To go balance or not

[Brad225]

No cabling opinion wars please and I realize this is system subjective.

For any of you that have gone from single ended to balanced on your preamp to amp interconnects.

Would you spend $500 for an upgrade and shipping to change your power amps to balanced inputs for a 1.5m cable length.

This is assuming you are running balanced from your source to your preamp already.

 

[Diamonds]

No cabling opinion wars please and I realize this is system subjective.

For any of you that have gone from single ended to balanced on your preamp to amp interconnects.

Would you spend $500 for an upgrade and shipping to change your power amps to balanced inputs for a 1.5m cable length.

This is assuming you are running balanced from your source to your preamp already.

I think I would. I think an XLR connection does generally give you a better sound. I have become a Conrad Johnson whore and all they use is single ended and it sounds great.

 

[rs2]

No cabling opinion wars please and I realize this is system subjective.

For any of you that have gone from single ended to balanced on your preamp to amp interconnects.

Would you spend $500 for an upgrade and shipping to change your power amps to balanced inputs for a 1.5m cable length.

This is assuming you are running balanced from your source to your preamp already.

I just switched from unbalanced to balanced from my CD to preamp and it made a HUGE difference. I plan on doing the same thing from preamp to amp in the very near future even though I have been told by several dealers that there is no audible difference. After hearing the change with the CD player I do not believe them. BTW I spent just under $800 for a 2M pair for the CD.

 

[David Matz]

Has the amp been designed to run balanced? For example, Mac is not designed balanced, so balanced will probably make it a bit more quiet. Would this be worth it to you? Who knows without listening and considering what else that $500 would buy to improve your sound.

Ayre or BAT, however, are designed to be balanced. To me personally, this would be a no brainer.

 

[risabet]

Trade-offs abound, true balanced operation uses twice the parts and is by definition more complex to build. I've heard balanced sound better, worse or more commonly no difference at all. I'm not convinced that for short runs of cabling that the difference is all that great. Would the amp topology be balanced throughout or just the input. XLRs alone do not balanced make!

 

[eknuds01]

Risabet is correct. The topolgy of the amp needs to be balanced throughout. Just throwing in some balanced connections in the back is not good enough.

 

[Brad225]

I spoke with Leonard at ARC about my Classic 120s and he said it was a very simple conversion.

He also offered up that he didn't think there would be much difference in the sound. But considering the cost he would not say don't do it.

 

[sebrof2000]

I don't have a lot of experience with balanced components, but what I have heard is an increase in gain with balanced more often than not. So, you switch from unbalanced to balanced, the balanced is louder, so it's easy to mistake that increased volume for "better."
I'm just sayin'.

 

[amey01]

Risabet is correct. The topolgy of the amp needs to be balanced throughout. Just throwing in some balanced connections in the back is not good enough.

Not only not good enough, but can actually lower the sound quality. On the other hand, if BOTH the preamp and amp are true balanced circuits, then it is probably the best way to go.

 

[nsgarch]

Some equipment is designed with both SE and XLR ins/outs. As already mentioned above, this doesn't mean they employ balanced circuits, but if your amp and preamp have balanced connectors, then by all means use them.

For one thing, choosing the balanced inputs on an amplifier means you avoid sending the signal through the splitter-inverter circuit before it can go to the gain stages. To me that's a no brainer. If both your amp and preamp have SE connections only, I wouldn't modify them. However, if your preamp has balanced outputs and the amp has only SE inputs, then IMO you should use balanced IC's with a converter plug at the amp end. At least the signal will be quieter, and you'll be all set for when you get a new amp with balanced inputs!

As for sources, well if your preamp has balanced inputs (and your source has balanced outputs) definitely use them! Some sources' outputs are by nature balanced. Phono cartridges definitely, and many D-to-A (DAC) circuits are inherently balanced at the output. So why waste half the signal they provide?

 

[tonepub]

Always give it a try if you can....

As mentioned earlier, some gear like BAT and Ayre, being designed from the ground up to be balanced has always sounded at least quieter in balanced mode.

Every other piece of gear I've tested has had varied results. Some sounds better balanced, some not, some not much diff either way.

If there is any way that you can try a set of the cable you are using in both single ended (RCA) mode and balanced (XLR) is really the only way to know for sure.

If you have to run a long distance and have fully balanced, it can be a benefit, but I run a pair of 16 foot interconnects from my amp to preamp (RCA's) and don't have a noise issue.

Again, it's always case by case. Good luck with the trial!

