Sold the Dell laptop and want a MacBook.. any advice?

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Macs run Windows seamlessly now. Likewise, all of the other issues you list that you had are just not issues any more.

No more arguments, but I'm genuinely interested now.

So are you saying that I can copy a Windows *.exe file to a Mac, double click it and have it run on the Mac exactly as it would run on the PC? I'm acutally interested in how this works. If that's the case, why does anybody bother with a Mac version of anything?

Can Macs be locked down on the corporate desktop with Group Policy now?

A quick search looks like there are still issues getting Macs to connect to Juniper VPNs.

Also, how do you find banking websites - there were issues with Macs accessing these, however surely that is long ago resolved?
 
Hey all..

I didn't really mean to start a flame war. Mac vs. Windows has long been a huge debate...

I always used Windows just because I never got any exposure to Mac stuff... I always heard they were easy to use, but there weren't as many software titles available... and I just never had a reason to use a Mac.

I think that generally speaking, XP has been a great OS and Vista was created to milk the consumers out of money, which really pi$ses me off. There were absolutely no reasons for me to upgrade from XP to Vista, but when Kerry bought our Dell laptop, there was no choice for OS.. It was Vista.

Dell now offers a "downgrade" option for XP. So we gave it a try and we both thought it was a giant step back from XP.

A friend of ours asked, "Why not just get XP and put it on there"? My response to that was, "F_CK THAT!!! Why should I have to shell out even more money to Microsoft because Vista sucks donkey?"

Microsoft should provide a FREE "downgrade" (it's realy an upgrade if you ask me) path to XP from Vista.

So we sold the Dell and the Mac is making us rethink alot of things.. like what we have on our desktops at home... sigh. When it's time to get new desktops, you can bet we'll be considering Macs.

I think MS totally missed the mark on Office 2007 also, but that's another story... :p
 
Hey all..

I didn't really mean to start a flame war. Mac vs. Windows has long been a huge debate...

I always used Windows just because I never got any exposure to Mac stuff... I always heard they were easy to use, but there weren't as many software titles available... and I just never had a reason to use a Mac.

I think that generally speaking, XP has been a great OS and Vista was created to milk the consumers out of money, which really pi$ses me off. There were absolutely no reasons for me to upgrade from XP to Vista, but when Kerry bought our Dell laptop, there was no choice for OS.. It was Vista.

Dell now offers a "downgrade" option for XP. So we gave it a try and we both thought it was a giant step back from XP.

A friend of ours asked, "Why not just get XP and put it on there"? My response to that was, "F_CK THAT!!! Why should I have to shell out even more money to Microsoft because Vista sucks donkey?"

Microsoft should provide a FREE "downgrade" (it's realy an upgrade if you ask me) path to XP from Vista.

So we sold the Dell and the Mac is making us rethink alot of things.. like what we have on our desktops at home... sigh. When it's time to get new desktops, you can bet we'll be considering Macs.

I think MS totally missed the mark on Office 2007 also, but that's another story... :p

Ahh, technology, it sucks doesn't it. It all misses the mark some way in my opinion. What p1sses me off even more is there is no reason it needs to miss the mark - it's either lazy developers or planned obsolesence - it could be nothing else. But it's such a shame that in 2008 we don't have acceptable technology.

Windows is shocking, but in my opinion (no more arguments, just my opinion) it's the best option out there. Likewise, the iPod has far too many unnecessary shortcomings, but again - it's the best portable media player out there (and yes, I have one).

I am very interested why you hated Vista so much. XP was a great OS, and ahead of its time, Vista is perhaps not so avantgarde, but is certainly not backward. It runs smoothly and is as stable as an OS will get. It runs for longer periods of time than my Solaris based Squeezebox server, although that does have the disadvantage of running on an IBM Netfinity Pentium II with 128 MB RAM. Just out of interest, what were the specs on your Dell?
 
No more arguments, but I'm genuinely interested now.

