Anybody owns a Summit and has dared to open it?

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kuebler

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Hi everybody,

I seriously consider to exchange the fronts of my ML 7.1 system from Clarity to Summit. But for principal reasons, I don't want to pay the 40% premium when purchasing in Europe with Euros. So like I did for other MLs, I would want to purchase through my company affiliate in the US.

The power supply for the Summit is labeled 110 volt on the outside, and the first dealer sweared that the internal power supply of the US version is really only 110 volt. This may be true, but it may also be pure marketing fog for dealer protection in Europe. When I recently purchased my Lexicon RV-8, the swear was the same, and when I later opened the box I found a jumper for switching between 110 and 220 volt.

So I can only know for sure from somebody who has a Summit and was curious enough to open it (I as an engineer sure would have done so :) ).

So if this rare species of curious owner/engineer exists, then I would be very grateful for learning whether the Summit can be switched internally to 220 volt.
 

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Kuebler

I wish I had an answer for you, but I have yet to audition a pair of summits yet, lot alone crack one open. I did post a picture of the internal workings of the summit here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=725
But I don’t think it will be too much help to you.

You could try sending an e-mail directly to Martin Logan, and see what they say?

Best of luck
Joe :cool:
 
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roberto

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kuebler said:
Hi everybody,

I seriously consider to exchange the fronts of my ML 7.1 system from Clarity to Summit. But for principal reasons, I don't want to pay the 40% premium when purchasing in Europe with Euros. So like I did for other MLs, I would want to purchase through my company affiliate in the US.

The power supply for the Summit is labeled 110 volt on the outside, and the first dealer sweared that the internal power supply of the US version is really only 110 volt. This may be true, but it may also be pure marketing fog for dealer protection in Europe. When I recently purchased my Lexicon RV-8, the swear was the same, and when I later opened the box I found a jumper for switching between 110 and 220 volt.

So I can only know for sure from somebody who has a Summit and was curious enough to open it (I as an engineer sure would have done so :) ).

So if this rare species of curious owner/engineer exists, then I would be very grateful for learning whether the Summit can be switched internally to 220 volt.
Hola... all export models have the 220/110V A.C. mains capacity from
M.L. You can ask to Mr. Jim Power at jpower@martinlogan.com regarding your needs. He es the Service Manager and a fine gentleman!!!
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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Zip3kx07 said:
Kuebler

I wish I had an answer for you, but I have yet to audition a pair of summits yet, lot alone crack one open. I did post a picture of the internal workings of the summit here: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=725
But I don’t think it will be too much help to you.
Yes, I assume the picture was synthetically generated for marketing purposes. It looks like there is no power transformer at all :)
You could try sending an e-mail directly to Martin Logan, and see what they say?

Best of luck
Joe :cool:
Maybe I have too much prejudices, but I can hear their answer in advance, telling me I should buy in Europe... My experience with Lexicon was really unpleasant enough.
 

kuebler

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roberto said:
Hola... all export models have the 220/110V A.C. mains capacity from
That's a possibility. And then any US dealer will tell me he cannot get the export version, which probably is even true.

When I was recently in San Francisco I tried already once to make an appointment for listening to a Summit, and when I told him that I'm German and want to buy the Summit through my company's US office, they told me it's anyway 110 volt and I couldn't make use of them, and then cancelled the listening appointment :mad:
M.L. You can ask to Mr. Jim Power at jpower@martinlogan.com regarding your needs. He es the Service Manager and a fine gentleman!!!
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.
I have heard that after one year they are entitled to deliver spare parts for changing US models to other versions. Possibly I'll take that route and in the meantime use a 220->110 volt transformer.
 

DTB300

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kuebler said:
Yes, I assume the picture was synthetically generated for marketing purposes. It looks like there is no power transformer at all :)
Roberto can help me here, but I believe the power amps of the Summit are one of the new digital amps and these have VERY SMALL transformers, capcitors, etc. compared to what we are USED to seeing with most Power Amps sections.

I believe there was a post here on it, and it could be part of the same thread where the pictures are posted discussing the other types of Power Amps

Dan
 

kuebler

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Just bitten the bullet...

I've just heard the Summit in direct comparison to the Clarity (my present front speakers), and the difference was enough to make me purchase the Summits.