 

[nsgarch]

One can always use the trial-and-error method, spend lots of time for sure, and maybe lots of money too. And end up with varied results that don't seem to fit any logical pattern. Learning simple electronic principals and basic circuit design is time better spent IMO, than just 'shooting fish in a barrel' and hoping to 'luck out' and stumble on a winning combination. And it's certainly no way to test equipment, since it leaves one at a loss to explain the results in a way that's useful to them in the future, or helpful to anyone else now -- it's all anecdotal after all, but it needn't be that way.

Find out why both balanced circuits and single ended circuits can be hooked up with either balanced or unbalanced interconnects. Find out why input/output impedance ratios between equipment could (surprisingly) result in a single ended connection sounding better than a balanced connection, when in fact the results are relative: both cables are yielding inferior sound to some degree because those two pieces of equipment shouldn't be used together to begin with, . . . . . . .etc, etc, ad nauseum!

When you take a little time to understand the half dozen basic approaches to amplification, you'll understand why Roger Sanders (the brains behind Innersound) now makes the most electostat-friendly ss amp, while other highly praised and excellent ss amps (Goldmund, Spectral, and the latest Pass design) are not at their best with stats, due to their unique design approach(es).

Most phenomena in audio electronics and acoustics (I'd guess 90% or more) can be understood and explained. And great sounding systems can be assembled to suit your taste without a lot of wasteful trial and error. Don't be lazy. Find a mentor, and learn on your own as well. Otherwise, like so many self-proclaimed reviewers these days, you'll never actually understand why a given system sounds the way it does. And what (perhaps very small thing) could be done to make it really come alive!

Or you could just go out and spend a wad on an all-McIntosh or even more on an all-Goldmund system, now possible in both brands from stylus-to-speakers, and tell yourself you're hearing the best sound money can buy. Enjoy!

 

[HsvToolFool]

I am sold on balanced circuitry. As others have stated above, improvements are not due to the cables. If anything, balanced circuitry makes the interconnect cables less relevant (I use affordable microphone cables rather than expensive audiophile interconnects).

From the CD player's DACs to the amp, two signals are sent 180-degrees out of phase with each other. If one signal picks up noise, the other signal gets the inverse of the noise. When the signals are compared at the destination, the noise cancels out.

If you want to read more, the technical term for this approach is "differential" rather than "balanced".

 

[C.A.P]

Balanced all the way . But as many have said here it has to be a true balanced circuit. My Krell is and its a huge difference.

 

[tonepub]

One can always use the trial-and-error method, spend lots of time for sure, and maybe lots of money too. And end up with varied results that don't seem to fit any logical pattern. Learning simple electronic principals and basic circuit design is time better spent IMO, than just 'shooting fish in a barrel' and hoping to 'luck out' and stumble on a winning combination. And it's certainly no way to test equipment, since it leaves one at a loss to explain the results in a way that's useful to them in the future, or helpful to anyone else now -- it's all anecdotal after all, but it needn't be that way.

Find out why both balanced circuits and single ended circuits can be hooked up with either balanced or unbalanced interconnects. Find out why input/output impedance ratios between equipment could (surprisingly) result in a single ended connection sounding better than a balanced connection, when in fact the results are relative: both cables are yielding inferior sound to some degree because those two pieces of equipment shouldn't be used together to begin with, . . . . . . .etc, etc, ad nauseum!

When you take a little time to understand the half dozen basic approaches to amplification, you'll understand why Roger Sanders (the brains behind Innersound) now makes the most electostat-friendly ss amp, while other highly praised and excellent ss amps (Goldmund, Spectral, and the latest Pass design) are not at their best with stats, due to their unique design approach(es).

Most phenomena in audio electronics and acoustics (I'd guess 90% or more) can be understood and explained. And great sounding systems can be assembled to suit your taste without a lot of wasteful trial and error. Don't be lazy. Find a mentor, and learn on your own as well. Otherwise, like so many self-proclaimed reviewers these days, you'll never actually understand why a given system sounds the way it does. And what (perhaps very small thing) could be done to make it really come alive!

Or you could just go out and spend a wad on an all-McIntosh or even more on an all-Goldmund system, now possible in both brands from stylus-to-speakers, and tell yourself you're hearing the best sound money can buy. Enjoy!

Then please explain why if there is an absolute way to do this, why it's still pretty much split down the middle...

The mfrs that use balanced exclusively have plenty of reasons why their approach is the best and vice versa.