So are you saying that I can copy a Windows *.exe file to a Mac, double click it and have it run on the Mac exactly as it would run on the PC? I'm acutally interested in how this works. If that's the case, why does anybody bother with a Mac version of anything?

Can Macs be locked down on the corporate desktop with Group Policy now?

A quick search looks like there are still issues getting Macs to connect to Juniper VPNs.

Also, how do you find banking websites - there were issues with Macs accessing these, however surely that is long ago resolved?

Now you are asking technical questions to a lawyer. I am good at arguing, not answering real questions. ;)

You run Windows on a Mac using boot camp, which is included in Leopard. Here is Apple's description page of it.

I think the Mac versions are for people that want the compatibility with certain programs, like Office or Photoshop, but don't wish to purchase and install a Windows operating system on their Macs. I mean, most of us bought Macs because we were trying to get AWAY from Microsoft. But the boot camp option is there for those who wish to use it.

Your other questions I am really not qualified to answer. Perhaps Richard can jump in with his knowledge. I know my father-in-law is running a mixed PC/Mac network system in the Biotech Institute that he runs, so I know you can do it. But I am not a technical person, so I couldn't explain the details of what works and what doesn't.

Funny, you mention stability of the Operating System in your last post. I have never once had my Mac OS crash on me on any of our three Macs in the past few years that I have owned them. I used to deal with Windows crashing every few months or so. Just one more reason why I was so happy after I switched.


TomDac,

Like you, I always used Windows because it was just what I knew and I never thought I had a reason to switch. But as I became more and more disenchanted with my last computer purchase, something amazing happened. My father-in-law gave me an iMac for Christmas. I started using it just to see what all the fuss was about, and I have been a Mac devotee ever since. I switched between the Mac and the PC for a few weeks, and then I got all my stuff moved over to the Mac and have hardly cranked up the PC since then.
 
I didn't really mean to start a flame war. Mac vs. Windows has long been a huge debate...

Tom, The Mac vs. Windows thing isn't a debate, and never has been a debate. Saying that is like saying that there is a petroleum dependency vs alternative fuels debate.

My point is that the only people who are debating the viablity of these outdated systems are people who have a vested interest in their perpetuation.

When someone with a better idea proposed that an outmoded system be replaced, the "keepers of the standard" always shout and cry and rend their garments with protestations of doom, despair, and apocalypse...

Gasoline, Windows-based OS's, fiat currency, interest-based economies, marginalization of females, sexual oppression, religious intollerance--these are all things that have been "standards" at one tme or another, and are becoming out-moded as people realise there are better alternatives...

The Mac vs Windows "debate" isn't just a "platform war", and that seems to be what most Windows people just don't get. They make fun of Mac folk, saying that we are "brainwashed" or that the Mac OS is more of a religion than an OS, and they say these things with derisive dismissal. But what they are missing is that they are correct in many ways. The Mac vs. Windows thing is like the Corporate vs entrepreneur dichotomy in current socio-economics. On one side you have a monolithic corporate machine that is fundamentally concerned with control, limitation, security, and maintaining the status quo. On the other hand, you have a cadre of autonomous agents, who operate on concurrent levels, mentally, socially and ideologically multitasking, and are concerned with creating a world based on cooperation, creativity, and the sharing of information.

Windows users BELIEVE they have the answers to a perfect, orderly world.

Mac users KNOW that the Gods of Computing are on our side.

The digital domain is a sort of virtual Afganistan, and if you know your history, you know that the small, autonomous, highly motivated creative bands will ALWAYS triumph over the monolithic machine. It's been that way for thousands of years, and will continue to be that way until the stars cease to shine.

This is not a platform war. It is not fundamentally about computers at all. The Mac vs Windows "debate" is an ideological war, and encapsulates the struggle of autonomy against control, individualism against collectiveism, marching to one's own drum against marching in formation...