I'll get them delivered in 2 weeks, and then I'll sure dare to open them myself, and I will report :p
 

Reverb

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kuebler said:
I've just heard the Summit in direct comparison to the Clarity (my present front speakers), and the difference was enough to make me purchase the Summits.

I'll get them delivered in 2 weeks, and then I'll sure dare to open them myself, and I will report :p
:eek: Pictures, Pictures, Pictures Pleassssssseeeeee. :D
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
I've just heard the Summit in direct comparison to the Clarity (my present front speakers), and the difference was enough to make me purchase the Summits.

I'll get them delivered in 2 weeks, and then I'll sure dare to open them myself, and I will report :p
Hola...if you open your new Summits to see what´s inside, you could void your warranty...just follow this thread: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=725

You could see what´s inside. Congrats with your speakers!!!...and to my ears, one of the best ML product so far!!!
Happy listening, trust your ears!
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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Zip3kx07 said:
:eek: Pictures, Pictures, Pictures Pleassssssseeeeee. :D
Ok, ok, I'll do so when they arrive. But what else do you expect from my pictures other than from the official ones?

From my experience when seeing them "live" I can give a positive message, as has been given already also by others in this forum: in reality, one looks at them nearly from the front, so in a totally different perspective than on the marketing pictures. Looking from a front perspectives puts away the "strange" angles of the box, which are so disturbing on the pictures.

BTW this effect was not only noticed by myself, who wished to finde the Summit good, but also by my wife ;)
 

kuebler

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roberto said:
Hola...if you open your new Summits to see what´s inside, you could void your warranty...just follow this thread:
As an engineer, since my ancient youth I always had a quite "robust" attitude toward this aspect :D
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
As an engineer, since my ancient youth I always had a quite "robust" attitude toward this aspect :D
Hola colleague...I'm also an electronic engineer...and represent ML here in Costa Rica, and I hope I will get the first Summits here on next week. When I listened to them at the Vegas Show, and their sound made a very good deep impression on me!!! I got this kind of impression when I had my first experience with the CLS...I can´t wait!
Happy listening,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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roberto said:
...When I listened to them at the Vegas Show, and their sound made a very good deep impression on me!!! I got this kind of impression when I had my first experience with the CLS...I can´t wait!
Happy listening,
Roberto.
My first experience was quite different, and it may be worthwhile for one or the other to have it explained briefly.

First to the history: I was a ML listener since very long, started with Quests in the early 90-ies, so I'm used to the ML characteristics. I wouldn't call myself an audiophile expert, not at all, but sure I have some feeling for speakers. I had dropped my audio interests nearly completely for some years, until I established a nice home theater 2 years ago. I wanted to have good audio, so my automatic route was going ML again. I purchased a 5.1 set from 4xClarity, Theater i, Descent, with which I was quite satisfied. Although I initially listened only to movies, I soon acquired a taste again also for music, and started to wish for optimization. I invested in room dampening (which probably gave the best result/$ ratio of everything I did), and I became annoyed by the fact that in listening to music I found the sound just from steroe better than from 5.1. This annoyed me purely in my engineer's efficiency sentiment, because I felt it a waste of technical investment :eek: I then started 2 simultaneous routes for music improvement: I expanded from 5.1 to 7.1 and purchased a sophisticated surround processing with my Lexicon, and I considered exchanging the Clarity front speakers for the possible case, that I still would want most music only through the two front speakers, or only with a very minor contribution form the surround field. This consideration to exchange was fueled by the advent of the Summit, because they are new and hightech, which typically warms the heart of a tech gadget lover, and they were no such monsters as the older higher level ML speakers, which I would not want to have in my moderately sized room (even the old Quest I woulod today no longer want with regard to the size). After some time of thinking silently about this, I had got used and comfortable with the thought of losing the money, and wanted to use a vacation in the US for listening to one.

Sorry for the long digression, now I come to what I wanted to tell: I rushed into the first dealer's showroom, who had the Summit on display, and they switched them on.

Boy was I disappointed at first glance!

I'm not sufficiently familiar with audiophile terms anyway, and specifically not in a foreign language. But I would say, that although the room appeared not overdamped, the music sounded for me way too dark. I can measure only against my imagination of a reality, and therefore I listen typically to small ensembles with e.g. a piano and a human singer, for which I believe to have a feeling of how it may sound in nature. And even trying hard, I could not imagine that the singer was real. Again, the dealers showroom at first glance looked well done, so I cannot simply blame them. But overall it was just a big initial subjective disappointment for me.

