Summit X is HERE! Official brochure from MartinLogan
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aliveatfive
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This will be my final post on the subject. I just want to clarify things. Sometime between 2005 and 2006 I decided that my Ascent i loudspeakers were somewhat deficient in some aspects of the audible spectrum. Around this time, MartinLogan announced the availability of a new product - the Summit. I guess I fell for the hype, although when I heard them at a dealer for the first time, I knew they possessed qualities which I had never experienced in Logans before. They were also a manageable size which appealed to me. Had they been $5,000 more expensive, would I have purchased them? Probably so. Cut to the release of the CLX. Had I the room, I would probably try to grab a pair assuming I could sell my Summits. (Not an ideal supposition.) Next, I start hearing things about a new speaker called the Summit X. My information came entirely from this forum. First reports indicated that the upgrade would eventually be made available as a retrofit. Bits and pieces of info began to trickle down from company sources especially through Jeff and others. We all then discovered that the Summit X was to exist as an entity only to itself. Frankly, I did not then, and still do not, understand the reasons why. I have been building electronic projects (and I still do) ever since I was a kid. I see the new crossovers have higher quality caps, and it should be no biggie to retrofit them to the board. To say the least, I was quite dissappointed. An irrational emotion? Quite possibly, but that's how I feel.
When the Summit X is finally reviewed, I am quite anxious to hear what the reviewers will say. Will the Summit X be a revelation or will it be barely different from the speaker which proceeded it? If I'm lead to the conclusion that the new speaker is revolutionary, I will be faced with a decision. Roger Sanders new speakers? Magnapans? Wilsons? Sonus Fabers? Summit X?
Quite honestly I'm (maybe irrationally) already prejudiced against the Summit X. Will I be able to buy better caps and replace those already in my crossover circuits? Can't answer yet with certainty. This episode has just caused me to re-think my blissful relationship with ML. There are other gals at this dance. Hey, no one ever accused audiophiles of being rational. I may be worse than most. Unfortunately, music is a passion and passions are frequently not dealt with on a rational level.
When the Summit X is finally reviewed, I am quite anxious to hear what the reviewers will say. Will the Summit X be a revelation or will it be barely different from the speaker which proceeded it? If I'm lead to the conclusion that the new speaker is revolutionary, I will be faced with a decision. Roger Sanders new speakers? Magnapans? Wilsons? Sonus Fabers? Summit X?
Quite honestly I'm (maybe irrationally) already prejudiced against the Summit X. Will I be able to buy better caps and replace those already in my crossover circuits? Can't answer yet with certainty. This episode has just caused me to re-think my blissful relationship with ML. There are other gals at this dance. Hey, no one ever accused audiophiles of being rational. I may be worse than most. Unfortunately, music is a passion and passions are frequently not dealt with on a rational level.
amey01
Well-known member
I think you feel a lot better with yourself now! Yes, obsolesence is intensely frustrating - not least because it reduces the value of your asset.
Absolutely - if it comes to the time when you are no longer happy with your Summits, wouldn't you evaluate everything anyway? That's what audiophiles do - evaluate everything in the price range and buy the one that suits you best. If I were buying speakers today, I wouldn't just blindly buy ML - just because five years ago when I bought my Summits they were the best at the price. To this end, just because the Summit X outperforms the old Summit (which I'm sure it will), it is no reason to get any more upset than if Sonus Faber or Wilson or Magnepan or anyone else brought out a speaker that outperformed the old Summit.
Oh - and you forgot Avalon!
Bear in mind also that if ML were to offer a retrofit, the existing Summits would have to be wholly and equally upgradeable - if (for example) the extra long feet fitted slightly differently or not as snugly as on a real pair of Summit Xs then ML couldn't risk people galavanting around claiming speakers were "Summit X" when in fact they were not the complete / real / whole thing.
Absolutely - if it comes to the time when you are no longer happy with your Summits, wouldn't you evaluate everything anyway? That's what audiophiles do - evaluate everything in the price range and buy the one that suits you best. If I were buying speakers today, I wouldn't just blindly buy ML - just because five years ago when I bought my Summits they were the best at the price. To this end, just because the Summit X outperforms the old Summit (which I'm sure it will), it is no reason to get any more upset than if Sonus Faber or Wilson or Magnepan or anyone else brought out a speaker that outperformed the old Summit.
Oh - and you forgot Avalon!
Bear in mind also that if ML were to offer a retrofit, the existing Summits would have to be wholly and equally upgradeable - if (for example) the extra long feet fitted slightly differently or not as snugly as on a real pair of Summit Xs then ML couldn't risk people galavanting around claiming speakers were "Summit X" when in fact they were not the complete / real / whole thing.
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aliveatfive
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I lied about not posting again. I don't feel better about anything concerning audio. If you can't tell, I'm still pi$$ed as hell. Please don't try to be so self-righteous. My previous post was not meant as a confession to you or others!
amey01
Well-known member
I certainly didn't intend it that way - I'm sorry if you took it that way. I would be p1ssed too - really! As I said, obsolesence is frustrating. I was merely trying to be "devil's advocate" in pointing out a few legitimate reasons why there may not be an upgrade available.
Put it this way, I'd be p1ssed by obsolescence whether there is an upgrade available or not - either way, you're still having money extracted from you, right? It sux.
More importantly, you've got good speakers, and if and when you want an upgrade, evaluate all offerings - not "just" ML or "anything but" ML - evaluate EVERYTHING. Only a fool would do otherwise.
Now what would be really nice is ML said "We're sorry we made a mistake with the original Summit and it wasn't as good as it could have been - we've fixed the product and would like to swap out your speakers"...........mmm, I can dream.
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aliveatfive,
I don't understand why you are so unhappy about all this unless you are truly dissatisfied with the sound of your Summits. Unless I missed it, I didn't notice anywhere that you stated you were unhappy with them. Only that you were unhappy with the way ML has handled the rollout of the X series.
If you are happy with the sound of your Summits, as I am with mine, then take a deep breath and relax. Once the X is out, you can audition them and read the reviews and learn more about the differences between them and the original. And in the context of time and experience, all of this will seem pretty minimal, I think. Sometimes the announcement of a new product from a favorite company just sends everyone into a tizzy and no one is happy with the change. And then, as the product settles in and people get more familiar with it, they relax and appreciate its benefits (assuming it is a great product). As I mentioned above, people all over this forum went through the same machinations when the Summit originally came out.
It's always good to question your allegiance to any brand and compare them against others of similar quality in deciding your next upgrade. But I know many members of this forum, myself included, have repeatedly auditioned other great speakers and keep coming back to ML because the others just don't provide the magic that ours do (I expect Sanders and Maggies probably come closer than any of the others you mentioned, though). At the same time, I am sure there are people that leave ML for some other brand and never look back.
It seems to me you are taking this product rollout personally because you bought the top of the line and are not allowed to upgrade it to the new model. It is not meant as a personal slap in the face to you and other Summit owners. It is a simple business decision that ML had to make. They have shown a willingness to provide upgrades when feasible, and according to sources were considering it in this case, but they obviously determined that it just wasn't feasible. If you are really as upset about that decision as you say, why not call or write ML directly and ask for a response to your question? Ask them, as an owner of their former flagship speaker, why exactly they decided to not allow upgrades to the new model. I expect that you will get a full and fair answer, but I don't know. I would be interested to hear what they tell you, though.
I find it interesting that some folks buy whatever ML speaker they can afford, and own it joyfully for fifteen or twenty years before upgrading. Others absolutely must own the top-of-the-line new model every time it comes out or they are just not satisfied with their systems. This puts them on the roller coaster of changing out their speakers and shelling out big bucks every two to four years, and they are never satisfied for very long with what they have. Personally, I think that is a sad state of affairs. My suggestion, again, is to just sit back, relax, and enjoy the beautiful music your Summits are making and stop worrying about whether the midrange is as clear and open as it could be if you could just upgrade to the X version. If you enjoy what you have, what does it matter what new products the company is bringing out? The grass is not always greener.
As for the Summits, they were an incredible deal when they first came out. They were priced the same as the Prodigies before them, and that is pretty unusual in this business, especially for a top-of-the-line upgrade as radically different as the Summit was from the Prodigy. ML could have easily charged twelve grand or more for them right off the bat and most folks that wanted them would not have batted an eye. So it is not surprising that the X series will see a pretty good price jump. That is just the way business works. You have to recoup money from product development and you have to keep up with inflationary pressures and keep up with your peers in charging what the market will bear. The top speakers from other great companies are not cheap either, and I don't expect any of them always offer an upgrade path to a new model.
My expectation is that the Summit X will sound a little better than the Summit, but not enough to make it worth the cost and effort of upgrading. I felt, and still feel, the same way about the Ascents. My Ascents are original and I never felt the need to upgrade them to the Ascent i's. And, according to sources at ML, the Ascent i upgrade was more about esthetics than real performance improvements anyway. Now the CLX may be worth upgrading to, if I had the room, but is it's sound quality worth twice the price I paid for my Summits? Does it sound twice as good as the Summits? I seriously doubt it. So I think I will just relax and enjoy my Summits until I have a little more space and the CLX's are on the 'gon for half price.
I don't understand why you are so unhappy about all this unless you are truly dissatisfied with the sound of your Summits. Unless I missed it, I didn't notice anywhere that you stated you were unhappy with them. Only that you were unhappy with the way ML has handled the rollout of the X series.
If you are happy with the sound of your Summits, as I am with mine, then take a deep breath and relax. Once the X is out, you can audition them and read the reviews and learn more about the differences between them and the original. And in the context of time and experience, all of this will seem pretty minimal, I think. Sometimes the announcement of a new product from a favorite company just sends everyone into a tizzy and no one is happy with the change. And then, as the product settles in and people get more familiar with it, they relax and appreciate its benefits (assuming it is a great product). As I mentioned above, people all over this forum went through the same machinations when the Summit originally came out.
It's always good to question your allegiance to any brand and compare them against others of similar quality in deciding your next upgrade. But I know many members of this forum, myself included, have repeatedly auditioned other great speakers and keep coming back to ML because the others just don't provide the magic that ours do (I expect Sanders and Maggies probably come closer than any of the others you mentioned, though). At the same time, I am sure there are people that leave ML for some other brand and never look back.
It seems to me you are taking this product rollout personally because you bought the top of the line and are not allowed to upgrade it to the new model. It is not meant as a personal slap in the face to you and other Summit owners. It is a simple business decision that ML had to make. They have shown a willingness to provide upgrades when feasible, and according to sources were considering it in this case, but they obviously determined that it just wasn't feasible. If you are really as upset about that decision as you say, why not call or write ML directly and ask for a response to your question? Ask them, as an owner of their former flagship speaker, why exactly they decided to not allow upgrades to the new model. I expect that you will get a full and fair answer, but I don't know. I would be interested to hear what they tell you, though.
I find it interesting that some folks buy whatever ML speaker they can afford, and own it joyfully for fifteen or twenty years before upgrading. Others absolutely must own the top-of-the-line new model every time it comes out or they are just not satisfied with their systems. This puts them on the roller coaster of changing out their speakers and shelling out big bucks every two to four years, and they are never satisfied for very long with what they have. Personally, I think that is a sad state of affairs. My suggestion, again, is to just sit back, relax, and enjoy the beautiful music your Summits are making and stop worrying about whether the midrange is as clear and open as it could be if you could just upgrade to the X version. If you enjoy what you have, what does it matter what new products the company is bringing out? The grass is not always greener.
As for the Summits, they were an incredible deal when they first came out. They were priced the same as the Prodigies before them, and that is pretty unusual in this business, especially for a top-of-the-line upgrade as radically different as the Summit was from the Prodigy. ML could have easily charged twelve grand or more for them right off the bat and most folks that wanted them would not have batted an eye. So it is not surprising that the X series will see a pretty good price jump. That is just the way business works. You have to recoup money from product development and you have to keep up with inflationary pressures and keep up with your peers in charging what the market will bear. The top speakers from other great companies are not cheap either, and I don't expect any of them always offer an upgrade path to a new model.
