Sanders Sound 10c's receive HP's Golden Ear Awards 2010

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Justin,

This is one where we may agree to respectfully disagree.

First off, I don't believe that the CLX is an appropriate example to cite regarding off axis listening (and the ability to enjoy thereof) given the marriage between a curved panel and a flat one. I believe that the curved panel will provide a major amount of the upper end, midrange frequency response wherein the flat portion is designed to reproduce the mid bass, lower bass information.

The Quad can overcome some of the beaming issues given the fact that it is wider than taller.

As previously stated, I did own the Acoustat 1 + 1's for several years and really enjoyed them. However, they did exhibit the "narrow sweet spot" conundrum.

And as a final point of information and I've stated this in previous posts, I spend a lot of listening time in my recliner, which is located (more or less) just to the right of the right edge of the right panel. The recliner is aligned so that it generally lines up with the center spot between the speakers. It's certainly a different presentation than being in the center seat, but equally enjoyable in a different sort of way.

Best,

Gordon

PS: I understand the design philosophy behind the flat panel configuration. One will certainly experience "time arrival issues" due to the panel curvature. If anyone needs a real world example with ML stat speakers, try adjusting the vertical angle of the panels. Assuming your system has sufficient resolving capabilities, you will clearly hear this effect.

 

[tonepub]

Have to agree with you Gordon, having owned 1+1's and 2+2's. They were both definitely "1 person speakers"...

But they were great for their day. The original Acoustat 2 was the speaker that got me excited about Electrostats and trading in my Magnepans!

 

[User211]

Hi Justin,

This is one where we may agree to respectfully disagree.

Feel free to, Gordon, that's what forums should be about. If we all thought the same thing, they'd be dead boring.

First off, I don't believe that the CLX is an appropriate example to cite regarding off axis listening (and the ability to enjoy thereof) given the marriage between a curved panel and a flat one. I believe that the curved panel will provide a major amount of the upper end, midrange frequency response wherein the flat portion is designed to reproduce the mid bass, lower bass information.

Not too sure what the point is here. And I'm not even sure whether I'm right about why they seem to perform much better off-axis than the hybrids, but that is definately one of the things I thought when listening to them. The mid/treble dispersion ought to be the same as the hybrids. So why should there be much difference? Well, the difference is the flat panel bass to the side. So logically, it has to be why they sound better off-axis, at least to me.

And as a final point of information and I've stated this in previous posts, I spend a lot of listening time in my recliner, which is located (more or less) just to the right of the right edge of the right panel. The recliner is aligned so that it generally lines up with the center spot between the speakers. It's certainly a different presentation than being in the center seat, but equally enjoyable in a different sort of way.

That's something I could never do. I always had to be smack bang in the middle, ensuring my head was exactly in the right position +/- about one inch, I believe!

PS: I understand the design philosophy behind the flat panel configuration. One will certainly experience "time arrival issues" due to the panel curvature.

That, I believe, is one of the aspects that makes MLs such an entertaining listen in terms of soundstage/imagery i.e. chucking the sound all over the place is bound to produce something interesting to listen to.

 

[Rich]

Honestly, I don't think it is so much that Sanders Speakers don't sound as good off-axis as ML's, as it is that they sound so much better than ML's in the sweet spot that the difference is very noticeable. I think ML's don't particularly sound great off-axis either, but the sound in the sweet spot is not nearly so lifelike with Summits as it is with Roger's speakers. Just my opinion, of course.

As for the lifetime warranty issue, I think Jeff misses the point. Sure, Roger is a small company and may not be around in ten years. Truth is, ML is very likely to go under in the next ten years too. If they don't make their numbers, Shoreview will toss them away like rubbish. As Jason said about Final, there are no guarantees about any company being in business to service its warranties. So you are always taking a bit of a chance.

But personally, I would rather buy a product from someone that stands behind it unconditionally for as long as they are in business, than from some corporate mentality that is more concerned about their own bottom line than they are about their reputation for customer service. At this point, I would trust a ten thousand dollar plus purchase from Roger Sanders much more than I would one from MartinLogan. Because everything Roger says and does is geared toward ensuring my happiness as a customer. That is simply not the case anymore at ML as best I can tell.

 

[User211]

I believe Rich is merely explaining the difference between a small company and a big one. That said, there are no guarantees in life. If you buy a product, you are always taking some degree of risk. Simple fact. It's simply up to you to weigh up the pros and cons of who you buy your products from.

Additionally, if you work for a company, you cannot assume immunity from commercial reality. ML is simply one such example.

 

[jtwrace]

Honestly, I don't think it is so much that Sanders Speakers don't sound as good off-axis as ML's, as it is that they sound so much better than ML's in the sweet spot that the difference is very noticeable. I think ML's don't particularly sound great off-axis either, but the sound in the sweet spot is not nearly so lifelike with Summits as it is with Roger's speakers. Just my opinion, of course.

