Enough Power?

[tsv_1]

wow spike, thanks for your related thread, very informative.Are you some kind of audio engineer or work for ML to figure that out, . I am an electrcian,and at uni part time doing a degree in civil engineering and i would not have come up with that..
the other thing m a little confused is the dB rating.I can t really visualized what 90dB represents.What s the best way to know what 90dB sounds like. is it loud or low level listening?
regartds

If you have a smart phone, there are a number of free SPL meter apps out there. As a point of reference, I'm listening to some relatively soft classical music right now here via my computer speakers (Corelli Sonatas). Max dB reading is about 75dB here in the nearfield.

Here's a decent little primer on SPLs and related information that you might find useful.

 

[Spike]

wow spike, thanks for your related thread, very informative.Are you some kind of audio engineer or work for ML to figure that out, .

Thanks for the comment. Engineer - Yes. Audio related - no. I'm just a hobbyist.

the other thing m a little confused is the dB rating.I can t really visualized what 90dB represents.What s the best way to know what 90dB sounds like. is it loud or low level listening?

Get one of these SPL app and see for yourself what 90db sounds like:
SPL Meter App from iTunes Not bad for $1!
If you don't have an iPhone, then you can look up "SPL meter" on Amazon.com.

 

[Guitarist]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"! And thanks, Spike, for assuming I know what I want! My Levinson No.334 amp drove the Requests just fine, but it's in another universe of quality compared to my Sony receiver! I won't be able to purchase a new amp right away (I have the money, just not "permission"!), but I'll report back when I do.

 

[roberto]

I have to thanks too to Spike and tsv_1. You made me to go back to School. But, to understand a little better regarding power, just go to Best Buy or any store that sells those portable CD-FM players and you can read 2000 Watts of power or even 3000 Watts of pure power (MPO=music power output), and we all know how they sound. With all the respect to a person who might have a Sanyo or simiilar power amplifier, there is a kind of sense of rule: you get for what you did pay. This does not means that the most expensive goods are the best, but in a general rule, if you are going to spend $ 3000.00 for a power amplifier, then, you should listen to the most brands on that category of price, and choose the one that you liked most. Yes, all amps sound different. But quality remains at this pricing point. All the manufactures are offering the best that they can, because they need to sell the goods. If you do not like what you are listening, then you do not buy it, right? Read a lot regarding and about the good that you are thinking to buy, and also, listen to it! If you liked it, then get it. Just because I say it is ok, does not means that you should like it too. Trust your ears! You are the one who is going to live listening to it. I wish a very happy listening to all!

 

[eknuds01]

It's a matter of context. If you have big speakers, a big room, and want to listen to music at a moderately loud level - you'll need an amp that can throw out some current, especially if the source material demands a swing to a lower ohm regime.

If you have a small home office and like to have Patricia Barber playing at 85dB - an integrated amp with 50W may be more than sufficient.

There are some many options with amps, it's almost a "paralysis by analysis" type of problem.

Erik

 

[shakham]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"! And thanks, Spike, for assuming I know what I want! My Levinson No.334 amp drove the Requests just fine, but it's in another universe of quality compared to my Sony receiver! I won't be able to purchase a new amp right away (I have the money, just not "permission"!), but I'll report back when I do.

I didn't get a chance to respond, but I would have said the same thing. I don't think the numbers you are dealing with are in th realm of overkill and the extra headroom is nice .

 

[Spike]

I think I'll go for the Parasound Halo A51--I know a lesser powered amp would always create a question in the back of my mind: "How much better would more power sound?"!

Good choice going with the Halo A51. It's been circulated on various forum (audioasylum, avs forum, etc...) that the Halo xx1 series (A51, JC1) have better quality components than the xx2 (A52) or xx3 (A23) series. The circuitry are similar, designed by the legendary John Curl, but components differ.