A rationally acting man would have turned from the shop and gladly saved the money. But for a tech gadget junkie's soul a new equipment has a similar meaning like what for a woman sometimes the new fur coat may mean :p

So I stayed and my fall back strategy became to no longer seek for absolute quality, but to try to measure the Summit relatively to other speakers. So by chance first I compared to a set of Vienna Beethoven and Sonus Faber Grand Piano. This comparison was done already by another customer in the shop, and he very clearly put the Summit third place. When this man had left, I compared them again, and I was glad to find that in my subjective feeling, the Summit was the least "dark" sounding speaker, and it had improved trnaparency and spaciousness, relatively. I was glad because this reinforced my since long not scrutinized choice of ML speakers.

Next I compared the Summits to a pair of Clarity, because that was the initial decision to be found for my home. The difference between both pairs was quite strong, stronger than I had anticipated. In the meantime (about 1 hour) I had got a little bit more used to the overall sound characteristics, and found the Summit no longer so disappointing, but still not at all overwhelming. But when we kicked in the Clarities (in order to do no inadequate comparison, we had muted the summit's bass a bit), then the music quality fell back to a degree, that I could not imagine, how I could like my Clarities at home so much. With the Clarities the sound image virtually collapsed and became dull.

I found interesting, that my wife, who has no technical knowledge at all, but is a hobby musician, shared all my described impressions to any detail.

The rest was a no-brainer. I negotiated in parallel with the dealer on a good price, and with my wife on about how good and indispensable a deal we had got offered. So after altogether just about 2 hours my credit card had significantly been shrunken, and to the same amount my anticipating joy for what happens in my home in 2 weeks had been blown up :p

Long story's short meaning: Completely other than with your own experience, my first dating with the Summit has not resulted in a love story on first sight, but possibly a long lasting happy relationship will grow from it nevertheless ;)
 
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roberto

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kuebler said:
My first experience was quite different, and it may be worthwhile for one or the other to have it explained briefly.

First to the history: I was a ML listener since very long, started with Quests in the early 90-ies, so I'm used to the ML characteristics. I wouldn't call myself an audiophile expert, not at all, but sure I have some feeling for speakers. I had dropped my audio interests nearly completely for some years, until I established a nice home theater 2 years ago. I wanted to have good audio, so my automatic route was going ML again. I purchased a 5.1 set from 4xClarity, Theater i, Descent, with which I was quite satisfied. Although I initially listened only to movies, I soon acquired a taste again also for music, and started to wish for optimization. I invested in room dampening (which probably gave the best result/$ ratio of everything I did), and I became annoyed by the fact that in listening to music I found the sound just from steroe better than from 5.1. This annoyed me purely in my engineer's efficiency sentiment, because I felt it a waste of technical investment :eek: I then started 2 simultaneous routes for music improvement: I expanded from 5.1 to 7.1 and purchased a sophisticated surround processing with my Lexicon, and I considered exchanging the Clarity front speakers for the possible case, that I still would want most music only through the two front speakers, or only with a very minor contribution form the surround field. This consideration to exchange was fueled by the advent of the Summit, because they are new and hightech, which typically warms the heart of a tech gadget lover, and they were no such monsters as the older higher level ML speakers, which I would not want to have in my moderately sized room (even the old Quest I woulod today no longer want with regard to the size). After some time of thinking silently about this, I had got used and comfortable with the thought of losing the money, and wanted to use a vacation in the US for listening to one.

Sorry for the long digression, now I come to what I wanted to tell: I rushed into the first dealer's showroom, who had the Summit on display, and they switched them on.

Boy was I disappointed at first glance!

I'm not sufficiently familiar with audiophile terms anyway, and specifically not in a foreign language. But I would say, that although the room appeared not overdamped, the music sounded for me way too dark. I can measure only against my imagination of a reality, and therefore I listen typically to small ensembles with e.g. a piano and a human singer, for which I believe to have a feeling of how it may sound in nature. And even trying hard, I could not imagine that the singer was real. Again, the dealers showroom at first glance looked well done, so I cannot simply blame them. But overall it was just a big initial subjective disappointment for me.