As for the lifetime warranty issue, I think Jeff misses the point. Sure, Roger is a small company and may not be around in ten years. Truth is, ML is very likely to go under in the next ten years too. If they don't make their numbers, Shoreview will toss them away like rubbish. As Jason said about Final, there are no guarantees about any company being in business to service its warranties. So you are always taking a bit of a chance.

But personally, I would rather buy a product from someone that stands behind it unconditionally for as long as they are in business, than from some corporate mentality that is more concerned about their own bottom line than they are about their reputation for customer service. At this point, I would trust a ten thousand dollar plus purchase from Roger Sanders much more than I would one from MartinLogan. Because everything Roger says and does is geared toward ensuring my happiness as a customer. That is simply not the case anymore at ML as best I can tell.

Again, right on target!

So are you going to purchase Sanders speakers? Just curious.

I could be wrong as I don't know the exact details but when Innersound went under, it could've screwed many people. Right? In the end, as far as I know, Roger still takes care of the Innersound customers. Right?

 

[jtwrace]

Oh and I think comparing speakers sonically off axis is crazy. I understand that some will listen off axis if there is more then one person but usually there isn't. When I listen, it's just me. I wouldn't want anyone else around for a serious listen.

 

[timm]

Honestly, I don't think it is so much that Sanders Speakers don't sound as good off-axis as ML's, as it is that they sound so much better than ML's in the sweet spot that the difference is very noticeable. I think ML's don't particularly sound great off-axis either, but the sound in the sweet spot is not nearly so lifelike with Summits as it is with Roger's speakers. Just my opinion, of course.

As for the lifetime warranty issue, I think Jeff misses the point. Sure, Roger is a small company and may not be around in ten years. Truth is, ML is very likely to go under in the next ten years too. If they don't make their numbers, Shoreview will toss them away like rubbish. As Jason said about Final, there are no guarantees about any company being in business to service its warranties. So you are always taking a bit of a chance.

But personally, I would rather buy a product from someone that stands behind it unconditionally for as long as they are in business, than from some corporate mentality that is more concerned about their own bottom line than they are about their reputation for customer service. At this point, I would trust a ten thousand dollar plus purchase from Roger Sanders much more than I would one from MartinLogan. Because everything Roger says and does is geared toward ensuring my happiness as a customer. That is simply not the case anymore at ML as best I can tell.

This is interesting Rich -- Finally we are talking about 'sound' again.... Do you care to expound on the virtues of the Sanders speaker? Was it the 10c or 10b you heard? I pretty much agree - off axis doesn't mean squat to me - but, moving my head several inches one way or the other may.

 

[Bernard]

This is interesting Rich -- Finally we are talking about 'sound' again.... Do you care to expound on the virtues of the Sanders speaker? Was it the 10c or 10b you heard? I pretty much agree - off axis doesn't mean squat to me - but, moving my head several inches one way or the other may.

Great point. If your head is effectively in a vise you are not relaxed, so how do you enjoy the music?

 

[tonepub]

Honestly, I don't think it is so much that Sanders Speakers don't sound as good off-axis as ML's, as it is that they sound so much better than ML's in the sweet spot that the difference is very noticeable. I think ML's don't particularly sound great off-axis either, but the sound in the sweet spot is not nearly so lifelike with Summits as it is with Roger's speakers. Just my opinion, of course.

As for the lifetime warranty issue, I think Jeff misses the point. Sure, Roger is a small company and may not be around in ten years. Truth is, ML is very likely to go under in the next ten years too. If they don't make their numbers, Shoreview will toss them away like rubbish. As Jason said about Final, there are no guarantees about any company being in business to service its warranties. So you are always taking a bit of a chance.

But personally, I would rather buy a product from someone that stands behind it unconditionally for as long as they are in business, than from some corporate mentality that is more concerned about their own bottom line than they are about their reputation for customer service. At this point, I would trust a ten thousand dollar plus purchase from Roger Sanders much more than I would one from MartinLogan. Because everything Roger says and does is geared toward ensuring my happiness as a customer. That is simply not the case anymore at ML as best I can tell.

You've been grumping and speculating about ML for the last three months with no evidence of anything.

If that's what drives your purchase, so be it. If you like the Sanders speakers better buy them. That's why there's about 1500 different speakers to buy, everyone likes something different. I'm not a fan of the speakers or the amplification. It's competent stuff, but nothing that's ever compelled me to want to write the check. It wasn't when it was Inner Sound either.

That doesn't mean it's a bad product and it doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.

So many of you guys get so wrapped up in the personal aspect of purchasing this gear. I see this on every hifi forum. You all want acceptance out of everyone else for your choices in gear and will banter on into infinity, getting your feathers ruffled at whoever doesn't agree with you. It really doesn't matter what you like, just as it really doesn't matter what I like. If you don't like my choice of hi fi components it doesn't affect my day one bit.

