stesom
Well-known member
Lets say money is not an issue, do we have any consesnus on what amp makes the Summits very happy. Just curious what folks have experienced.......Steve
Do we have any consensus on amps for Summits
- Thread starter stesom
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
Some say the Summits are easy to drive. Others say not. What should we believe? I have run my Summits with a 50 watt p/c and the result was surprisingly good. At the moment I'm using a Proceed (125 watts p/c) and that's pretty good too.
I know it doesn't really answer the thread question... But my current and affordable upgrade list at present is:
Krell FBP 300c (used)
Plinius SA 103 (new)
Mark Levinson No. 431 (new) or 432 (used)
I guess cost always rears it's ugly head...
I know it doesn't really answer the thread question... But my current and affordable upgrade list at present is:
Krell FBP 300c (used)
Plinius SA 103 (new)
Mark Levinson No. 431 (new) or 432 (used)
I guess cost always rears it's ugly head...
Joey_V
Well-known member
I dont think the Summits are particularly easy to drive considering they dip to less than 1 ohm as you approach the upper limits of hearing. I have heard from dealers that tubes set them free... have not tried it yet, but am planning on some sort of a Cary 805c monoblocks for the future.
Joey
Joey
From recent posts that I have seen Pass amps seem to be a good match for most ML. I have personal experience with a Proceed Amp 5 and a Rowland 8T, both of which are quite capable of breathtaking performance with Summits. Still others report good sound with Parasound. Many of us seem to like Krell amps and Classe amps. I think it will be difficult to arrive at any sort of consensus since we all have personal preferences when it comes to tonal balance, soundstaging, and imaging. What we can probably all agree on is that quality of watts is more important than quantity of watts and that amps which are capable of driving low impedence work better than those which are not. As for tubes, Audio Research and CJ seem to be the most often mentioned as providing good sound. I have been thinking about my next amp. I am dying to try tubes on my Summits and there are dealers within driving distance for Audio Research, Connie J, McIntosh and Rogue, as well as Atmasphere. I also want to hear a Boulder and an Ayre before I make my decision. What I do know is that I will not buy another Rowland due to an unsatisfactorily resolved service issue with a pair of Rowland monoblocks which occurred a few years ago.
stereoman
Well-known member
Hi:
For the last 6 months I've been on a quest to replace my Classé CA200 amp. The best I've heard so far is the EAR 890 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue9/ear890.htm) combined with my Audio Research LS16 preamp. Later this month I hope to audition some of the lower powered amps from EAR.
For the last 6 months I've been on a quest to replace my Classé CA200 amp. The best I've heard so far is the EAR 890 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue9/ear890.htm) combined with my Audio Research LS16 preamp. Later this month I hope to audition some of the lower powered amps from EAR.
Simply put....there is NO single brand or type of amp that's best. The synergy between room , upstream componetry (impedence matching with pre) and ones personal sonic prefrences are the underlying decision makers in amp selection.
Now with that all being said it's apparent that Pass Labs has tickled quite a few M/L owners, as well as Plinius, BAT and Krell. As for the tube camp my previous preachings have always been about the ABC's.....ARC, BAT, Cary, CJ, and lets not forget Mac ! So there.........not ONE clear cut answer !!!!
Now with that all being said it's apparent that Pass Labs has tickled quite a few M/L owners, as well as Plinius, BAT and Krell. As for the tube camp my previous preachings have always been about the ABC's.....ARC, BAT, Cary, CJ, and lets not forget Mac ! So there.........not ONE clear cut answer !!!!
Last edited:
I think Dave said it best. No single brand or type is best. It all depends on room, system synergy and personal preference. But you most likely can't go wrong with a QUALITY amp from any of the good high end manufacturers.
My own personal experience has been that my Pass Labs X-350.5 sounds great with the Summits, and my Conrad Johnson Premier 140 tube amp sounds even better. I highly recommend going with a quality tubed preamp, and if you like tubes get a tube amp as well.
Just remember that quality usually costs money. Be prepared to spend at least as much on your pre and amp together as you did on your speakers (and I'm talking about buying used at a discount).
My own personal experience has been that my Pass Labs X-350.5 sounds great with the Summits, and my Conrad Johnson Premier 140 tube amp sounds even better. I highly recommend going with a quality tubed preamp, and if you like tubes get a tube amp as well.
Just remember that quality usually costs money. Be prepared to spend at least as much on your pre and amp together as you did on your speakers (and I'm talking about buying used at a discount).
stesom
Well-known member
Thats why I stayed away from asking best since that is subjective. So I was looking more toward what most people had decided worked for them as sort of a poll.
I am running an ARC Ref-3 into a Classe CA-400. But I have been bitten severely by the upgrade bug. Since the Classe is over 8 years old I figure that might be the next place to go.
I am going to bring home ATMA-SPHERE MA1 MK2V3s next week as well as listen to the ARC Ref 210s and the big Mcintosh 2100 on the Summits. But a lot of folks seem really happy with PASS and PLINIUS which are within the price range so lots of choices. Maybe for the first time in my life too many choices!!!
......Steve
I am running an ARC Ref-3 into a Classe CA-400. But I have been bitten severely by the upgrade bug. Since the Classe is over 8 years old I figure that might be the next place to go.
I am going to bring home ATMA-SPHERE MA1 MK2V3s next week as well as listen to the ARC Ref 210s and the big Mcintosh 2100 on the Summits. But a lot of folks seem really happy with PASS and PLINIUS which are within the price range so lots of choices. Maybe for the first time in my life too many choices!!!
......Steve
Joey_V
Well-known member
Maybe for the first time in my life too many choices!!!
Hey Steve,
Maybe that's a GOOD thing!
Be glad that you can choose between hi-fi amps, my friend. We're all lucky that we have the basics of life taken cared of (and let's keep it this way) so we can spend some time on the luxuries of things.
That said, I've heard your Classe 400 and it was beastly. Perhaps it's time to sit back and relax a little.... you're at a pretty high level already. Next up, I would start looking at the Plinius Reference, the Pass X160 and above (full Class A), Krell Evolutions, the Cary top end monobocks (805C and above), Macs, Bat V600...
eknuds01
Well-known member
There will never be a consensus. The main reason why is that there over 100decent companies that make high end amps (perhaps way more than 100). With that said, it's nearly impossible to audition, or even actually listen to, many of these brands.
Some stores might carry Classe, Rotel, and Conrad Johnson, and then you might have to drive 200 miles away just to listen to Mark Levinson, Krell, or Sunfire. In other words, some people's preferences are certainly influenced by the availibility of the amps. This is not the same when it comes to things like cars. If you want to test drive a 4 door sedan, chances are you won't have to go very far to drive a Chevy, Ford, Honda, Hundai, Toyota, GM, etc. Often the dealerships are next to each other on the same street.
However, if you look at the member systems threads, you will find some trends. Lots of people here like Rotel, B&K, Classe, Sunfire, etc.
So take your time and trust your ears! You'll find a good combination eventually!
Erik
Some stores might carry Classe, Rotel, and Conrad Johnson, and then you might have to drive 200 miles away just to listen to Mark Levinson, Krell, or Sunfire. In other words, some people's preferences are certainly influenced by the availibility of the amps. This is not the same when it comes to things like cars. If you want to test drive a 4 door sedan, chances are you won't have to go very far to drive a Chevy, Ford, Honda, Hundai, Toyota, GM, etc. Often the dealerships are next to each other on the same street.
However, if you look at the member systems threads, you will find some trends. Lots of people here like Rotel, B&K, Classe, Sunfire, etc.
So take your time and trust your ears! You'll find a good combination eventually!
Erik
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
The eternal question of "what is best"
Dave,
I think we've had this discussion before, most recently with interconnects if I recall correctly. That is not to say that it is a bad discussion but ultimately unfullfilling given the "subjective" nature of the topic.
I agree with you 100%.
GG
Dave,
I think we've had this discussion before, most recently with interconnects if I recall correctly. That is not to say that it is a bad discussion but ultimately unfullfilling given the "subjective" nature of the topic.