My expectation is that the Summit X will sound a little better than the Summit, but not enough to make it worth the cost and effort of upgrading. I felt, and still feel, the same way about the Ascents. My Ascents are original and I never felt the need to upgrade them to the Ascent i's. And, according to sources at ML, the Ascent i upgrade was more about esthetics than real performance improvements anyway. Now the CLX may be worth upgrading to, if I had the room, but is it's sound quality worth twice the price I paid for my Summits? Does it sound twice as good as the Summits? I seriously doubt it. So I think I will just relax and enjoy my Summits until I have a little more space and the CLX's are on the 'gon for half price.
aliveatfive
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Rich -
A post with which I can agree! What we have here is a marketing strategy that does not make me happy. Yes I do like the sound of my Summits. Yes I've heard better. Once the reviews are in I suppose we can all become more rational over this. However, I'll open up another can of worms by saying that your own 2 ears are the best arbiter of audio quality. Unfortunately for me, the last 2 local dealers to carry Logans just went out of business. It will be very difficult for me to hear the top of the product line. (And this is in NYC!) My ultimate decision may have already been made for me!
A post with which I can agree! What we have here is a marketing strategy that does not make me happy. Yes I do like the sound of my Summits. Yes I've heard better. Once the reviews are in I suppose we can all become more rational over this. However, I'll open up another can of worms by saying that your own 2 ears are the best arbiter of audio quality. Unfortunately for me, the last 2 local dealers to carry Logans just went out of business. It will be very difficult for me to hear the top of the product line. (And this is in NYC!) My ultimate decision may have already been made for me!
tonepub
Senior Member
I think unless you have taken the rest of your system as far as it can go, there's still a lot more sound lurking in your Summits to be had by upgrading your system, or room.
When I still had the Summits (and still have the Spire) I can get much better sound out of those speakers with world class electronics than I can get out of the CLX with mediocre electronics, so I wouldn't be so bummed about the Summit.
Heck, it's not like computers where Apple releases a better laptop (for less money, usually) every six months!
The Summit is still an incredibly good speaker.
When I still had the Summits (and still have the Spire) I can get much better sound out of those speakers with world class electronics than I can get out of the CLX with mediocre electronics, so I wouldn't be so bummed about the Summit.
Heck, it's not like computers where Apple releases a better laptop (for less money, usually) every six months!
The Summit is still an incredibly good speaker.
DrJRapp
Well-known member
They could always create a Summit i.
Bernard
Well-known member
I hear the Summit X i is just round the corner.
.....just kidding !!
.....just kidding !!
amey01
Well-known member
Good idea!
When the Summit was announced in Jan. 2005 were those of you that owned Prodigy's upset that a new speaker had been released?
The Summit was a new generation with what ML's latest R&D technology had produced.
In 2005 when the Summit was released I would think they were working on the technology that has created the CLX in 2008. The Summit was the next step from the Prodigy to advancement in panel and smaller bass cabinet design.
The Summit X is just another step in the progression of products. For what ever reason they choose to unveil it in the CLX before the Summit X.
I don't think any of the Summit owners here would have not wanted to see a potential advancement of the product line.
I don't know of any company that announces much further ahead of a new product to replace an existing one than ML did.
None of us like to see a company replace a product that we own with something they tout as better. That is just the way it works.
It does seem that if the Summit is not going to be upgradeable they might have given it another name. Didn't Spire replaced another speaker in the line (sorry I am not familiar with all the products). It was given a new name not an X
That said many other products have been given the i designation.
Can someone tell me if other products were upgradeable to an "i". I could not find that information.
The Summit was a new generation with what ML's latest R&D technology had produced.
In 2005 when the Summit was released I would think they were working on the technology that has created the CLX in 2008. The Summit was the next step from the Prodigy to advancement in panel and smaller bass cabinet design.
The Summit X is just another step in the progression of products. For what ever reason they choose to unveil it in the CLX before the Summit X.
I don't think any of the Summit owners here would have not wanted to see a potential advancement of the product line.
I don't know of any company that announces much further ahead of a new product to replace an existing one than ML did.
None of us like to see a company replace a product that we own with something they tout as better. That is just the way it works.
It does seem that if the Summit is not going to be upgradeable they might have given it another name. Didn't Spire replaced another speaker in the line (sorry I am not familiar with all the products). It was given a new name not an X
That said many other products have been given the i designation.