I love music. I enjoy MartinLogan speakers. I enjoy a lot of gear. If you feel more comfortable buying Sanders gear, that's what you should spend your hard earned money on. But the reality is that unless you are sitting in on MartinLogan management meetings or you are have a personal relationship with the company principals and are privy to knowledge that none of us have, you are talking out of your can.

You don't know squat about what MartinLogan is doing or planning any more than you know what the president of Toyota or the President of the United States is thinking.

And if you think everything Roger Sanders says and does is geared towards your happiness, (or any other manufacturer) you are really kidding yourself. Roger Sanders has a business to run. He's going to make the decisions he needs to keep his business and his family alive and if the day ever comes that he has to decide between making you happy and feeding his family, he'll do what he has to do, as would any other business owner.

Buy the speakers you want and enjoy them. It's not like we're discussing cancer treatments.

 

[jtwrace]

You don't know squat about what the President of the United States is thinking.

Umm. We probably don't want to go here...

 

[Gordon Gray]

Great point. If your head is effectively in a vise you are not relaxed, so how do you enjoy the music?

Bernard,

Totally agree.

As an aside, how many people who attend live concerts do this?

GG

 

[jtwrace]

If you do and if you can stick around for a day, you are welcome to come up and listen at our place that Monday after the show.

cheers,
Angela

WOW! I really appreciate the offer but I will not be able to stick around for another day. I LOVE CO but am not able to do it.

I've actually been thinking of purchasing some property there so if I ever retire...

 

[Angela]

And if you think everything Roger Sanders says and does is geared towards your happiness, (or any other manufacturer) you are really kidding yourself. Roger Sanders has a business to run. He's going to make the decisions he needs to keep his business and his family alive and if the day ever comes that he has to decide between making you happy and feeding his family, he'll do what he has to do, as would any other business owner.

I have sat by long enough, Jeff. I am not sure what your motivation is, but let me very clear here. You can say all you want about products, but the personal attacks and libel need to stop here. You continue to cross that line.

Taking care of customers IS what Roger is all about and taking care of customers IS what keeps his customers loyal and IS what keeps the business doing well. It is not ONE in spite of the OTHER. It is both. It is the way that Roger chooses to move through the world, conduct his business and manage relationships.

Regards,
Angela

p.s. Please note that I will not be drawn into a frivolous online battle with you. I have been very gracious to this point without success. I have made my point and as far as I am concerned, consider this matter closed. I would strongly advise you to do the same.

 

[Rich]

You've been grumping and speculating about ML for the last three months with no evidence of anything.

No evidence of anything? Get real, Jeff. You don't have to be in company meetings to see the evidence. The evidence is all over the place. Firing most of their production staff. Moving production to another country. Firing the one person in the company that is synonymous with their brand for customer service? A CEO running the company that has never worked in Audio before? And on and on, already discussed ad infinitum.

We can argue all day long about importance and ramification of each of these factors, but to say I have been grumping without "any evidence of anything" just makes you look foolish.

 

[Angela]

Again, right on target!

So are you going to purchase Sanders speakers? Just curious.

I could be wrong as I don't know the exact details but when Innersound went under, it could've screwed many people. Right? In the end, as far as I know, Roger still takes care of the Innersound customers. Right?

When Innersound went out of business, Roger was asked if he would be willing to support the products. (He had already been doing that all along as a lot of the customers called Roger anyway) Of course Roger agreed and they put a notice and link for folks to come to Roger for support on their site's homepage. Once they ceased operations, they simply redirected their site over to Sanders. If you go to Innersound.net, you'll come to Sanders site with a note on the homepage about support. (I also think that speaks volumes about how Roger and his former business partner kept a professional relationship to ensure the customers were taken care of)



An Ekornes Stressless recliner is our main listening chair at our place. It is so nice on the back.

 

[jtwrace]

When Innersound went out of business, Roger was asked if he would be willing to support the products. (He had already been doing that all along as a lot of the customers called Roger anyway) Of course Roger agreed and they put a notice and link for folks to come to Roger for support on their site's homepage. Once they ceased operations, they simply redirected their site over to Sanders. If you go to Innersound.net, you'll come to Sanders site with a note on the homepage about support. (I also think that speaks volumes about how Roger and his former business partner kept a professional relationship to ensure the customers were taken care of)



An Ekornes Stressless recliner is our main listening chair at our place. It is so nice on the back.

Those are great chairs...

Lets see the other half though. Where the music comes from.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Jason,

I still love mine despite the fact that it is 10 years old now.

It is my "center" listening chair as seen in the posted photos.

Gordon

 

[DTB300]

Wow - with all this p*ssin and moanin about warranties, heresay and absolute garbage thoughts and ideas about ML's downfall, everyone in this moanin group should just sell their ML's and buy their lifetime warranty equipment with Sanders. Then all you whiners will feel much better. You can also start a new Sander's Owners Site and whine over there.

This thread is a perfect example of the trend of this forum...p*ssin, moanin, griping about ML.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I think it's time for all of us to step back and take a couple of deep breaths.

GG