And the very fact that the Windows crowd doesn't get this ideological subtlety is to be their downfall. Sitting in the glory of their "standards" and basking in their "universality of implementation", they will slowly be overtaken by a more creative, innovative, and resourceful culture--one that is battle-hardened from decades of oppression and discrimination and exploitation--and eventually the "people" will demand what we have been offering for over 20 years--an alternative that works better, faster, and more efficiently...

When Windows XP was released in 2001, they had a VERY innovative and glitzy ad campaign on TV and in print.

The ad agency that developed and prodced that campaign was a Mac-only shop, and even the "Windows" screen shots on the user's desktops in that TV commercial were done on Macs.

The illusion is crumbling. The "standard" is being shown for it's true nature--a system of control.

Truth will out.
 
That's an interesting take, Richard. For me, it is much simpler than that. I just want more value for my money.

I want well-designed hardware that works for me and doesn't break because of poor engineering. Hardware that both looks good and functions without fail for years to come. Hardware that is intuitive to use.

I want well-written software, that accomplishes things with my interests in mind. Software that does cool things. Software that makes it fun to be on my computer, not frustrating. Software that comes with my computer instead of being a costly add-on. Software that doesn't get slowed down with inefficient programming. Software programs that are designed to play together well, sync together, and increase functionality multifold because of the smart way in which it was designed. Software that allows my various hardware devices (computers, phone, television, audio system, etc.) to work together seamlessly to provide me with greater functionality across all platforms. Software that makes it easier for me to do the things that interest me, to hear and buy music, movies, etc., to store and edit my photos and movies, and share them with family and friends, to create interesting products like cards, calendars and books, to communicate with others in a variety of ways, and so on, and so on, and so on.

I just want to be happy with my technology and proud of what I can do with it, rather than cursing it every time I boot up.

Apple gives me all of this. Windows never did. End of story.
 
No more arguments, but I'm genuinely interested now.

Actually, we haven't been arguing. You've been telling us that Macs suck for several days, and we've been telling you, in return, that not only do they not suck, but EVERYTHING that Windows has ever claimed as an innovation was actually developed and implemented by Apple years before.

And we will continue to do this, in a calm, factual, sharing way until either you see the errors of your ways, or you experience so much internal cognitive dissonance that you just give up and go away. ;)


So are you saying that I can copy a Windows *.exe file to a Mac, double click it and have it run on the Mac exactly as it would run on the PC? I'm acutally interested in how this works. If that's the case, why does anybody bother with a Mac version of anything?

If you have Windows installed on a partition of your Mac's HD, and are running Windows native (not using an interpreter or "OS simulator", which you can do now on a Mac!) then YES. In fact, using a variety of solutions, this has been possible on Macs for about 10 years, IF that ".exe" file was written to proper specs, and didn't directly address oddball ports, or make any sort of weird calls to hidden bits of processor-direct code.

So why have a Mac version of anything, you ask? Well, frankly, it's because many Mac-native "versions" of software are just plain better, faster, and more stable. Any application that relies heavily on graphical display, from image manilpulation to video processing, to plotting mathematical graphs in real-time, will run faster and with more stability on a Mac, due to the integral nature of a GUI with th eMac OS and chipset. You've got to remember that displaying ANYTHING in a GUI on a Windows machine entails a LOT of coding backflips and contortions to trick the OS in thinking it is capable of doing something it is inherently not designed to do. On a Mac, the graphical interface is actually part of the chipset, and has been since 1983...

The funny thing about running Windows on a Mac is that for the last 2 years, PC World Magazine has named a Mac as teh fastest laptop for running Windows--Windows XP in 2006, and Windows Vista in 2007. The truth is that not only does Windows run on a Mac, but it runs faster and with more stability on a Mac...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/136649-3/in_pictures_the_most_notable_notebooks_of_2007.html

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/irony/macbook-pro-is-the-fastest-windows-vista-notebook-317060.php

Well, this isn't ENTIRELY true. PC World found one non-Mac laptop that beet the MacBookPro--a Eurocom D900C Phantom-x:

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/30538/review/d900c_phantomx.html

The only catch is that the Eurocom is 1) twice as expensive as even a Mac, 2) weighs almost twice as much, is 2.5 times as thick (2.5" vs the Mac's 1" thickness), has pretty much a non-existant battery life, and has a weak, washed-out, glarey screen. So yeah, there IS a windows-only laptop that beats the Mac, but it's twice as expensive, twice as thick, and doesn't work as well...