Can someone tell me if other products were upgradeable to an "i". I could not find that information.
TomDac
former MLO owner/operator
I don't see why some of you are getting your panties all in a bunch over the Summit X.
The introduction of the Spire and now Summit X will not change the fact that the Summit is an outstanding loudspeaker.
MartinLogan learns new things when developing a flagship product such as the CLX and then incorporates these new things into other products in their lineup. This is how they've always done it... Things they learned when developing the Statement e2 were put into other products as well.
This is what improves all of their products!! This is not a money making scheme, it's the natural progression of a product line, and it's what makes ML grow as a company and it's what makes their products continue to get better.
The Summit X could've just as easily be called the Summit i... "i" always stood for "improved" with the older ML products. They chose to use "X" because the improvements were derived from the CLX. I think that is simply a marketing thing... Would you feel better if it was called Summit i?
I feel that the "X" version (or in the past, the "i" version) is not a reason to upgrade. I, for one, will not be selling my Summits to get the Summit X.
So, to recap:
Summit X could not be possible without the CLX.
The cart cannot go before the horse...
Now turn on your system and listen to some music!! That's what it's all about, anyway!!! :rocker:
The introduction of the Spire and now Summit X will not change the fact that the Summit is an outstanding loudspeaker.
MartinLogan learns new things when developing a flagship product such as the CLX and then incorporates these new things into other products in their lineup. This is how they've always done it... Things they learned when developing the Statement e2 were put into other products as well.
This is what improves all of their products!! This is not a money making scheme, it's the natural progression of a product line, and it's what makes ML grow as a company and it's what makes their products continue to get better.
The Summit X could've just as easily be called the Summit i... "i" always stood for "improved" with the older ML products. They chose to use "X" because the improvements were derived from the CLX. I think that is simply a marketing thing... Would you feel better if it was called Summit i?
I feel that the "X" version (or in the past, the "i" version) is not a reason to upgrade. I, for one, will not be selling my Summits to get the Summit X.
So, to recap:
Summit X could not be possible without the CLX.
The cart cannot go before the horse...
Now turn on your system and listen to some music!! That's what it's all about, anyway!!! :rocker:
tonepub
Senior Member
Good post, Tom!
MiTT
Super User
Well, actually Tom, it IS a money making scheme. If Martin Logan were to develop a speaker like the original Summit, and then stop all R&D effort and never make another new speaker, how long do you think they would last?
I am charged with Vitality in my company. I need to insure that at least 30% of our net revenue comes from new products and I am only allowed to claim Vitality on any given product for 3 years after it's launch. How long do you think my company could survive without continuous product improvement? How long do you think I would have a job?
Bottom line is that Vitality increases investor confidence that a company is more than stable, that it is innovative. THAT's how you grow a business.
TomDac
former MLO owner/operator
Tim,
in that respect, it indeed is to grow the company, but it's not meant to screw us Summit owners over, which is kind of how I interpreted the tone of some of the posts in this thread..
in that respect, it indeed is to grow the company, but it's not meant to screw us Summit owners over, which is kind of how I interpreted the tone of some of the posts in this thread..
aliveatfive
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Well then, I suppose the people who bought Ascent is were responsible for a terrible loss in ML profits. You can interpret this situation any way you want. I'm sure additional profit motive was one of the prime movers. Are they entitled to do this? Absolutely! Do I (or we) have to upgrade? No!
TomDac
former MLO owner/operator
Like I said... don't upgrade just to have the latest and greatest...
MiTT
Super User
Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with the decisions Martin Logan is making. They are continuing to develop and improve their products. If they didn't have such an agressive posture I doubt they'd be around at all 3-4 years from now.
Entitled? Are you kidding? Not only are they entitled, they are darn near REQUIRED to continuously upgrade their products if they want to stay in business. Do any of us "have" to upgrade? Of course not. You can listen to your Summits in perfect bliss and harmony for the next twenty years, and ML will be quite happy for you.
That is, if you can possibly enjoy listening to the mediocre sound of your outdated Summits with full knowledge that the unbelievable midrange clarity and openness of the Summit X is out there and available to you for just a few thousand more dollars . . . :devil:
