Which ML to pick

[billschreiner]

Newbie here. I am going to get a pair of Martin Logan's, but I don't know which pair.

I went to the store and I heard the Summit's which sounded great. They wanted about 10K. I had thought you could get some awesome ML electrostatic sound for less (Aerius i?). The guy told me "for my room size" I would want the Summit's..... It is a big room and i do want the bigger panel.

I don't remember the name of the smaller ML Vantage? Then he said poor woofer, blah, blah. He had that evil salesperson look in his eye at that point.

So i looked online and started to like the idea of the HUGE panel for CLS. I then called Martin Logan and spoke with somebody there who didn't seem to know the older models well. She did say the CLS owners were the most loyal and outspoken group she knew. Which tells me they like their speakers. Do I need two subs for those?

ANyway, I am looking for a speaker to last and was going to get that new Krell 400xi integrated so I could have plenty of juice. But I don't know how to get the most bang for my buck.

I want to be able to play loudly and love that transparent sound so much. I know there is an ML fit, but I would rather not pay $7500 or so for the Summit.

Could an old Aerius i do the trick, or has technology passed them by and would the panels be old? Urrrrrrrgh.

Help.... and thanks.

 

[eknuds01]

I will answer some of the questions and also address a few points in your other post.

You don't have a huge room, but it's not a very small one either. I think the Vantage would be OK. If I am not mistaken the Vantage and Summit have roughly the same size panel. But the bass production is better coming from the summit. I don't think many would argue that point. However, with a good sub you can bridge the gap.

You could delve into the larger panel ML speakers. The CLS is a rather unique product in that it doesn't contain a woofer (not a hybrid speaker like the newer models). The CLS is one of the finest speakers ever made and if mated with good electronics you are in for a real treat. Most CLS owners couple their speakers with a sub. You may not require two, though.

If you want to stick with the more recent, hybrid, design and aren't opposed to buying used equipment, then consider the Odyssey or Ascent/Ascent i (or the Vantage or Summit if you can afford it). For a room your size, the Aerius i could work, but you might want to spring for a larger panel. You can get new panels for the speakers. Just call ML and they will give you a price. So if buy a 10+ year old speaker, and want to repanel that is an option. You can also install new woofers. New woofers and panels are akin to a brand new speaker IMO. We have a number of forum members that have held on to their speakers for 15+ years.

The Krell 400xi is OK. You can also consider going seperates and this is purely a matter of taste. You mentioned spending upwards of $4500 for new electronics. I think that's more than enough. If you prefer the warmth and sweet sound that tube amps provide, by all means find a dealer and audition a few.

Keep in mind that tubes do wear out and need to be replaced every now and again. Thus lots of people prefer solid state amps and you need a high current amp for ML speakers. We like amps that double the wattage as the impedance is halved. This is just a rule of thumb. To that end, you'll find a number of people like to use solid state amps with tube pre-amps. You could also consider using a solid state pre - it's up to you. In general the tubes in the pre-amps last a lot longer vs the tubes in the amps.

Might I recommend the following:

Amps (solid state):

Sunfire
Plinius
Rotel
NAD
BAT
MacIntosh (tube)
Pass
Outlaw
Classe
Bryston
Audio Research (tube - I believe they make some solid state amps as well)

The above list contains amps in the $1000-$3000 range (and well over that) for used equipment.

Pre-amps

Rotel (solid state)
Audio Research (tube)
Cary (tube)
NAD (great bang for the buck)

Again, you should be able to find a digital or tube pre-amp within the budget.

As for CD players, I never liked spending tons of money on them. Don't get me wrong, they are important. Rotel makes a really nice entry level player. If you got the bucks, then check out Esoteric.

It also wouldn't hurt to consider putting some of the budget toward room treatments. This cannot be understated. What the speakers sound like in a reviewer's home/lab and at the store will be very different vs your house which contains hardwood floors. Room treatments and speaker placement are very important!

 

[billschreiner]

thanks

Wow. Thanks for your help.

A few questions.

The Vantage is a bit smaller panel. How do you think the A:B test would sound with Vantage (plus sub) vs. Summit? Or stated differently are the panels the same quality and/or does the small size difference really matter?
Regarding the CLS. How long to panels last? I called Martin Logan and they said that smoking = bad firewater. They quoted me $900 for a new panel, but was in information overload and I don’t remember for which model and if that was one or two speakers.

I’ve noticed that electrostatics are so “unforgiving” of mediocre equipment/recordings. I’ve never heard them with tubes (never owned tubes)……..is it that much of a difference?

I did have my eye on a beefy Classe amp with an Audio Research tube preamp…… Not because I heard it, but because I am a bit fond of Classe’ and a respected friend really likes the AR tube pre’s. I figured I couldn’t go too wrong. But I would rather simplify if the sound isn’t a step forward. I always feel like I screw up my AB tests………I’m sitting there sweating and trying to remember what it sounded like fifteen minutes ago. Probably just an impatient personality and would rather “play the odds” and get world class equipment and then just blend with the music.

So you had me pegged with Classe’ and AR. Regarding the room treatments, they are coming in the form of carpeting, pictures, lamps, etc.

Thanks a ton for your help. I’ve already read your post four times.

Best,
Bill

 

[nsgarch]

Bill, I want to say some general things about minimum room sizes and speaker placement(s) for electrostats (especially ML electrostats.) If you want you can read my syst. desc. or amp review for other opinions

1. A lot of domestic rooms that get used for listening rooms have their smaller dimension less than 15 feet. This means that you will have to place the speakers on the short wall (not the best) because at less than 15 feet wide (12 feet is the absolute minimum), trying to place them on the long wall, you will not be able to get the speakers out into the room far enough (min. 5 feet), and still have your ears at least 8 feet from the speakers, with a min. 2 feet behind your ears to eliminate rear-wall bass peaks. (5 + 8 + 2 = 15)

2. At less than 15 feet room width, and the speakers facing the long dimension of the room, you must allow a minimum of 2.5 feet (30") between the each sidewall and the outside edge of each panel. If you observe these dimensions (5' behind and 2.5' side clearance) you will quickly realize that with even the narrower panel models, your ears will have to be quite close to the speakers, often less than 8 feet to "find an image ". This condition is called "nearfield" listening and basically turns your speakers into headphones -- which is not a bad thing -- but it it eliminates the "speaker/room interaction" that contibutes to a full soundstage. You could try and deaden every room surface beginning 6 feet in front of the speakers to all the way around behind them, but it's not quite the same as a bigger room You'll still have to sit close, but the soundstage will be bigger.

3. If your room is perfectly square, (which has never happened to me, but) I understand that a 45 degree placement using one of the room diagonals as your center axis, works best.

4. If you're blessed with a room whose smaller dimension is 15 feet or more, and one of the two longer walls is free of openings (at least 7 feet each way from the center of the wall) you are home free. You won't need much room treatment other than some bass traps (if the room isn't really big.) BTW, often rooms have alcoves/halls/closets adjoining them. If you cover their walls fl. to clg., and 5 feet deep with absorbtive material, they make great bass traps! Remember to remove the closet door, or open it while listening! Hopefully it will already have plenty of heavy coats hanging in it!

5. One other great advantage of ML speakers (vis-a-vis your room) is that unlike conventional speakers, they have very little vertical radiation (above the mid-bass), due to the tall, narrow shape of the panel. And the curve reduces vertical dispersion even further, while increasing horizontal dispersion. What all this means, is that low ceilings are not a problem. (Think of all the Soundlab speakers you've seen almost touching the ceiling!)

 

[slowGEEZR]

Newbie here.
I had thought you could get some awesome ML electrostatic sound for less (Aerius i?). The guy told me "for my room size" I would want the Summit's..... It is a big room and i do want the bigger panel.

ANyway, I am looking for a speaker to last and was going to get that new Krell 400xi integrated so I could have plenty of juice.
I want to be able to play loudly and love that transparent sound so much. t.

Could an old Aerius i do the trick, or has technology passed them by and would the panels be old? Urrrrrrrgh.

Welcome Bill. Here are some of my observations regarding my own Aerius speakers. I am currently trying to get them to the best positioning that I can in my current room. The room size is 15'6" X 14'4" with a hallway off the long wall. The previous room the speakers were in was 26' by 17'. The Aerius shined in that larger room. The sound levels were plenty loud enough for me, though obviously, they were not as loud sounding as in the current, smaller room. That being said, there was plenty of volume reserve in the larger room. The Aerius has a lot of dynamic slam, which may have to do with the higher crossover point for the woofers. I bought my speakers in 1995 and they still sound great to me.

I also have a Krell 400xi. It is a great sounding integrated amp. I'm not using it with the Aerius though, I prefer the sound from my Jolida JD1000RC. They both cost about the same. If you prefer to listen loudly, I suggest the Jolida over the Krell, as the Krell gets very hot when playing loudly and according to stereophile, the distortion rises dramatically. The Jolida handles loud volumes and difficult loads with aplomb. Krell had to save some money somewhere in order to sell their amp for the price point and it is generally agreed in the audio press that they skimped on the heat sinking. I think the Krell would excel in powering speakers which did not present such a demanding load. After having said this, I have never heard any problem driving the MLs with the Krell. Good luck in your search.

 

[billschreiner]

Does the Mac 275 drive those CLS’s? the system looks awesome. How do I read your amp review?
How sacred is the five foot rule?
How do you deaden a surface?
I got so into your room treatment primer that I called a specialist who might come by.
OK, was getting totally into this so I remeasured the room, thinking I was wrong about the measurements. I was. It is not 10x25, it is 17x40, opening to 24x40 for the last third. There are a number of openings near the rear of the room. New house so not really furnished yet. Kitchen/island crap begins about half way into the room.
The 2.5 from the side wall won’t be a problem, but the 5’ will. HELP.
Thanks by the way.

 

[billschreiner]

Is there much difference between the Aerius and the Aerius i? can you change the crossover point or is that internal?
Thanks for the heads up on Krell 400i, I like simple, but I don’t want problems when I need to knock out my earwax.
And you gotta tell me about those tubes. I feel like a poser avoiding cult of tubes….like avoiding fly fishing. But I would HATE a pro coming over and telling me…..”dude, this tube is dead, couldn’t you hear it”. I would burn my system and go by an old eight track mono system. What about just a tube pre? WHY THE DAMN TUBES. Maybe I’m just a music enthusiast from America looking for the quick fix. I wanted a dedicated music room, but not to be this time around. And I am going to have to fight for speaker placement rights. Already having trouble with that. “Can’t you hear the difference” got me a night on the couch.
Thanks,
Bill

 

[twich54]

How sacred is the five foot rule?
.

Don't let Neil scare you ! LOL ! 5' min is really not true, I would go so far as to say that a min of 36-42" is required for quality sound. Granted 5-6' is an ideal distance for sure, but again good results can be obtained with less.

The key being the wall and its treatment behind the speaker. One general rule of thumb is the closer the speaker is to the wall behind the more 'absorption' required, the further away the speaker then the balance tilts to 'diffusion'. Keep in mind corner bass trapping is a plus regardless of distance from wall behind ones speaker.

Search the many threads regarding acoustics not only on our forum but from companies such as GIK, Real Traps, etc.

 

[Spike]

I’ve noticed that electrostatics are so “unforgiving” of mediocre equipment/recordings. I’ve never heard them with tubes (never owned tubes)……..is it that much of a difference?

Short answer is... The difference is illuminated (pun intended) like night & day!

I did have my eye on a beefy Classe amp with an Audio Research tube preamp…… Not because I heard it, but because I am a bit fond of Classe’ and a respected friend really likes the AR tube pre’s. I figured I couldn’t go too wrong. But I would rather simplify if the sound isn’t a step forward. I always feel like I screw up my AB tests………I’m sitting there sweating and trying to remember what it sounded like fifteen minutes ago. Probably just an impatient personality and would rather “play the odds” and get world class equipment and then just blend with the music.

So you had me pegged with Classe’ and AR. Regarding the room treatments, they are coming in the form of carpeting, pictures, lamps, etc.

I went from a beefy Classe' amplifier (CA-300) Audio Research tube pre (LS7) combination to all-tube amplification on the panels and could not be happier! Here are some of my previous posts for your references...

1. Bi-Amping
2. Audio Electronics SixPacs

Spike

 

[nsgarch]

amp review page

Bill, you'll find the MC275 review on our forum's Recommended Equipment > Amplifiers page: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=64

 

[ALTMAN]

Is there much difference between the Aerius and the Aerius i? can you change the crossover point or is that internal?
Thanks for the heads up on Krell 400i, I like simple, but I don’t want problems when I need to knock out my earwax.
And you gotta tell me about those tubes. I feel like a poser avoiding cult of tubes….like avoiding fly fishing. But I would HATE a pro coming over and telling me…..”dude, this tube is dead, couldn’t you hear it”. I would burn my system and go by an old eight track mono system. What about just a tube pre? WHY THE DAMN TUBES. Maybe I’m just a music enthusiast from America looking for the quick fix. I wanted a dedicated music room, but not to be this time around. And I am going to have to fight for speaker placement rights. Already having trouble with that. “Can’t you hear the difference” got me a night on the couch.
Thanks,
Bill

Practially speaking you have hit upon a very important issue regarding a system built around the ML speakers. I have been trying to select the right amp for my speakers out of amps I have in my home. After trying the amps in my collection I am leaning towards a solid state amp and a tube pre-amp.

In priciple this direction is bolstered by psychological factors. The Logans are in and of themselves "organic speakers" which will change on a day to day basis. They (virtually all Martin Logans) are sensitive to power quality, air quality and everything connected to them. I would not really want to add a tube amplifier into the mix with so many factors which tend to change on a daily basis.

While a few speak highly of the McIntosh amps I dont have a tube McIntosh amp at home. These amps are self biasing which may make them more consistent and practical than the crazy amps I have. (don't ask --- Futtermans, AR, NYAL and a bunch of solid state amps that only a guy with years of experience, a liberal budget and virtually no common sense would own)