Can Macs be locked down on the corporate desktop with Group Policy now?

And this, dear friend is where you and I (and Mac users and Window Users) find our fundamental bone of contention. Such a requirement--locking down an individual's desktop in a corporate environment--is a specification that fundamentally ASSUMES that the individual user is untrustworthy, hostile, and incapable of functioning effectively without the imposition of harsh limitations on the usability of their own workstation.

As a professional with over 20 years experience in both the graphic design and computer systems fields, I resent the implication that my every interaction with a corporate computer over a "trusted" connection is inherently, and by it's very nature, considered a hostile intrusion. I resent the implication that the software on my computer--the tools of my trade--are considered as a clear and present threat by a company that employs me. This attitude of hostility toward employees fosters an attitude of mutual disrespect, and in fact CAUSES employees to "break bad". When you treat people with trust, respect, and care, they return the courtesy. When you treat people with scorn, suspicion, and paranoia, your worst nightmares will most likely come true...

Besides, the idea of locking down a remote desktop in a corporate environment for "safety" or "security" reasons is a fundamentally flawed methodology for implementing network security. It is a lazy way of securing a fundamentally un-securable server architecture (Windows) by preventing the remotely accessing units from doing anything "bad" by crippling their functionality. If Windows servers were actually capable of being securely configured, you wouldn't need to worry about what applications your remote users were running on their PCs.

The whole concept of remote user lockdown is fundamentally lazy on a technical level, essentially offensive on a socio-psychological level, and primarily a memetic smokescreen as far as true system security is concerned.


A quick search looks like there are still issues getting Macs to connect to Juniper VPNs.

This is not because of the way Macs work. It is because Juniper is slow to release Mac compatible updated to their VPN client in a timely manner concurrent with Mac OS updates. They usually wait for Apple to develop the patches, then tell users it's an "Apple problem". When Windows updates their OS however, Juniper (and most other big corporate networking companies) will actually work directly with Micro$oft and have Micro$oft bundle their updates with new released of the Windows updates...


Also, how do you find banking websites - there were issues with Macs accessing these, however surely that is long ago resolved?

This is because most banking websites use Windows servers, and their interface is "optimized" to work with with the IE browser, both of which use a version of 128-bit encryption that is proprietary to Windows and is, in fact, not completely compliant with IETF specs.

The funny thing about this is that Apple's Safari was shipping an AITF-compliant 128-bit secure version about 2 years before 128-bit security became "standard" on IE. And now, years after that, the Micro$oft version of 128-bit encryption is STILL not really "standard" although it has become so ubiquitous that the true standard is probably going to be modified to meet the limitations, problems, and deficiencies of the M$ implementation...

Don't argue the technical "superiority" of Windows with an old-school hacker. This is a battle I've been fighting for 2 decades. We Mac geeks are like the colonial "Minutemen" of the computer world--we've got more practical experience in dealing with these issues than the rest of you people combined, because we see issues such as the above-mentioned situations as challenges to be overcome, not excuses to point a finger at someone else.

When a Windows-centric IT manager looks at a Mac-related problem, his first answer is to blame Apple, say there is nothing he can do to help them, and then berate the Mac users for a month because they can't do their work effectively.

When a Mac geek runs into such a problem, his first reaction is to find an effective solution, and then just go about his business quietly.

There is a reason why Mac users often come off as smug and elitist. We're smug because we know we can do anything we want with our computers, REGARDLESS of what the "powers that be" say. We're elitist because we are battle-hardened. Your average Windows IT guy is like a well-trained paratrooper in peacetime--skilled and knowledgeable, but lacking battle-hardness. Your average Mac IT geek is more like a SEAL during the Cold War--quiet, effective, stealthy, and willing to wait for the perfect moment...

Macs place in the computer world has come a LONG way in the last 5 years--they are more powerful, reliable, versatile, stable, and universally usable than any platform out there. The Windows world is starting to realize this, and support for Macs from major 3rd party vendors is becoming the standard rather than the exception.

Windows is dying, dear friend.

Stop braiding your buggywhips "amey01"--the automobile is here, and it has an apple on it's grill...
 
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cadre of autonomous agents, who operate on concurrent levels, mentally, socially.......

Oh my, after reading that, you'd think Apple was a charity dedicated to open-source!


You've been telling us that Macs suck for several days

NO NO NO! I never said Macs suck. In fact, I can see they are superior technology. Did you hear that? I'll say it again - Macs are superior technology. My only bone with them is that they are not universal and as such cause more problems than they're worth. Consider this - imagine if all roads in your suburb were unsealed dirt - you'd still be able to appreciate that a Ferrari is a superior car, but what would be the point? You'd need a 4WD. Same here - Macs are better, but the world the way it is, you need Windows.

locking down an individual's desktop in a corporate environment--is a specification that fundamentally ASSUMES that the individual user is untrustworthy, hostile, and incapable.........

Frankly, I really don't want kids walking in off the street having carte blanche to our public access terminals, surfing porn on our corporate internet. In fact, I think I'd be sacked if I allowed it to happen. Nor do I want solicitors acting for other parties hacking into files of the other parites on the *UNIX* server. And no, nor do I want the young no-hopers in the mail room illegally file sharing in BitTorrent on company time and company internet, locking up the connection for people that actually want to do work.

But it doesn't have to be hostile - even simple little things like users clicking "Make this my Homepage" then ringing up saying "I can't find the intranet any more" - not all users are as intelligent as you - some need to be protected from themselves!

And don't even get me started on my recent position at a school where yes, every kid was hostile, untrustworthy, incapable and determined to push every barrier as far as they could by bypassing proxies, hacking etc. The challenge there was how hard could we lock it down while maintaining the fact that the computer could actually still be turned on......



This is because most banking websites use Windows servers, .........

and

.......Juniper is slow to release Mac compatible..........


And we're back to the square one. The crux of my whole reason for posting. Just like trying to drive a Ferrari in a world full of unsealed dirt roads because it's superior to a Toyota LandCruiser, you've got to use what is appropriate for the world in which you live.

The best computer in the world is a paper-weight if you can't do simple things with it like banking and connecting to your work VPN. Don't care who's fault it is - I just want it to work.

Windows is dying, dear friend.

I hope so! I'd love to switch to something else, Mac or anything else! But not 'till the world's infrastructure allows it.

And if the Mac movement (one by one starting with you and Rich [and now Tom] initiates this change I'll applaud 'till the cows come home. Although, I must say I think it would be a opportunity lost if we moved from one large, oversized, profiteering conglomerate (Microsoft) to another (Apple) when there are plenty of open, free open source alternatives out there. It's just a shame they can't iron out the bugs!

Now I'm off to do a virus scan and install some patches and run a registry cleaner......;);) :eek:
 
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I understand that you don't particularly like Microsoft, but feel that it is the standard and that because of that using Macs creates problems for folks that are dependent in some way on the "standard."

Exactly!

And you're saying that there are some issues, but a lot has been done to resolve these. The remaining issues have workarounds and I'd rather make small compromises for the superiority of the Mac system and many advantages it provides.

I'm glad we see eye to eye now - let's leave it at that.
 
I'm glad we see eye to eye now - let's leave it at that.

Fair enough. Great discussion, guys. I didn't see this as contentious at all, but rather some strong feelings from opposite perspectives and in-depth analysis of those points of view. Regardless of whether we helped Tom or not, I think we provided some good reading for anyone interested in the whole Apple vs. Microsoft saga.
 
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