I blew up Vista drivers and now do i upgrade to Sumit X or B&W 800?

[sound]

Hi All,

I am new member to this forum, i have a pair of ML for 2 years now, my current System is :-

SPEAKERS
2 x Martin Logan Model vista ESL Series 20-400watts per channel
3 x Martin Logan’s Model Motif 20-300 watts per channel (1 center + 2 side)
2 x Martin Logan sub-woofer Model Abyss 300 watts

PROCESSOR
ONKYO PRSC-5508 (was using ARCAM AVR 350 and just upgraded)

AMP
Lexicon RX 7

I was using for past 2 years above with ARCAM receiver AVR 350 and recently decided to upgrade to PRE AMP from Onkyo PRSC-5508 and AMP of Lexicon RX 7, and within 2 hrs. of upgrade I blew the VISTA drivers.

As i received the preamp before the Lexicon dealer gave me GX7 (floor demo) till my RX 7 was received, so i connected and within few hrs. blew the drivers of vista.

I think one of the vista driver was already slightly damaged and once i connected the Lexicon GX7 and cranked up the volume the old damage was evident and got enhanced and eventually became unlistenable, the 2nd vista driver also started to make funny sound , i sent it in to the dealer who recommended change both drivers.

Now my question :
1) As GX7 is rated 125watts and vista 400watts even at max volume with GX7 how can i blow the vista drivers ? is this normal ? or did i abuse /shock speakers by cranking them with max volume with GX 7 ?

2) Are the vista drivers under warranty should the dealer replace them free or charge me, (Local ML and Lexicon delaer is same) but he says any speaker can be blown with any amp as that depends on volume level and type of music, so the dealer quoted me US$ 1000/ to replace both drivers.

3) Once the new drivers are installed in Vista do i have to run them in to break them, i have read in several forums contradictory opinions for running in speakers as some are opinon that these high end speakers dont need running in (speakes not like a car engine, speakers made to high specs and dont change sound)
but ML dealer suggest min. 7 days running in, if i should run them in then what music should i run them in with ?

4) The most important questions, as now i have upgraded to
Lexicon RX 7 200 watts per channel with
Onkyo PRSC 5508 and
vista 400 watts,
Should i be upgrading the speakers also to summit X?
I ask you guys your opinion as the local dealer cannot demo the summit x and he says buy them on their reputation and reviews and bcs i have enjoyed vista for past 2 years t.f i love electrostat!!! :-(
The ML dealer suggested upgrade front speakers to Summit X in place of Vista and use vista as side speakers (make my setup from 5.2 to 7.2).
As i cannot demo summit x my question will summit x make a big difference in sound? will lexicon RX 7 have enough power to have a noticeable difference between Vista and Summit X and are vista ideal speakers for side ? or i will use VISTA better in another room.

5) And last question i was out auditioning speakers and came across B&W 800 diamond, quite liked the sound, and as i cannot compare sound with Summit X as can’t get a demo of summit x now i am leaning to go for B&W 800 as at least i can hear them and "hearing is believing" and B&W dealer is even willing to give demo at my house and says B&W 800 will make a big difference in my current setup over vista and if i also upgarde my onkyo pre amp to rotel the sound qulaity will improve 10 times.

So my question what do you guys think should i be ordering summit x without demo or buy B&W 800 which i have heard and are B&W 800 comparable to Summit x and if so which are better in reviews and in your opinon? or what are pro and cons ( i loved vista as the sound was amazing with all music).
And should i be already thinking of upgarding Pre amp from onkyo to Rotel,
i bought onkyon for 1 or 2 years till Lexicon or some other good brand came up with similar spec amp (with upscaling, 2 hdmi out etc) so i was always prepared to upgade but should i be upgarding so soon 2 months will rotel make a big diffrence?

I usually listen on my system all types of music from 80's pop, rock, and crank it once every month for partying with friends with club mixes and house, and use the system as surround for movies with arge screen.

Would really apprecaite your replies and opinons so i can learn from your experience as i am fairly new at this, and am really confused, i wanted to upgarde the sound but now seems i am changing my system and not just upgarding.....and get different sales pitch from dealers here......thanks boys....

 

[tsv_1]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

WRT cranking up a typical solid state amp to maximum... you will inevitably generate some clipping as the signal exceeds the rail maximum. This clipping is inherently high frequency in nature (usually HF odd harmonics)... high frequency drivers are quite sensitive to this HF junk and many a tweeter has been sacrificed to the Gods of Distortion (sounds like a great name for a metal band ) when the volume is turned up to eleven.

Based on your comments, I'm guessing this phenomenon may have played some part in the parting-of-ways between your Vistas and appropriate operation.

On your question about Summit-X, I owned them and they are incredible! There is, IMHO, a very significant delta in performance between the Summit-X and virtually any other ML speaker in the current line-up - except the CLX and a really well dialed in Summit (non-X).

If it were me (and I guess it was me a year or so ago), I would invest in the Summit-X and enjoy their breath-taking sound. But be careful with cranking a limited power amplifier. It may be rated for 200W, but those ratings are often b.s. (could be that it's really just 200W peak for some number of milliseconds etc etc).

Cheers and good luck as you consider your options on the road to ML audio nirvana

 

[tabascocat1994]

Sound:

Your dealer is a crook. ML sells the drivers for $80/ea. They will provide directions and walk you through the install. It is not that hard. I have done it a half dozen times, b/c I too blew out drivers.

The Vista's drivers are crap in my opinion. For $80/ea, you get what you pay for. Maybe the panel can take 400W, but the drivers cannot. I blew them consistently with 75% power from an Anthem A2 225W SS and Theta Digital Enterprise monoblocks 350W SS. The Vista always seem to need to be a little louder. I listen at concert levels. MLs sound better that way IMO.

I recently upgraded to ML Summit X (mostly because of the blown speaker problem). No problem with the Xs because of independent internal amps drive a much better driver. I still stick to my 75% power rule because I assume most distortion from amps will come through the last 25%. Maybe an erroneous assumption, but I live by it.

Summit X are much better speakers. $10K better? No, but if you have the money why not. You may also look at the Vantage. It has internal amps too.

 

[rasmaudio]

Hi All,

I am new member to this forum, i have a pair of ML for 2 years now, my current System is :-

SPEAKERS
2 x Martin Logan Model vista ESL Series 20-400watts per channel
3 x Martin Logan’s Model Motif 20-300 watts per channel (1 center + 2 side)
2 x Martin Logan sub-woofer Model Abyss 300 watts

PROCESSOR
ONKYO PRSC-5508 (was using ARCAM AVR 350 and just upgraded)

AMP
Lexicon RX 7

I was using for past 2 years above with ARCAM receiver AVR 350 and recently decided to upgrade to PRE AMP from Onkyo PRSC-5508 and AMP of Lexicon RX 7, and within 2 hrs. of upgrade I blew the VISTA drivers.

As i received the preamp before the Lexicon dealer gave me GX7 (floor demo) till my RX 7 was received, so i connected and within few hrs. blew the drivers of vista.

I think one of the vista driver was already slightly damaged and once i connected the Lexicon GX7 and cranked up the volume the old damage was evident and got enhanced and eventually became unlistenable, the 2nd vista driver also started to make funny sound , i sent it in to the dealer who recommended change both drivers.

Now my question :
1) As GX7 is rated 125watts and vista 400watts even at max volume with GX7 how can i blow the vista drivers ? is this normal ? or did i abuse /shock speakers by cranking them with max volume with GX 7 ?

2) Are the vista drivers under warranty should the dealer replace them free or charge me, (Local ML and Lexicon delaer is same) but he says any speaker can be blown with any amp as that depends on volume level and type of music, so the dealer quoted me US$ 1000/ to replace both drivers.

3) Once the new drivers are installed in Vista do i have to run them in to break them, i have read in several forums contradictory opinions for running in speakers as some are opinon that these high end speakers dont need running in (speakes not like a car engine, speakers made to high specs and dont change sound)
but ML dealer suggest min. 7 days running in, if i should run them in then what music should i run them in with ?

4) The most important questions, as now i have upgraded to
Lexicon RX 7 200 watts per channel with
Onkyo PRSC 5508 and
vista 400 watts,
Should i be upgrading the speakers also to summit X?
I ask you guys your opinion as the local dealer cannot demo the summit x and he says buy them on their reputation and reviews and bcs i have enjoyed vista for past 2 years t.f i love electrostat!!! :-(
The ML dealer suggested upgrade front speakers to Summit X in place of Vista and use vista as side speakers (make my setup from 5.2 to 7.2).
As i cannot demo summit x my question will summit x make a big difference in sound? will lexicon RX 7 have enough power to have a noticeable difference between Vista and Summit X and are vista ideal speakers for side ? or i will use VISTA better in another room.