 

[Hocky]

Frankly, I think that very few people could ever reliably pick out 2 competent amps that are not being pushed beyond their head room capabilities in a blind test. Most amps sound more similar than different when used in their limits and if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken. Differences definitely exist, but as long as they're capability of handling the load the speakers are giving them, they're subtle. When you start to explore the outer limits of the power cabilities of an amp or compare direct coupled amps with output transformer amps, you will find some differences for sure.

 

[tsv_1]

Frankly, I think that very few people could ever reliably pick out 2 competent amps that are not being pushed beyond their head room capabilities in a blind test. Most amps sound more similar than different when used in their limits and if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken. Differences definitely exist, but as long as they're capability of handling the load the speakers are giving them, they're subtle. When you start to explore the outer limits of the power cabilities of an amp or compare direct coupled amps with output transformer amps, you will find some differences for sure.

Very much in line with Roger Sander's mindset... it's only when operating amps outside their designed operating range that they begin to show significant individuality. That said, his other assertion (which I completely agree with) is that people routinely underpower their speakers. Proper recreation of transient peaks takes a lot of power (not to mention proper supply design to quickly recover from those peaks).

 

[Bernard]

Same thing for me. My 80w(8ohm)/120w(4ohm) Monarchy amp sounds a lot better than my Emotiva 200w(8ohm)/350w(4ohm) amp. Sound quality depends more on the amp design and power supply than the mere wattage/power rating.

Me too. I used to have a tube 50W/ch Copland driving my MLs, and borrowed a SS 100W/ch Copland from my ML dealer. The loan was for a week, but I took back the amp after 2 days. The dealer laughed when he saw me coming back with the loaner (he likes tubes too). OTOH my 100 W/ch tube ARC monoblocks blew away the Copland, on more than just headroom.

 

[twich54]

Oh what the heck ......I might as well throw my two cents in........ while I won't say my Rogue M-150 monoblocks blow away my Plinius SA-102, it's just that I do LOVE the midrange of the Rogue's, thus they get the majority of run time. FWIW, I will be taking them up to Mark Obrien (Head Honcho, Rogue) in the near future to upgrade to 'M-180' status.

 

[Spike]

Hocky,

Most amps sound more similar than different when used in their limits and if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken. Differences definitely exist, but as long as they're capability of handling the load the speakers are giving them, they're subtle.

Another over-generalization statement which I have problems with... Let's set the stage to define that the system is operating within their limits. Let's say that I listen at moderate levels (around 80db or so), late at night around 2am where things are quiet, and let's say that I have efficient speakers hovering around 94db. If I have 2 amps: Pass Aleph 30 (30wpc) and another 300wpc juggernaut, I am very certain that both will operate well within their limits. Now, if the 300wpc amp exhibits a higher noise floor vs the Pass which is dead quiet, do you consider them to sound similar or different? I know for a fact that the higher noise floor will bug the hell out of me and I consider that a huge difference! How does this example factor into your premise of comparing amplifiers' load handling capabilities?

 

[tsv_1]

Hocky,

Another over-generalization statement which I have problems with... Let's set the stage to define that the system is operating within their limits. Let's say that I listen at moderate levels (around 80db or so), late at night around 2am where things are quiet, and let's say that I have efficient speakers hovering around 94db. If I have 2 amps: Pass Aleph 30 (30wpc) and another 300wpc juggernaut, I am very certain that both will operate well within their limits. Now, if the 300wpc amp exhibits a higher noise floor vs the Pass which is dead quiet, do you consider them to sound similar or different? I know for a fact that the higher noise floor will bug the hell out of me and I consider that a huge difference! How does this example factor into your premise of comparing amplifiers' load handling capabilities?

But isn't your example Spike already covered to some degree by Hocky's statement "if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken"... I would consider an amp with audible self-noise at the listening position to be poorly designed.

 

[Spike]

But isn't your example Spike already covered to some degree by Hocky's statement "if they don't, they're poorly designed or broken"... I would consider an amp with audible self-noise at the listening position to be poorly designed.

I was merely pointing out what's considered "subtle" for one listener may be a huge glaring annoyance to another. This is subjective and may not have anything to do with the design of the amp.