A rationally acting man would have turned from the shop and gladly saved the money. But for a tech gadget junkie's soul a new equipment has a similar meaning like what for a woman sometimes the new fur coat may mean :p

So I stayed and my fall back strategy became to no longer seek for absolute quality, but to try to measure the Summit relatively to other speakers. So by chance first I compared to a set of Vienna Beethoven and Sonus Faber Grand Piano. This comparison was done already by another customer in the shop, and he very clearly put the Summit third place. When this man had left, I compared them again, and I was glad to find that in my subjective feeling, the Summit was the least "dark" sounding speaker, and it had improved trnaparency and spaciousness, relatively. I was glad because this reinforced my since long not scrutinized choice of ML speakers.

Next I compared the Summits to a pair of Clarity, because that was the initial decision to be found for my home. The difference between both pairs was quite strong, stronger than I had anticipated. In the meantime (about 1 hour) I had got a little bit more used to the overall sound characteristics, and found the Summit no longer so disappointing, but still not at all overwhelming. But when we kicked in the Clarities (in order to do no inadequate comparison, we had muted the summit's bass a bit), then the music quality fell back to a degree, that I could not imagine, how I could like my Clarities at home so much. With the Clarities the sound image virtually collapsed and became dull.

I found interesting, that my wife, who has no technical knowledge at all, but is a hobby musician, shared all my described impressions to any detail.

The rest was a no-brainer. I negotiated in parallel with the dealer on a good price, and with my wife on about how good and indispensable a deal we had got offered. So after altogether just about 2 hours my credit card had significantly been shrunken, and to the same amount my anticipating joy for what happens in my home in 2 weeks had been blown up :p

Long story's short meaning: Completely other than with your own experience, my first dating with the Summit has not resulted in a love story on first sight, but possibly a long lasting happy relationship will grow from it nevertheless ;)
Wow, that was something. Well I have my story too. First time I met the ML sound was in Chicago at the summer CES. That was back at the 87. Mussatez Audio was showing their goods with a pair of CLS...when I listened to them, was a truly love at the first heard!!!...lol.
Then I started to sell ML here in Costa Rica and became their representative also for Central America. All I can say is that as soon as I had the chance to listened some good speakers, always made like a match between ML sound and what the other company had...and the winner is...
the best for my taste and liking has being the CLS, but any ML model have their place in the marketplace and my ears also. All of them show the transparency, image and scenario that are very difficult to get from other brands, but I´m not saying that they are perfect. What I´saying is that what you pay and what you get are the best!.
The Summits are something IMHO, that no other speaker is offering...the low frequency control for the standing waves. You can adjust the bass for the right level and tonallity that for the moment that I know, other offers this. Is the solution to the bass problem. Yes, I know that the rooms are not only bass, but the resonances are killed and you will get the cleanest bass available today. And the new panel, 17% more efficient than the old panel, makes the Summit, to my liking and ears, a clear winner. More dynamics, more inner detail, more space between instruments, more air between first violins and the second violins...effortless mid-range and crystal clear highs!!!...very easy to have problems with wrong cables!...you have to take your time to get the best match in components for them...perhaps you are not going to like some of your old components in your system chain, but this is our hobby...and our pleasure!!!...new toys to play with...and your ears granted with your new sound. They need a lot of time to break-in, I would guess about 100 hours!...why? The new panel is very bright at the begining, just give them some time...don´t make any final judment until you have about this time...place them at least one meter away from its back wall, and your are done!...happy listening,
Roberto.
 
