L/C mentioned earlier. This can give a very beneficial result.
They sound excellent by the way- and I've compared mine with expensive single/bi-wires !
Just my $0.02 worth.......hope this is helpful...............Victor.

 

[grantc79]

I do have one final comment regarding this gentleman's post. I am approaching 1,000 posts on this wonderful site so I believe I have tried to offer quite a bit on a wide range of topics, including wire.

This gentleman has posted 13 times and is judging me regarding my contributions and / or what I have to offer.

First its personal attacks and new seniority?

If you can make your point on its own merits or any hard information rather than "my stereo has better synergy with it and it makes me emotional" then offer it up.

Having a higher post count doesn't make you correct. Being older doesn't make you wiser. If that's all you got then feel free to just not offer up anything. :ROFL:

Hello,
It seems as consistent as Summer turns to Fall, a new member comes along to enlighten all of us fools about the fallacy of using high quality cables.

This is usually followed by the contention that an amplifier is an amplifier and other pearls of wisdom. Always backed up with ABX testing. I honestly believe some of this is due to jealousy. Perhaps the inability to afford gear that is truly transparent.

You are no different or than GG.

I didn't come here and make a thread saying you guys are wrong about cables. Another person whom I don't know started this thread about cables. He was asking for people's opinion and I gave him mine. I wasn't mean, forceful, or anything else. I was simply honest.

People like yourself and GG cannot handle that so you say:

"I don't hear well enough to know what I'm talking about"
"I'm ignorant"
"OMG even my wife gets it"
"You are obviously too poor to afford what we can or you would understand"

I don't buy your seniority, your elitist attitude, or your bullshit in general.

The only response I've been given here as to why one cable is truly better than another deals with synergy, emotion, faith, spiritualism, astrology, scientology, and stopped just short of using Tom Cruise as an explanation.




All I can say is if you hear the difference and you believe then fine. It is your money and spend it however you choose. More power to you.

However, if another person makes a thread and asks for opinions then I think we should be free to offer up ours.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Get a flippin life and please stop your rant on this site.

The vast majority of people on this site totally disagree with your position.

Don't you get it?

Obviously not.

It appears you like to see your nonsense posts on a computer screen. Could be an ego thing. Who knows and frankly, I could care less.

I would suggest that you visit and participate on sites that ascribe to your position.

Peter Ackzel (The Audio Critic) comes to mind. I'm sure there are others.

You clearly qualify as the proverbial TROLL.

 

[kach22i]

Cool it down boys.

For arguments sake, let's say for a minute that cable is cable.

Now, would a copper cable of greater purity and less oxygen in it not oxidize as quickly as a cheap one?

If you keep your two sets of copper cables ten years and test them again would the results be the same?

Quality of the metal and insulators used should have at least some long term difference, right?

Just trying to find a middle ground here, a starting point.

 

[grantc79]

Cool it down boys.

For arguments sake, let's say for a minute that cable is cable.

Now, would a copper cable of greater purity and less oxygen in it not oxidize as quickly as a cheap one?

If you keep your two sets of copper cables ten years and test them again would the results be the same?

Quality of the metal and insulators used should have at least some long term difference, right?

Just trying to find a middle ground here, a starting point.

With all due respect I think you are just missing the point.

I didn't come here to argue. Someone started this thread asking for opinions. If you go back and read my opinion it was not at all confrontational, mean, rude, or in any way negative.

However, since then other people on this forum have been negative, mean, rude, and confrontational towards me.

They have said they are right and I am stupid because of synergy, post counts, seniority, have better equipment, they believe themselves wealthier, have wives with better hearing, and on down the list.

I didn't start this fight and honestly I don't really want to have it. But just because I don't post here as much as others (I registered in March of 2008 by the way) doesn't mean I won't defend myself.

 

[kach22i]

Someone started this thread asking for opinions.

Just so you get your facts straight, this thread was started way back in March, it's October now. I posted in the old thread which brought it to the top because I thought there was interesting information other's may have also missed.

Anyone could have just read the old thread and took away with them some old opinions.

It takes two to tangle, Gordon is at least as feisty as you Grant, accept it and just let people be different than you.

Viva la Difference

PS: My wife's hearing is better than mine, and most likely yours.

 

[grantc79]

Just so you get your facts straight, this thread was started way back in March, it's October now. I posted in the old thread which brought it to the top because I thought there was interesting information other's may have also missed.

Anyone could have just read the old thread and took away with them some old opinions.

It takes two to tangle, Gordon is at least as feisty as you Grant, accept it and just let people be different than you.

Viva la Difference

PS: My wife's hearing is better than mine, and most likely yours.

Ahh point taken I didn't even check for when the thread was started.

But for the record my cats hear better than any of you guys or your wives and they hate all music except for this kind:

http://musicforcats.com/

 

[Jungle Jack]

First its personal attacks and new seniority?

If you can make your point on its own merits or any hard information rather than "my stereo has better synergy with it and it makes me emotional" then offer it up.

Having a higher post count doesn't make you correct. Being older doesn't make you wiser. If that's all you got then feel free to just not offer up anything. :ROFL:



You are no different or than GG.

I didn't come here and make a thread saying you guys are wrong about cables. Another person whom I don't know started this thread about cables. He was asking for people's opinion and I gave him mine. I wasn't mean, forceful, or anything else. I was simply honest.

People like yourself and GG cannot handle that so you say:

"I don't hear well enough to know what I'm talking about"
"I'm ignorant"
"OMG even my wife gets it"
"You are obviously too poor to afford what we can or you would understand"

I don't buy your seniority, your elitist attitude, or your bullshit in general.

The only response I've been given here as to why one cable is truly better than another deals with synergy, emotion, faith, spiritualism, astrology, scientology, and stopped just short of using Tom Cruise as an explanation.




All I can say is if you hear the difference and you believe then fine. It is your money and spend it however you choose. More power to you.

However, if another person makes a thread and asks for opinions then I think we should be free to offer up ours.

You are a classless douche. I acknowledged that differences between solid state amplification can be difficult to differentiate. Furthermore, pertaining to cables, I gave you scenarios when using high quality connectors (WBT) can actually prevent accidental damage due to cables coming loose and causing shorts. Never did I say that spending thousands on cables was going to make a system thousands of dollars better.

It is just the vast majority are all well aware of ABX testing and the results with amplifiers and cables.
Nothing I said was elitist, nothing I said was even rude. Until your comment that is.

 

[Gordon]

Could one expect anything else in a cables thread? I enjoy the back and forth between both sides and find it entertaining.

What I find troublesome, is that TjeerT has not responded since this joke has has started. He asked about upgrading cables and the naysayers have again brought the discussion down to the gutter.

Grantc79, it must be obvious that he believes in the qualities of certain wires. You seem to be an intelligent person. Why would you inject yourself into a discussion about wires among the believers? Would it not be in your interest to just say you don't believe in the possible differences in cables? Instead you offend many people with your immature remarks about wives, synergy and wealth.

There all levels of income here. From the rich to the not so rich. Your comments on this aspect is offensive to me. If you can't afford or choose not to purchase high end cable is your choice. Just don't throw money in my face.

Some of us designed our systems with our wives in mind so if they say something sounds good or bad, most of us take it as a point worth listening to.

Synergy is a real and unmeasurable factor in all of our systems. The Mogami XLR's ICs I initially used sounded thin when used with Mapleshades speaker wire.

You obviously have had no experience TRYING wires in YOUR home. The cost of wire has no bearing on the synergy of a system that a couple can share. Nor should it be a limiting factor.

Your a douche, just as Mark has previously stated.

Gordon

 

[kach22i]

I thought you needed to have an orange tan while making gang signs with one hand and have a rolled up collar or backward baseball hat to be a real douche.

Samples:
http://www.hotchickswith...douche....bags.com/

 

[grantc79]

Grantc79, it must be obvious that he believes in the qualities of certain wires. You seem to be an intelligent person. Why would you inject yourself into a discussion about wires among the believers? Would it not be in your interest to just say you don't believe in the possible differences in cables? Instead you offend many people with your immature remarks about wives, synergy and wealth.

There all levels of income here. From the rich to the not so rich. Your comments on this aspect is offensive to me. If you can't afford or choose not to purchase high end cable is your choice. Just don't throw money in my face.

Some of us designed our systems with our wives in mind so if they say something sounds good or bad, most of us take it as a point worth listening to.

Synergy is a real and unmeasurable factor in all of our systems. The Mogami XLR's ICs I initially used sounded thin when used with Mapleshades speaker wire.

You obviously have had no experience TRYING wires in YOUR home. The cost of wire has no bearing on the synergy of a system that a couple can share. Nor should it be a limiting factor.

Your a douche, just as Mark has previously stated.

Gordon

With all due respect I think you didn't really bother to read the thread at all.

A thread was started about cables and I gave my honest opinion about them. I was not confrontational. I didn't single out anyone in any negative way.

During that time one person referred to me as an ignorant "flat earther" when it comes to audio, another person said his wife walked BY the room not even paying attention and thought the difference was night and day (anyone believe this?), then Mark Linkous chimed in and said I was just jealous because he thinks that he is wealthier and can afford things which I cannot.

So I'm the one being a douche?

At least have some modicum of reading comprehension before you jump in with your 2 cents. And before you ask:

Main Entry: mo·di·cum
Pronunciation: \ˈmä-di-kəm also ˈmō-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, neuter of modicus moderate, from modus measure
Date: 15th century

: a small portion : a limited quantity



As far as trying them in my own home I'm sorry that doesn't matter nor does anywhere else you can try them.

Pretty much EVERYTHING ELSE we purchase in life has a level of performance that can be measured against its competitors. Amps, Pre-Amps, DACs, and on down the list they all have measurable differences. To be Seussical those differences can be measured in a house, on a float, on a boat while crossing a moat. Basically ANYWHERE.

The only thing in the realm of audio that doesn't fit into this category is cables. You can't measure their differences because you can't measure "synergy" and you can only tell a difference in your own home. What a great ****ing marketing idea!

Now guess what outside of audio we buy that doesn't have measurable performance differences? Those things are jewelry, art, and fashion.

The douche rests.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Grant,

Your closing line gave me a well needed laugh this Monday morning.

After posting on numerous wire threads, I've decided to state my position, that is try before you buy in your system, with a money back guarantee and be done with it.

Out of curiosity, and in the spirit of cooperation and non confrontational discourse, can you tell us, if you so desire, what level / brand of cable you deem sufficient that fits your criteria of no longer hearing a difference?

GG

 

[Brad225]

Grant
I am curious, how long ago did you listen to the SL3's, Summits and B & W's with the Transparent cables?

I looked and could not find what equipment you are currently using at home. It has been mentioned that maybe there is a miss match with some of your equipment. Could you post it so I might get more of your prospective on this topic.

Thanks

 

[grantc79]

Grant,

Your closing line gave me a well needed laugh this Monday morning.

After posting on numerous wire threads, I've decided to state my position, that is try before you buy in your system, with a money back guarantee and be done with it.

Dude, you have no idea how 100% with you I am and that is all I have maintained all along.

Out of curiosity, and in the spirit of cooperation and non confrontational discourse, can you tell us, if you so desire, what level / brand of cable you deem sufficient that fits your criteria of no longer hearing a difference?

GG

Honestly, I think 99% of it is the gauge of the wire.

If you are running a ton of watts to a very demanding speaker then run some heavy duty wire. Otherwise, I don't really think it matters.



PS: I like you a lot better when we aren't bickering like children. If you ever find yourself in New Orleans PM me and we'll hash this out over a beer or two. :bowdown:

 

[grantc79]

Grant
I am curious, how long ago did you listen to the SL3's, Summits and B & W's with the Transparent cables?

About 2 years ago.

I looked and could not find what equipment you are currently using at home. It has been mentioned that maybe there is a miss match with some of your equipment. Could you post it so I might get more of your prospective on this topic.

Thanks

I've had everything from Paradigm Studios, to an SL3/Stage/Script I setup, to Line Arrays, and everything else you can imagine.

Right now I don't have much of anything. I'm in rebuilding mode right now.

 

[kach22i]

Grant, high humidity (+70%) can make for muddy sound, lack of highs and the bass taking over (no mention of glare). I just realized you are in N.O., please read this thread and links within.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1401&highlight=himidity

 

[grantc79]

Grant, high humidity (+70%) can make for muddy sound, lack of highs and the bass taking over (no mention of glare). I just realized you are in N.O., please read this thread and links within.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1401&highlight=himidity

Interesting, but wouldn't that only effect outdoor listening?

I mean the design of an air conditioner is to remove dampness/humidity from your house.

I do have air conditioning.

 

[kach22i]

Interesting, but wouldn't that only effect outdoor listening?

I mean the design of an air conditioner is to remove dampness/humidity from your house.

I do have air conditioning.

I guess it depends on if the A/C is running year round, and if the system is properly undersized.

If the A/C system is over-sized it will cool the building down quickly, but not run long enough to remove the proper comfort level of moisture from the air.

 

[grantc79]

I guess it depends on if the A/C is running year round, and if the system is properly undersized.

If the A/C system is over-sized it will cool the building down quickly, but not run long enough to remove the proper comfort level of moisture from the air.

Dude trust me in south Louisiana we are A/C experts.:ROFL:

 

[Gordon]

I would like to extend an apology to grantc and anyone else who may have been offended by my last post.

I was drawn into a discussion I normally stay away from. I allowed my emotion to overrule my principle in this case and the resulting post surely offended someone.

Gordon