 

[Hocky]

If the noise floor on any amp is bad enough to be heard from the listening seat, that amp needs to be returned and didn't fit under my pretense of competent amps. For what it is worth, I have had amps from about $500 to about $10k on my system and only 1 had audible noise from my listening seat. And it was, indeed, broken. haha

 

[Gordon Gray]

With all due respect guys, that's why there is no right answer to this question.

As Spike and Dave said, it's all subjective and, in the end, a matter of personal bias / taste.

GG

 

[tsv_1]

With all due respect guys, that's why there is no right answer to this question.

As Spike and Dave said, it's all subjective and, in the end, a matter of personal bias / taste.

GG

There's always a right answer... too bad I lean left

 

[MrBT]

REALISM, ACURACY, dynamics, energy of live recording etc...... Spending the $$$$$ on hi-end equipment supposed to bring us closer to recreate it in home environment. Recreate how musicians, artists, sound engineers intended a recording to sound. The truth is if you want REALIZM you need sufficient power. Less efficient speakers (ie Martin Logan) = more power necessary. With usually overenthusiastic speaker efficiency ratings provided by speaker manufacturer lets say by 3db you need double amplifier power to achieve what they promise.

Lets say you want to fit in 55db bracket of dynamic range of recording. Without enough power you'd need to start listening dramatically quiet to not to hear clipping at peaks. One of performances that everybody knows that covers wide dynamic range is Bolero/Ravel. How quietly should you start to listen (at 50db (barely audible)? maybe?)? to not to exhaust a couple hundreds of watts of amplification necessary to cover peaks at 105db? (that of course with average ML speaker sensitivity - not talking about huge high sensitivity speakers with over 100db)
Sitting in about 10th row in center in NY Philharmonics during "Pictures at Exhibition" measured 106db with my SPL meter at peaks. Amplified performance of Pat Metheny 98db at peaks.

I understand it's not necessary to listen at live performance levels all the time but from time to time it's great to crank up the volume and enjoy a recording as you rememberd from live performance you attended.

 

[Spike]

If the noise floor on any amp is bad enough to be heard from the listening seat, that amp needs to be returned and didn't fit under my pretense of competent amps. For what it is worth, I have had amps from about $500 to about $10k on my system and only 1 had audible noise from my listening seat. And it was, indeed, broken. haha

Sorry for the mislead, I was in a rush and kinda shot myself in the foot with this badly worded example. I wanted to mean when one amp has a "blacker" background than another. Let's say that I've had my 300wpc Classe' all these times and it served me well. One day, I put a Pass Aleph 3 into my system for comparison and found that the Aleph has "blacker" background than the Classe'. Does it mean the Classe' is "broken" or "badly designed"? How about the Aleph 3 gives the impression of having more "air" and separation between the sound instruments? Or that there seems to be more immediacy with the Aleph 3 than the Classe'. Again, in my scenario of late night listening about 80-85db, these 2 amps are no where being stressed beyond their limits. If your premise is that they should sound similar within their limits, then why do they exhibit different characteristics? Could it be due to differences in circuit design, careful implementation and component quality? Could it be that what I perceived as a big difference, is in fact a "subtle" difference to someone else?
I think I've posted enough on this subject and I think the OP gets the idea that he's gonna get a wide range of opinions to form his decision. It's up to him to align these opinions with what he's looking for.

 

[MPS]

More is not always better and less than enough is a problem, one should carefully match speaker/amplifier to one's requirements. There are technological limits for example two good quality amplifiers - one with 30W/ch other one with 300W/ch and both having 120dB S/N - higher powered amplifier would produce 10dB more background noise from speakers. It wouldn't matter as long as this noise can't be heard to the listening position, not a likely problem with low/average efficiency speakers like MLs.

Enough power is absolutely necessary for high quality music reproduction but quantity does not directly equal to quality. At a given price point it's much easier to build a high quality low power amplifier than building a higher power amplifier with equal quality that would rise the cost level considerably.