I've spent plenty of time talking to the biggest brains in the industry and it's still a draw. And after reviewing a couple hundred components, it's still a draw. Some components sound better balanced, some sound better single ended and some that offer both don't sound all that much different hooked up either way.

Theres a lot more to it than impedance and there is no best anything...
So your condescending attitude doesn't solve the problem....

 

[jjay]

One can always use the trial-and-error method, spend lots of time for sure, and maybe lots of money too. And end up with varied results that don't seem to fit any logical pattern. Learning simple electronic principals and basic circuit design is time better spent IMO, than just 'shooting fish in a barrel' and hoping to 'luck out' and stumble on a winning combination. And it's certainly no way to test equipment, since it leaves one at a loss to explain the results in a way that's useful to them in the future, or helpful to anyone else now -- it's all anecdotal after all, but it needn't be that way.

Find out why both balanced circuits and single ended circuits can be hooked up with either balanced or unbalanced interconnects. Find out why input/output impedance ratios between equipment could (surprisingly) result in a single ended connection sounding better than a balanced connection, when in fact the results are relative: both cables are yielding inferior sound to some degree because those two pieces of equipment shouldn't be used together to begin with, . . . . . . .etc, etc, ad nauseum!

When you take a little time to understand the half dozen basic approaches to amplification, you'll understand why Roger Sanders (the brains behind Innersound) now makes the most electostat-friendly ss amp, while other highly praised and excellent ss amps (Goldmund, Spectral, and the latest Pass design) are not at their best with stats, due to their unique design approach(es).

Most phenomena in audio electronics and acoustics (I'd guess 90% or more) can be understood and explained. And great sounding systems can be assembled to suit your taste without a lot of wasteful trial and error. Don't be lazy. Find a mentor, and learn on your own as well. Otherwise, like so many self-proclaimed reviewers these days, you'll never actually understand why a given system sounds the way it does. And what (perhaps very small thing) could be done to make it really come alive!

Or you could just go out and spend a wad on an all-McIntosh or even more on an all-Goldmund system, now possible in both brands from stylus-to-speakers, and tell yourself you're hearing the best sound money can buy. Enjoy!

I am too lazy after working as a technician all week to even think about doing this. I have enough classes to attend for work to do any extra electronic schematic studies. After upgrading to McIntosh I am listening to music, not the equipment anymore.
I don't worry about balanced or unbalanced circuits as my main concern now is listening to music, not circuit designs. I'll save that chore for when I am at work. I already spent a wad on McIntosh equipment and I would do it again as I am very satisfied with the sound I am hearing.:music:
Jim

 

[tonepub]

In the end, you have a great approach!

It's not that big of a diff either way. If you are the obsessed audiophile type and want to wring every last bit of performance out of your system, that's fine, but otherwise you are still getting great sound out of your system.

I've used all of those components and they are a very good match for a set of Vantages.

Sit back and enjoy!

 

[nsgarch]

I am too lazy after working as a technician all week to even think about doing this. I already spent a wad on McIntosh equipment and I would do it again as I am very satisfied with the sound I am hearing.Jim

Which is why McIntosh is so successful -- it's one of hi-end's few truly plug and play alternatives. I hope you didn't think I was dissing McIntosh. My MC275 is the best amp I ever paired with my CLS IIz's And it's monoblock mode is parallel, not "bridged": a truly balanced circuit design!

 

[jjay]

I

n the end, you have a great approach!

It's not that big of a diff either way. If you are the obsessed audiophile type and want to wring every last bit of performance out of your system, that's fine, but otherwise you are still getting great sound out of your system.

I've used all of those components and they are a very good match for a set of Vantages.

Sit back and enjoy!

I was not satisfied until I had the combination of McIntosh and ML Vantages. I had a RB1080 Rotel amplifier which with the combination of the Vantages and my great room, was really bright and glaring. For the first time I find myself not even thinking about what was wrong with my equipment but how good it sounds. CDs I had put away because they were ear bleeders sound fine with McIntosh. I am not an expert but for my ears, this is the best sounding equipment I have ever had. I have no problem with other members trying to get the best sound they can. I find I am not listening for flaws anymore because I just am not hearing any since I purchase McIntosh. With McIntosh+the ML Vantage speakers, all signs of excess brightness and glare is gone.
Jim

 

[Audioseduction]

I have balanced connections between my digital source being the Esoteric CDP, Pass Labs Pre and the Pass Labs Amp. When I listen to my music, I feel as if the equipment doesn’t exist and just a source of wonderful sounding music coming from that side of the room. Such sonic purity! :music: