Dilemma with Ascents, Vantages, and Tubes

[AZ-Dog]

OK my good friends. I have a dilemma at hand. I have been saving for a tube amplifier with wich to play my Ascent speakers. The budget is saved and ready to go. - I am now using a 150 watt/ch (oldie but a goodie) HK Citation 16 to play my ML Ascents. It is a beefy solid state amp of about 60 lbs. with 20 transistors. It has a lot of punch and was designed in an erra where it was supposed to sound like the Mcintosh tube amps of the day eg MC-275. Typically, I get best results using between 2.5 and 10 watts (according to the level meters on the amp) - louder is too loud and lower = loss of detail & realism. Performance in the mids is pretty good. Bass is incredible (although I do not much care for loads of bass). Highs are good - but had to turn trebble up one notch on pre-amp. So, here is the dilemma. To get to that next-level of sound that we all look for: Should I buy a tube amp with which to play my Ascents or perhaps switching to the Vantage speaker might be the better option. Both would cost the same. The question is, given the same amp, would the Vantage sound better or would it be better to put the money into a good tube amp? Here is the key: I am looking for sweet, smooth , delicate, accurate, lifelike sound that extends across the soundstage and way in back of it. Many people describe this using tube amps without having speakers as good as the Ascents. Can I hear some opinions? Maybe someone has made this choice before? Andy

 

[miljac]

If you really want to get out the best from your Ascents, you may try to biamp by leaving the big solid state amp on bass and use a tube amp on panels.
Honestly - any kind of biamping will be an amazing help. I remember having for some time
two 200Wpc solid state amps in biamping and the sound just opened up, could play extremely loud and clean that it was scary.
I've been using tube amps on panels for about 4 or 5 years now and never looked back.
Also, since the warranty on your speakers has expired, why not try modify the crossover? It does not cost a fortune and many members on this forum
have done that, this will bring the loudspeakers to a wholy new level. The Ascent is a magnificent speaker. With Vantage you'd get more of the bass, but this can be improved with subwoofer(s).

I personally like the sound of the old panels more - I believe you should better arrange an audition before doing anything. Considering the age of the Ascent (yours must be about the age of mine) I would also consider buying new panels.

Whatever you decide, one thing remains though: a good tube amp will do wonders to the panels.

 

[Hocky]

It is definitely a personal preference thing. I went from ascent to summit and much preferred the summit in the same room at the same time. Find somewhere to listen to be vantage before making any decisions.

 

[Rich]

If you really want to get out the best from your Ascents, you may try to biamp by leaving the big solid state amp on bass and use a tube amp on panels.
Honestly - any kind of biamping will be an amazing help.

+1 on this. The Ascents perform at their best when Biamped with a good tube amp on the panels and a quality solid state amp on the woofers. Make sure to match the voltage gains of the amps.

 

[Spike]

+2 for bi-amp

I am now using a 150 watt/ch (oldie but a goodie) HK Citation 16 to play my ML Ascents. It is a beefy solid state amp of about 60 lbs. with 20 transistors. It has a lot of punch and was designed in an erra where it was supposed to sound like the Mcintosh tube amps of the day eg MC-275.

The Citation 16 is a good, classic amp for the woofers. When evaluating solid-state amp for the bass, you should look beyond the "bass punch" performance and consider the lower-mid performance as well. Think in terms of lower registers male vocals in the baritone registers hovering around the 150 - 350Hz range. In this case, the Citation 16 will be responsible to reproduce up to 280Hz crossover point and I'd much prefer the classic amplification topology over the newer Class-D design for this task.

To get to that next-level of sound that we all look for: Should I buy a tube amp with which to play my Ascents or perhaps switching to the Vantage speaker might be the better option. Both would cost the same. The question is, given the same amp, would the Vantage sound better or would it be better to put the money into a good tube amp? Here is the key: I am looking for sweet, smooth , delicate, accurate, lifelike sound that extends across the soundstage and way in back of it. Many people describe this using tube amps without having speakers as good as the Ascents. Can I hear some opinions? Maybe someone has made this choice before? Andy

Definitely the bi-amp route with tubes on the panels. One thing you should put on your list after bi-amping is to have the Citation serviced by qualified technician: replacing old caps and bring the amp back to spec. You'd be amazed at what the Citation is capable of.

Spike

 

[roberto]

Hola and agreed with Spike 100%...here is a link that you might like it: http://www.bigskyaudiomt.com/index.php?pr=Harman_Kardon_Citation_16_A
Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[AZ-Dog]

In Reply to you all

Thanks all for some great comments and information. I have biamped the Citation 16 using separate high-end speaker cables to the woofer and panels indpendantly. Interconnects are high-end Monsters (maybe some room to improve there a bit). Today I gave it a really critical listen with good recordings. You know what? It's not bad at all. The only thing is that the Citation may lack a touch of "musicality" or might be a tiny bit harsh. From what I have read from all of you, I would be doing the Ascents an injustice if I didn't get a tube amp to play them with - that is, they would not be used to their full potential. Was surprised anyone knew the Citation 16 amp. I did know about the re-build of the Citation 16 but somehow would rather use the money towards a good tube amp - again, the Citation sounds pretty good right now - especially in the mids. Piano solo today sounded like the piano was in the room. A lot of the sound depends on how good the recordings are too. Some days, you can get a bunch of badly recorded music and then it is simply "garbage in - garbage out". I look at the production of sound as a chain - each component (poer cable, electricity, filter, preamp, amp, cables etc.) being a potential source of weakness or improvement. Heaven help us tweakers that are forever trying to get to that "next level" of good sound - maybe we are never satisfied (but that's maybe a good thing too). Andy

 

[miljac]

Hi Andy,

you did not biamp. For biamping you would need another amplifier in addition to your Citation to power the panels.
I have also tried biwiring (which is what you've done) and it does have some (moderate!) impact on the sound.
But the real breakthrough was adding another amplifier.
Maybe you can arrange to borrow one and try it out.
One of the amplifiers should have variable gain, as Rich said - so that you can match the levels.
If you like what you hear now, you will be amazed what adding an amplifier for the panels can do!

 

[amey01]

Geez - interesting question. I can't help, but the responses are great.

Do you crave a more "valvie" sound? You don't say what your preamp is?

I have found valves on ES panels not so good (or not to my liking anyway). I am a self-confessed ARC fanatic, and I auditioned a VT60 in my system a few years ago. Much to my disdain, it didn't sound as good as the SS options - I ended up settling on the Classé.

Try some valve amps. But maybe you can get what you're after with a valve preamp? And the Vantages. Now you're talking!! And like all true audiophiles, budget blown out a bit!

 

[Bernard]

I have found valves on ES panels not so good (or not to my liking anyway). I am a self-confessed ARC fanatic, and I auditioned a VT60 in my system a few years ago. Much to my disdain, it didn't sound as good as the SS options - I ended up settling on the Classé.

Adam, I used to have a 50 watt/ch Copland tube amplifier (which I bought when I had Quad 57's) to drive my SL3's, and found them lacking in power, so I borrowed a 100 watt/ch Copland SS amp from my ML dealer to try out for a week. The bass was fuller, but overall I did not like the sound, so I took it back after 2 days. When the dealer saw me coming, he laughed and said, "Bernard expects a solid-state amp to be better than a tube amp". BTW, he does not sell ARC, but tells me that the preamp he uses at home is an SP10.

My upgrade to an ARC tube amp at 110 watts/ch was a great step as the combination is perfect, and it goes great with my ARC preamp. Now when are YOU going to get something ARC? :devil:

 

[amey01]

Adam, I used to have a 50 watt/ch Copland tube amplifier (which I bought when I had Quad 57's) to drive my SL3's, and found them lacking in power, so I borrowed a 100 watt/ch Copland SS amp from my ML dealer to try out for a week. The bass was fuller, but overall I did not like the sound, so I took it back after 2 days. When the dealer saw me coming, he laughed and said, "Bernard expects a solid-state amp to be better than a tube amp". BTW, he does not sell ARC, but tells me that the preamp he uses at home is an SP10.

My upgrade to an ARC tube amp at 110 watts/ch was a great step as the combination is perfect, and it goes great with my ARC preamp. Now when are YOU going to get something ARC? :devil:

Are you saying you think the VT-60's problem was that it didn't have enough power? Maybe. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford a pair of REF600s at the time! Damn shame about that.

Just goes to show how you yourself have to audition.

I'm going to Sydney in August - who knows what I might come back with? A new DAC is looking promising, but the DAC 8 will have to sound better than the Naim DAC - it's going to be a tough ask. I also want to audition a PS Audio Perfectwave.

 

[Bernard]

Are you saying you think the VT-60's problem was that it didn't have enough power? Maybe.

Possibly; hard to speculate. Just wanted to relate my experience.

 

[amey01]

Possibly; hard to speculate. Just wanted to relate my experience.

It may well be the case. But don't forget the VT-60 is only 3dB less than yours! Of course, it is a different amp altogether - and yours is better. Who knows?

Two different opinions. I just know I preferred the Classé - damn shame about that - but that's the way it was for me.

So again I say - (profound, I know) the OP will have to listen for himself.

 

[2beornot2bop]

You've not heard your logan's until you've heard your logan's powered by glass. Having recently moved away from SS amps entirely I'm now a proponent of glass. But in the very least if you're powering a hybrid ML use a tube amp up top...this is common knowledge that goes back at least 20 years. Your hybrid woofers rob your Citation of so much of its power...free the Cit' from double duty...don't ask one amp to do the job of too...read all about it, it's right in your ML speaker manual...of course it's not written in that context. Turn to the section covering biamping and parallel biamping.

Enjoy

 

[PartTimeJedi]

I have used Mac 2x275s (KT88s speck'd at 150 per channel but in reality kick-out approx 180W). That was sublime. If you are biamping I would go for using the same amps personally.

 

[Bernard]

If you are biamping I would go for using the same amps personally.

I agree completely. How else are you going to match the gains easily, without futzing with resistors, attenuators, etc.

 

[asindc]

While I'm not familiar with the Citation amp, when I moved from Ascent-i to Vantages a few years ago, I got much better dynamics from the Vantages using the same Parasound A21 amp. In my listening experience, you will have to either go very big (like the Cary CAD 211) if you want to stick with tube amplication, or go SS to get the best out of panels the size of the Ascents.

 

[Reenberg]

I moved from quest to vantage a month ago ( there is a post in this forum describing the problems ). My experience is that the Vantage is hard for some tube amps, I ended up with a DOXA signature 140. So I'm afraid that sand is not just sand and glass is not just glass ( eave they are the same from a chemical point of view ).

The tube amp was super with the quests, but useless with the vantages.