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kuebler

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roberto said:
...very easy to have problems with wrong cables!...
I have to admit that I'm not a special friend of cable differences. I know that some people believe to hear differences in power supply cables... To put it politely: I believe in psychoacoustics... :D
But with speaker cables, I deem differences to be possible. Right now for the front speakers I have a trivial cabling from silverized copper wires of 6 square millimeter, 8 feet long.
Under these circumstances, do you want to give me some recommendations, which don't stress my need to believe in vodoo overly much? ;)
you have to take your time to get the best match in components for them...perhaps you are not going to like some of your old components in your system chain, but this is our hobby...and our pleasure!!!...new toys to play with...and your ears granted with your new sound. They need a lot of time to break-in, I would guess about 100 hours!...why? The new panel is very bright at the begining, just give them some time...don´t make any final judment until you have about this time...place them at least one meter away from its back wall, and your are done!...happy listening,
Roberto.
Good to know the brake in matter. Possibly this helps me a lot psychoacoustically: If they should sound bad in my room, then I will put the blame to the initial 100 hours of brake in period, and during those 100 hours I have plenty of time to adjust to the sound, and to believe that they have improved so much during brake in :D
Perhaps you can help me with a hint for placement: the Summits will stand about 4 feet in front of the larger walls of my rectangular room, so this meets your recommendation. They will also have more than 6 feet distance from the side walls. But my problem is that they have to be as distant from each other, than from my listening position. The reason is that I have a 12 feet wide screen, on whose sides they are, and my distance to the screen is only 12 feet as well. I believe this is not optimal, but what could I do to compensate for potential negative effects?

Thanks for thinking about it.
 

roberto

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kuebler said:
I have to admit that I'm not a special friend of cable differences. I know that some people believe to hear differences in power supply cables... To put it politely: I believe in psychoacoustics... :D
But with speaker cables, I deem differences to be possible. Right now for the front speakers I have a trivial cabling from silverized copper wires of 6 square millimeter, 8 feet long.
Under these circumstances, do you want to give me some recommendations, which don't stress my need to believe in vodoo overly much? ;)
Good to know the brake in matter. Possibly this helps me a lot psychoacoustically: If they should sound bad in my room, then I will put the blame to the initial 100 hours of brake in period, and during those 100 hours I have plenty of time to adjust to the sound, and to believe that they have improved so much during brake in :D
Perhaps you can help me with a hint for placement: the Summits will stand about 4 feet in front of the larger walls of my rectangular room, so this meets your recommendation. They will also have more than 6 feet distance from the side walls. But my problem is that they have to be as distant from each other, than from my listening position. The reason is that I have a 12 feet wide screen, on whose sides they are, and my distance to the screen is only 12 feet as well. I believe this is not optimal, but what could I do to compensate for potential negative effects?

Thanks for thinking about it.
mmmmmmmmm just thinking loud, you can adjust the toe-in further than it is recommended...in other words, where you are seated, if you look at the Summits, try first to see facing you the whole panel...toward you. I hope you understand what I´m trying to say. This array, will make to the sound, be forward, and perhaps you will not have ping-pong musical notes from a piano. If you don´t have them, you are at the right listening place...also regarding the cables, because their triboelectric and piezo electric properties, any cable is microphonic, so you can use it as a tone control...different cables will make your sound brighter or bigger at the bass than others...trust in your ears!!! and if your feet is moving when you are listening to music, you are in the right track. Happy listening,
Roberto.
 

kuebler

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I understand what you mean. I'll have to experiment with the toe-in. That's probably the only variable which I have.
roberto said:
and if your feet is moving when you are listening to music, you are in the right track. Happy listening,
Roberto.
Yes, you are right. That's the psychoacoustically optimal point ;)
 

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US Vantage in Europe

I have a related question:


Can a 110V 60 HZ US Vantage be used in Europe on 220V 50Hz ?????


Does the Vantage have a 60HZ detection circuit to block this use ??

regards,


FireStealth
 

roberto

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I have a related question:


Can a 110V 60 HZ US Vantage be used in Europe on 220V 50Hz ?????


Does the Vantage have a 60HZ detection circuit to block this use ??

regards,


FireStealth
Hola...and yes, the Vantage has the detection circuit as the Summit does. You have to change parts inside to be use on 220V and 50Hz. You have to buy your Vantage from a dealer in Europe. Happy listening,
Roberto.:musicnote:
 

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So for now I have to stick with my Quad ESL63 (not a real punishment I can assure you) and I have to postpone my order for a pair ML Vantage in the US until I have enough time to tackle this issue.

Herewith I ask anybody to come up with information in order to fix this problem which is against the priciple of free trade.(not only in my opinion)

The more info I get the quicker I will be able to delete this annoying feature. (update the Vantage to be power frequency independant)

That I have an electronical workshop at home is not a coincidence.

Please send me a PM when you think this is an interesting subject for you.

FireStealth :band:
 
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