I agree with you 100%.
GG
Last edited:
Steve,
Given that you have the ARC Ref 3, I think you can do better than the Classe. Just my opinion, of course. I think you are on the right track with the brands you are planning to audition. The McIntosh 275 tubed monoblocs have also gotten good reviews from members of this site. For solid state, you might also consider the Mcintosh 501's. I also think you would be very happy with either Pass Labs or Plinius.
As for Pass Labs, I don't think the XA series mates well with ML electrostatics. They are pure class A, which is nice, but they are really designed for an eight ohm load and don't provide any extra wattage into lower impedences. The X.5 series on the other hand, will double it's wattage into a four ohm load. When I discussed my situation with the folks at Pass, they recommended the X.5 series over the XA series. I have never had this confirmed though, because I haven't been able to talk to anyone that has used the XA series with ML's.
Good Luck in your search.
Given that you have the ARC Ref 3, I think you can do better than the Classe. Just my opinion, of course. I think you are on the right track with the brands you are planning to audition. The McIntosh 275 tubed monoblocs have also gotten good reviews from members of this site. For solid state, you might also consider the Mcintosh 501's. I also think you would be very happy with either Pass Labs or Plinius.
As for Pass Labs, I don't think the XA series mates well with ML electrostatics. They are pure class A, which is nice, but they are really designed for an eight ohm load and don't provide any extra wattage into lower impedences. The X.5 series on the other hand, will double it's wattage into a four ohm load. When I discussed my situation with the folks at Pass, they recommended the X.5 series over the XA series. I have never had this confirmed though, because I haven't been able to talk to anyone that has used the XA series with ML's.
Good Luck in your search.
Let's talk about the BIG difference
between the Summits (and Vantages) and all previous ML speakers (not counting the CLS).
But first some background. Stats are highly articulate and accurate transducers of an audio signal into the air. We all know this. I never EVER heard anyone say, "Gosh, that's a lousy sounding electrostat!" The signal you feed them is what they'll put into the air. They may do other things with varying degrees of success, but they WILL accurately put your signal into the air.
And electostatic panels don't require a lot of power! The original Quad ESL 57 did quite well with the original Quad 15W/ch power amp. Electostatic panels do require good current delivery when their impedance drops. Some amps (SS or tube) can do this, some amps crap out. Tube amps, because tubes turn on and off slowly, like a light bulb, preserve the delicate nuances in the signal as they hand the signal off between tubes in a typical "push-pull" amplifier circuit. Transistors turn on and off so fast, that those little nuances can literally "fall through the cracks" as one transistor shuts off and its counterpart turns on. For a LOT of money ($37,000 for a darTZeel) you can find SS amps that don't drop the subtleties, but most (including all our favorites) do it to some degree. Tube amps do not ADD warmth to the signal! Rather, they easily PRESERVE the subtler qualities of the signal: microdynamics, low level detail, timbre, decay, without the expenditure of megabucks on a highly refined SS amp.
With the previous ML models, you had two amp choices:
1. SS if you were going to use just one amp (or one pair of monoblocks) because you can't accurately drive woofers with tubes.
2. Or, if you were willing (and could afford) to bi-amp, you could use a SS for the woofers, and a tube amp for the panels. Requires twice the amps and cabling, but is a workable approach.
Now, with the Summit, and the Vantage, ML has finally provided a hybrid that's user-friendly. They come "pre-biamped". The customer just adds the panel amp, which as I explained above, there's every reason to make a tube amp. In my view, driving one of these speakers with a big gun SS amp is a waste of money and good sound. And tube amps are natural current producing champs, so even though they generally aren't big on power (not needed anyway) they're just what an electrostat needs.
Yes they run a little hotter, and tubes need to be replaced every 4000 to 10,000 hours. But your electostats will deliver sound like no other speakers can.
between the Summits (and Vantages) and all previous ML speakers (not counting the CLS).
But first some background. Stats are highly articulate and accurate transducers of an audio signal into the air. We all know this. I never EVER heard anyone say, "Gosh, that's a lousy sounding electrostat!" The signal you feed them is what they'll put into the air. They may do other things with varying degrees of success, but they WILL accurately put your signal into the air.