5) And last question i was out auditioning speakers and came across B&W 800 diamond, quite liked the sound, and as i cannot compare sound with Summit X as can’t get a demo of summit x now i am leaning to go for B&W 800 as at least i can hear them and "hearing is believing" and B&W dealer is even willing to give demo at my house and says B&W 800 will make a big difference in my current setup over vista and if i also upgarde my onkyo pre amp to rotel the sound qulaity will improve 10 times.

So my question what do you guys think should i be ordering summit x without demo or buy B&W 800 which i have heard and are B&W 800 comparable to Summit x and if so which are better in reviews and in your opinon? or what are pro and cons ( i loved vista as the sound was amazing with all music).
And should i be already thinking of upgarding Pre amp from onkyo to Rotel,
i bought onkyon for 1 or 2 years till Lexicon or some other good brand came up with similar spec amp (with upscaling, 2 hdmi out etc) so i was always prepared to upgade but should i be upgarding so soon 2 months will rotel make a big diffrence?

I usually listen on my system all types of music from 80's pop, rock, and crank it once every month for partying with friends with club mixes and house, and use the system as surround for movies with arge screen.

Would really apprecaite your replies and opinons so i can learn from your experience as i am fairly new at this, and am really confused, i wanted to upgarde the sound but now seems i am changing my system and not just upgarding.....and get different sales pitch from dealers here......thanks boys....

I have had the Martin Logan Summits for 2 years and
they are awesome sounding. With the right acoustics
and amplifier, they are stunning in low level detail,
imaging and extremely transparent. I use a Arcam
AVR600 to drive these speakers, but the bass
drivers on the Summits are not being used. I much
prefer my Magneplanar Tympani IV bass panels,
because they provide much better coherency and
depth, being a dipole speaker like the Summits.
The mid to low bass on the Summits, while not bad,
does not have enough impact and depth.

 

[MrBT]

It looks like Vista blown drivers are pretty common issue. I'll be replacing the drivers pretty soon for the THIRD time. I usually listen to classic at 95db peaks, as measured. This speakers can not reach "realistic" sound levels or driver damage will occur.

 

[sound]

As you changed drivers thrice, did you have to break them in or run in them each time if so how and for how long and with what type of music?

 

[twich54]

It looks like Vista blown drivers are pretty common issue. I'll be replacing the drivers pretty soon for the THIRD time.

I would not be surprised that the Chinese origin of that speaker might have something to do with that ????

 

[Rich]

Sound:

Your dealer is a crook. ML sells the drivers for $80/ea. They will provide directions and walk you through the install.

Not to mention the fact that if these speakers are only two years old, they are still under warranty and the obviously defective drivers should be replaced by the dealer for free. I think I would have some harsh words with this dealer if I were you.

 

[Bernard]

I think I would have some harsh words with this dealer if I were you.

Take it one step further and advise ML that the dealer is trying to screw you.

 

[slowGEEZR]

One thing I think should be mentioned, is that you are more likely to blow speakers with lower powered amps than higher powered amps, due to clipping, trying to get the volume. Clipping is not all that benign, as the peaks can be up to 10 times the rated output of the amp! That can definitely blow a speaker!

 

[Bernard]

One thing I think should be mentioned, is that you are more likely to blow speakers with lower powered amps than higher powered amps, due to clipping, trying to get the volume. Clipping is not all that benign, as the peaks can be up to 10 times the rated output of the amp! That can definitely blow a speaker!

Yup, clipping of a SS amp is the same as feeding D.C. to a speaker.

 

[sound]

MLS vs. B N W

Just to thank all of you who responded to my post and update you on outcome:-

1) ML delaer after reading these posts and your replies reduced the repair for
vista drivers to 50% or US$ 430, which still steep for actual cost of US$ 96 paid by dealer to ML, but add fed ex cost as i am in Dubai and intsall, so i offered dealer to reduce to US$ 350 and guess will settle on that, waiting for him to confirm.

2) Reg Speakers as could not still audition Summit X so i think will upgarde to BnW 802 diamond, even though local ML delaer said he will have summit x shortly but as no date is fixed dont know if i shoudl wait.
But as i listen to lot of DJ mixes (lot of low freq/bass) i think Bnw are more suitable for this sort of music then summit x as when i compared vista with Bnw there is obvious difference. What you boyz think wait for summit x audition or upgarde to Bnw 802 diamond....