Strand count

[CLIFF]

Hi all, without getting into a raging discussion on the merits of different cables,has anyone heard any difference between low and high strand counts on copper speaker wire??
The reason i ask ,is i have been using 400 strand 8awg ,bi amped copper wire ,and recently swapped to 12awg solid anti cable.
After run in, it lacked base, so i doubled it, which then became 9awg, still lacked base!! Going on what everyone thinks is a good guage to use,i should be on the money? But no base? So whats wrong ??? Does this mean there is more to skin effect than all the {experts} say?? I am only interested in those who have heard with their own ears,
i can get some 8 awg wire with a 1200 strand count , but thought i would throw it out there,to see if there are any takers on an explanation. {yes i know its to make the wire more flexable} :}}}}
9 awg bi amped, should give me same amount of base, because after all, we are talking about 9 awg going to every terminal,this should be overkill!!! Let the discussion begin

 

[Bevensee]

I don't think you lack of bass has anything to do with skin-effect. Skin-effect has no meaning at audio frequencies. And certainly not in the bass. If you were hearing skin-effect, you would hear it as a rolled-off treble.

It is more likely that the cable configuration introduces some kind of bad impedance match with your speakers at low frequencies. If you compare the layout of the two cables, they are probably very different, and will therefore have very different inductance (L) and capacitance (C). Most likely, the solid core cable has a combination of L and C vales that interacts with the bass driver and crossover in a non-optimum way. For a standard multi-stand cable, L and C are both reasonably low, but for some exotic cables, one of them can be quite high.

Can you share more information about the cables and speakers in question?

 

[CLIFF]

Okay, now we are getting somewhere, speakers--- oddysys.--- bi amped.
speaker cable----anti cable, 12 awg , ofc, solid core , occ, cryo,ed ,and doubled up. insulation is same thin coating as armiture wire!!
configuration---1
twisted together----
resistance 0.00318 ohms/foot run
inductance 0.30uH/foot run
capacitance 0.048nf/foot run
configuration----2
with two wires ,spread 6--12 inches apart
resistance 0.00318 ohms/foot run
inductance 0.82uH/foot run
capacitance 0.045nF/foot run .
so what is your view of the above?

 

[Speedskater]

How do you spread the two conductors 6 to 12 inch apart, with no significant change in capacitance?

In the second configuration with low impedance speakers (at high frequencies) you will have reduced treble response.
How reduced? Well that depends on the speakers and the length of the cables.

 

[roberto]

Hola Cliff. How long are your speaker cables? Had you tried silver? If you have over 20' for each cable, its ok to use a heavy gauge, but, with much respect, if you are about 12 to 15' away, 14 gauge T-14 from DHLabs, (www.silversonic.com) will work nicely with outstanding low frequency info. Its copper with a heavy silver plated, and the sound is very good. Yes, I know that out there are better cables, but for what you paid and what you got, they are really a winner. Write to them and ask for Greg. He is a very nice and knowledge person.

 

[Victor]

Silver, Roberto? :O
Your intentions are good but invoking silver for L/S cables is like opening a blank chequebook, my friend... ;^)
The percentage difference in conductivity between pure silver and pure copper is very small.
Surely far better to mess around with length & topology?

I've not compared 400 strand to 1200 strand but if they were similar CSA and same topology I doubt that you would hear much of a difference (although electrostats are quite revealing in this respect). Treating the cable as a component the measured R/L/C properties will dictate the sound. Paralleling conductors will correspondingly reduce the Inductance and resistance of the cable. This will also increase the mutual inductance depending on how the wire is configured?

The simplest way to guarantee a massive reduction in R/L/C is to halve the length of the cable e.g. from standard 5m loom to 2.5m.
It'll be like buying a vastly superior cable without spending any extra money. Moreover you could probably parallel the offcuts and reduce R & L further.
Such a cable, made from simple, inexpensive elements could outperform cables costing $$$$s.

The only caveats are that some amplifiers are L or C sensitive and might become unstable. (e.g. older Naim amps were capacitance sensitive, prompting Naim to manufacture its own low-C cables)
R.Saunders white paper explains in some detail the negative side effects of undoing the Stat designer's made-for-purpose low inductance transformers by having too much inductance in the cable.

If straightforward, the simplest and least complicated action is to divide the cable in half (or whatever stretches easily to each L/S) and re-terminate the other end.
I've been using a 2.2m pair for many years (and compared) and don't feel the need to invest in expensive cables.
Hope this helps

 

[roberto]

Hahahahaha, well, perhaps I did not explain well. I do not want you to spend $$$$ just enough for a good sounding cables made of silver. I believe that the silver quality sound on ML is more detail and precise than copper. But all this is just a matter of liking. I do know that specs counts, but our ears too. Sometimes cables with outstanding specifications, when you test them, something is too different, and perhaps not as musical as the less expensive ones. As an example, Nordost Red Dawn vs Blue Heaven. I did like better the Blue Heaven, and its specs are not as good as the Red Dawn. If you want to put a lot of stripes, copper is the way to go, but you could buy used cables for a fraction of their costs, and are a good sounding cables too.

 

[Victor]

Apologies Roberto
I did not intend to come across as a "flat-Earther".

BTW...for interest, I did compare the cables you mention to my inexpensive "home made" ones and the Nordosts sounded very artificial by comparison.
However, I don't deny that some people out there could accidentally hit on a perfect match for their rig. ;^)
Live and let live.
All the best,

 

[CLIFF]

Hi guys,thanks for the robust replies, like i originaly said, the anti cables are not producing base,[ specs given are their specs} when compaired to the 8awg 400 strand cable.
My cables are allready short at about 3 to 4 foot.
My amp is a mosfet design , redgum, modded by the manufacturer with more head room for the odysseys. The amp is efortless ,plenty of grunt.
Yep roberto , took your advise , and i am looking at silver speaker cable , diy , and off the shelf.
Victor, i suspect we are of similar age ,the rca logo has long gone from australia, may still be going in the uk ?? They used to make some very good valve radio stuff in the forties and fifties,here. Heres a question for you, whats the name of the little dog in the hmv logo???
Anyway, getting off topic,.
I will get the 1200 strand cable 8awg , just to hear for myself ,any other imput out there on this ??

 

[roberto]

Apologies Roberto
I did not intend to come across as a "flat-Earther".

BTW...for interest, I did compare the cables you mention to my inexpensive "home made" ones and the Nordosts sounded very artificial by comparison.
However, I don't deny that some people out there could accidentally hit on a perfect match for their rig. ;^)
Live and let live.
All the best,

There is no need to...we all have sometimes different opinion and liking. But we do like one thing for sure: Martin Logan speakers!

 

[roberto]

Cliff, I can't remember the name of a "theorem" (Kaufer or Copher or Kopher) that claims that any device with an electric signal applied to any amp, preamp, etc, has a rejection of this same signal for about 1.33 meters. A reason why your cables should be at least 1.5m long, balanced, speakers, or RCAs. This size (1.5m) exhibits a better sound stage and right with the size of the musical instruments.
Musical instruments are the ones that you usually find in a symphonic orchestra. Always start with solo or very few musical instruments on your tests. Always use what you are used to, and well known recordings. You won't be confused.
If your components are very close and there is no need for this size, just let the hang over, but never make a roll. You can make a coil, and spoil some bass info.
Many might think I am crazy saying these things, and perhaps you might be right. Just...trust your ears, let them be your judge. They will tell you the truth. Believe in them. Trust in your liking. And forget about specs. You had enough with specs, and now look what you have and listen. All specs are similar, and the truth is, they do sound very different than the others, right?
Happy listening!

 

[Bernard]

Cliff, that dog is "Little Nipper".

 

[Speedskater]

'roberto' I don't think that you are crazy, just very gullible.
But that 'theorem' is just totally nuts.

 

[CLIFF]

Bernard, well done ,i wasnt expecting any come back on that one:}}} from memory?? A jack russel??

 

[CLIFF]

Roberto, i am with you mate! Trust your ears.
Thats a theorem i havent heard about ? I will put it to the test next time i change out some cables. It may not apply in this case, both the solid anti cable and the 8 awg multy strand wire are the same length , so maybe something else is to blame here??

 

[roberto]

Cliff, as you do know, sound is a matter of liking. What I do like, not necessary have to be your liking. The more strands you have, the less resistance is.
On the other hand, I am a tube user. I do like tubes a lot. When I graduated from College, my first job what an engineer assistant in broadcast TV channel 7. I used, at that time, serviced the channel's repeaters. All repeaters were tubed, so I started to understand and learn about tubes. My mentor and dear friend, Eng. Gerardo Guzman, guided me through all the steps to mark the sound carrier and video carrier at the scope, with 4MHz of bandwidth. And also, the showed curve must be as flat as possible. The alignment procedure took sometimes over 6 to 7 hours of continue work. But it was fun to serviced them.
So, I learn about the harmonic distortion, where with tubes are even, making this feature to have the right timbre with tubes. On SS, the harmonic distortion is odd, and this kind is very easy to listen it. The MOS FETs, are the SS devices that acts like tubes. Their behavior are very similar.
Right now, I am using a mod. VT-100MK3. Al the resistors at the signal path, were changed and also the capacitors. The sound is lovely. I am very impressed with the new version of the stat panels that the latest Martin Logan models are using. There is more extension at the highs, and truly outstanding dynamics. Try to audition them. I have a power point presentation with the new panels vs old panels.
There is no blame for your cables, just a different approach for your ears...worth a try!
Happy listening.

 

[Bernard]

Bernard, well done ,i wasnt expecting any come back on that one:}}} from memory?? A jack russel??

Yes, from memory. No idea about the type of dog.

 

[Northy]

Hi Cliff,

Based on a recommendation on these pages, I ordered bi-amp, silver wires from Signal Cable. Let me tell you, they have made my Theos sound excellent. The bass is vice-grip tight and the treble silky smooth. Contact Frank at Signal Cable and you will be very pleased. The pricess are reasonable.

 

[CLIFF]

Cheers northy,just trying to make my mind up, as to, if i go diy, or buy. Like most of us blokes ,i am happiest when i have a project of some sort .
I must say i have pure silver interconnects , darwin cable , and i really like them, i may be better off with copper interconnects, if going to silver speaker cable, only time will tell!! More extras to swap in or out :}}

 

[CLIFF]

Hi bernard ,my sort of humour :}}}