And electostatic panels don't require a lot of power! The original Quad ESL 57 did quite well with the original Quad 15W/ch power amp. Electostatic panels do require good current delivery when their impedance drops. Some amps (SS or tube) can do this, some amps crap out. Tube amps, because tubes turn on and off slowly, like a light bulb, preserve the delicate nuances in the signal as they hand the signal off between tubes in a typical "push-pull" amplifier circuit. Transistors turn on and off so fast, that those little nuances can literally "fall through the cracks" as one transistor shuts off and its counterpart turns on. For a LOT of money ($37,000 for a darTZeel) you can find SS amps that don't drop the subtleties, but most (including all our favorites
) do it to some degree. Tube amps do not ADD warmth to the signal! Rather, they easily PRESERVE the subtler qualities of the signal: microdynamics, low level detail, timbre, decay, without the expenditure of megabucks on a highly refined SS amp.With the previous ML models, you had two amp choices:
1. SS if you were going to use just one amp (or one pair of monoblocks) because you can't accurately drive woofers with tubes.
2. Or, if you were willing (and could afford) to bi-amp, you could use a SS for the woofers, and a tube amp for the panels. Requires twice the amps and cabling, but is a workable approach.
Now, with the Summit, and the Vantage, ML has finally provided a hybrid that's user-friendly. They come "pre-biamped". The customer just adds the panel amp, which as I explained above, there's every reason to make a tube amp. In my view, driving one of these speakers with a big gun SS amp is a waste of money and good sound. And tube amps are natural current producing champs, so even though they generally aren't big on power (not needed anyway) they're just what an electrostat needs.
Yes they run a little hotter, and tubes need to be replaced every 4000 to 10,000 hours. But your electostats will deliver sound like no other speakers can.
eknuds01
Well-known member
between the Summits (and Vantages) and all previous ML speakers (not counting the CLS).
But first some background. Stats are highly articulate and accurate transducers of an audio signal into the air. We all know this. I never EVER heard anyone say, "Gosh, that's a lousy sounding electrostat!" The signal you feed them is what they'll put into the air. They may do other things with varying degrees of success, but they WILL accurately put your signal into the air.
And electostatic panels don't require a lot of power! The original Quad ESL 57 did quite well with the original Quad 15W/ch power amp. Electostatic panels do require good current delivery when their impedance drops. Some amps (SS or tube) can do this, some amps crap out. Tube amps, because tubes turn on and off slowly, like a light bulb, preserve the delicate nuances in the signal as they hand the signal off between tubes in a typical "push-pull" amplifier circuit. Transistors turn on and off so fast, that those little nuances can literally "fall through the cracks" as one transistor shuts off and its counterpart turns on. For a LOT of money ($37,000 for a darTZeel) you can find SS amps that don't drop the subtleties, but most (including all our favorites
With the previous ML models, you had two amp choices:
1. SS if you were going to use just one amp (or one pair of monoblocks) because you can't accurately drive woofers with tubes.
2. Or, if you were willing (and could afford) to bi-amp, you could use a SS for the woofers, and a tube amp for the panels. Requires twice the amps and cabling, but is a workable approach.
Now, with the Summit, and the Vantage, ML has finally provided a hybrid that's user-friendly. They come "pre-biamped". The customer just adds the panel amp, which as I explained above, there's every reason to make a tube amp. In my view, driving one of these speakers with a big gun SS amp is a waste of money and good sound. And tube amps are natural current producing champs, so even though they generally aren't big on power (not needed anyway) they're just what an electrostat needs.
Yes they run a little hotter, and tubes need to be replaced every 4000 to 10,000 hours. But your electostats will deliver sound like no other speakers can.
Here! Here! Great post!
Since pure Class A SS amps produce the entire waveform without the 180 degree characteristics of 'push-pull' (transistor handoff) I believe they offer a very REAL alternative to 'Tube' power.
Besides when it comes to Pure Class A amplification , when one does crave and or need extra power a SS amp can do so for less $$$.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
my three cents
Here we go again with the preverbial question of what is best, what is a waste, etc.
IMHO, discussions like this have no "OBJECTIVE" validity because it "ALL COMES DOWN TO PERSONAL / SUBJECTIVE PREFERENCE".
I previously auditioned a VTL ST150 amp and ultimately found it somewhat boring and unengaging. I am positive there are folks out there that love / swear by this amp and I'm glad that it rings their bell, but for me, it simply didn't produce the sonic signature that I prefer, given my personal biases.
One can claim that tubes more accurately produce the musical waveform or that a Class A SS amp goes where no amp has gone before. Frankly, I don't care because we all have our own ears and those silly things on the side of our head tell us what sounds good or vice versa.
Maybe I feel this way because I am not a "techie" nor do I want to be. I trust my hearing to determine whether I want to buy a piece of gear or not.
After auditioning the VTL, I gave the Pass Labs 250.5 a test drive. I absolutely love what it does. I don't know if this amp falls into the "big gun SS amp" genre but I don't care. For me, it was / is "not a waste of money or good sound". It's actually the total opposite.
So, I humbly request that we try to stay away from the "what is best" discussion because it falls into the never ending "subjective black hole category" given our personal biases, equipment budget /synergy, and, of course, the most influencial item of all, THE ROOM.
Respectfully submitted,
GG
between the Summits (and Vantages) and all previous ML speakers (not counting the CLS).
But first some background. Stats are highly articulate and accurate transducers of an audio signal into the air. We all know this. I never EVER heard anyone say, "Gosh, that's a lousy sounding electrostat!" The signal you feed them is what they'll put into the air. They may do other things with varying degrees of success, but they WILL accurately put your signal into the air.
And electostatic panels don't require a lot of power! The original Quad ESL 57 did quite well with the original Quad 15W/ch power amp. Electostatic panels do require good current delivery when their impedance drops. Some amps (SS or tube) can do this, some amps crap out. Tube amps, because tubes turn on and off slowly, like a light bulb, preserve the delicate nuances in the signal as they hand the signal off between tubes in a typical "push-pull" amplifier circuit. Transistors turn on and off so fast, that those little nuances can literally "fall through the cracks" as one transistor shuts off and its counterpart turns on. For a LOT of money ($37,000 for a darTZeel) you can find SS amps that don't drop the subtleties, but most (including all our favorites
With the previous ML models, you had two amp choices:
1. SS if you were going to use just one amp (or one pair of monoblocks) because you can't accurately drive woofers with tubes.
2. Or, if you were willing (and could afford) to bi-amp, you could use a SS for the woofers, and a tube amp for the panels. Requires twice the amps and cabling, but is a workable approach.
Now, with the Summit, and the Vantage, ML has finally provided a hybrid that's user-friendly. They come "pre-biamped". The customer just adds the panel amp, which as I explained above, there's every reason to make a tube amp. In my view, driving one of these speakers with a big gun SS amp is a waste of money and good sound. And tube amps are natural current producing champs, so even though they generally aren't big on power (not needed anyway) they're just what an electrostat needs.
Yes they run a little hotter, and tubes need to be replaced every 4000 to 10,000 hours. But your electostats will deliver sound like no other speakers can.
Here we go again with the preverbial question of what is best, what is a waste, etc.
IMHO, discussions like this have no "OBJECTIVE" validity because it "ALL COMES DOWN TO PERSONAL / SUBJECTIVE PREFERENCE".
I previously auditioned a VTL ST150 amp and ultimately found it somewhat boring and unengaging. I am positive there are folks out there that love / swear by this amp and I'm glad that it rings their bell, but for me, it simply didn't produce the sonic signature that I prefer, given my personal biases.
One can claim that tubes more accurately produce the musical waveform or that a Class A SS amp goes where no amp has gone before. Frankly, I don't care because we all have our own ears and those silly things on the side of our head tell us what sounds good or vice versa.
Maybe I feel this way because I am not a "techie" nor do I want to be. I trust my hearing to determine whether I want to buy a piece of gear or not.
After auditioning the VTL, I gave the Pass Labs 250.5 a test drive. I absolutely love what it does. I don't know if this amp falls into the "big gun SS amp" genre but I don't care. For me, it was / is "not a waste of money or good sound". It's actually the total opposite.
So, I humbly request that we try to stay away from the "what is best" discussion because it falls into the never ending "subjective black hole category" given our personal biases, equipment budget /synergy, and, of course, the most influencial item of all, THE ROOM.
Respectfully submitted,
GG
I agree with Gordon that all of these answers are very subjective and we should understand that any thread like this is more about opinion than fact. For instance, Nsgarch makes some very sweeping statements in his post, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't. In my opinion, it is inaccurate to state something like: "tubes are best for sound on the panels of Summits or Vantages," (to paraphrase) because it doesn't take into account room size, system setup, type of music, or (most importantly) individual personal taste.
Not to mention that every amp, tube or solid state, is different and will impart a different sonic signature on the Logans. For instance, I love the sound of my CJ tube amp on the Summits, but I have heard these speakers with a Jolida tube amp and it produced way too many harmonic overtones and just didn't sound right to me. So to say "tubes are best" is a generalization that is just not always accurate. Gordon provided another example of this.
Also, to say that high power solid state amps is a waste of power and money on a Summit or Vantage is also an over-broad generalization that I tend to disagree with. If you listen to very dynamic music, in a large room at high spls, that extra power may be absolutely necessary to the sonic signature you are looking for. As nsgarch said, electrostats are painfully revealing, and when that amp starts to run out of power on the dynamic transients, you will hear it.
Is anyone on this forum running Summits or Vantages with less than 100 wpc of solid state power or less than 20 wpc of tube power (with satisfactory results)? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it isn't very common and I think there is a reason. These speakers need a little more power than you think to perform adequately for most people. Again, this may vary depending on type of music, size of room, other components, and what the individual is looking for in music reproduction. The point I am making is these are not horn speakers and are not likely to reproduce dynamics properly with a 15 wpc amp. They have a 92 db sensitivity, not 100+.
I think we should be careful of making sweeping generalizations and presenting them as fact, when in fact they are really our own opinions, based mostly on our own experiences in our own systems and with our own ears and personal biases. Don't get me wrong. I still think there is great merit in having the discussion, so that we can all learn from each others experience and ideas. But I would merely point out that much of what we believe as fact is really just personal opinion and every generalization will have a hundred exceptions.
But of course, all of this is just my personal opinion. YMMV.
Not to mention that every amp, tube or solid state, is different and will impart a different sonic signature on the Logans. For instance, I love the sound of my CJ tube amp on the Summits, but I have heard these speakers with a Jolida tube amp and it produced way too many harmonic overtones and just didn't sound right to me. So to say "tubes are best" is a generalization that is just not always accurate. Gordon provided another example of this.
Also, to say that high power solid state amps is a waste of power and money on a Summit or Vantage is also an over-broad generalization that I tend to disagree with. If you listen to very dynamic music, in a large room at high spls, that extra power may be absolutely necessary to the sonic signature you are looking for. As nsgarch said, electrostats are painfully revealing, and when that amp starts to run out of power on the dynamic transients, you will hear it.
Is anyone on this forum running Summits or Vantages with less than 100 wpc of solid state power or less than 20 wpc of tube power (with satisfactory results)? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it isn't very common and I think there is a reason. These speakers need a little more power than you think to perform adequately for most people. Again, this may vary depending on type of music, size of room, other components, and what the individual is looking for in music reproduction. The point I am making is these are not horn speakers and are not likely to reproduce dynamics properly with a 15 wpc amp. They have a 92 db sensitivity, not 100+.
I think we should be careful of making sweeping generalizations and presenting them as fact, when in fact they are really our own opinions, based mostly on our own experiences in our own systems and with our own ears and personal biases. Don't get me wrong. I still think there is great merit in having the discussion, so that we can all learn from each others experience and ideas. But I would merely point out that much of what we believe as fact is really just personal opinion and every generalization will have a hundred exceptions.
But of course, all of this is just my personal opinion. YMMV.
