jmschnur
Well-known member
I too found the ML panels a bit strong in the 4-6 kHz region until after break in and then proper alignment with the flashlight tweak. After that they really sing.
Joel
Joel
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kid4lyf
Guest
Rediculous?Craig said:
Maybe not so much. This opinion was shared by Barry Willis in the March Absolute Sound.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/back_issues_160.html
He actually listed that tendency as a positive but, none the less, did agree with kwr in that regard.
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Prodigy to Summit to Prodigy
"suits home theater use to perfection but i have a clear preference for the odysseys in the mid range and i originally went for electrostats looking for midrange clarity"
I now believe that this observation holds true for the larger brethren in a similar fashion. I posted my first observation about the Summit's midrange a month ago and have spent many more hours since trying to make the Summit work the "static midrange magic" in my room. My music room is large, 24x36' with an 18' ceiling and the Prodigy panel's size had a better grip on the room in the crucial midrange. In spite of the fact that the smaller but more open panel of the Summit is considerably more efficient, it is not as much of a tall line source moving air in the upper regions of my room.
I hate to let go of that much improved bass playing distinctly in many different pitches at once, and that wonderfull top playing triangles, gamelan and bells like no tweeter I have heard....but the case of the piano is not quite there. A Steinway sounds like a Yamaha, fast and bright but without the grand of a grand piano.
I did move them for a week into my theater room (16'x24' ceiling 12') and thought they were a perfect front end. The fast and open quality served most soundtracks perfectly and the lower end dynamics made for a very captivating experience. I will definitely in time buy a pair for use in there.
My heart is more in the music though and having listened to many a dynamic and stat, I will probably go back to the Prodigy for that purpose. I have tried with other amps, VTL, Butler, Electrcompaniet (that was a very nice match), Descent or no Descent sub, but can't get to that Paul Robison sound in my large room with Summit.
"suits home theater use to perfection but i have a clear preference for the odysseys in the mid range and i originally went for electrostats looking for midrange clarity"
I now believe that this observation holds true for the larger brethren in a similar fashion. I posted my first observation about the Summit's midrange a month ago and have spent many more hours since trying to make the Summit work the "static midrange magic" in my room. My music room is large, 24x36' with an 18' ceiling and the Prodigy panel's size had a better grip on the room in the crucial midrange. In spite of the fact that the smaller but more open panel of the Summit is considerably more efficient, it is not as much of a tall line source moving air in the upper regions of my room.
I hate to let go of that much improved bass playing distinctly in many different pitches at once, and that wonderfull top playing triangles, gamelan and bells like no tweeter I have heard....but the case of the piano is not quite there. A Steinway sounds like a Yamaha, fast and bright but without the grand of a grand piano.
I did move them for a week into my theater room (16'x24' ceiling 12') and thought they were a perfect front end. The fast and open quality served most soundtracks perfectly and the lower end dynamics made for a very captivating experience. I will definitely in time buy a pair for use in there.
My heart is more in the music though and having listened to many a dynamic and stat, I will probably go back to the Prodigy for that purpose. I have tried with other amps, VTL, Butler, Electrcompaniet (that was a very nice match), Descent or no Descent sub, but can't get to that Paul Robison sound in my large room with Summit.
jmschnur
Well-known member
I found that a very very good parametric equalizer (e.g. Rives) with just a tweak at the 2-6 kHz region can do the job if required. The room reflections are also very important for this as well. As I said rotating the speakers a bit out plane does a lot to improve mid range smoothness.
Joel
Joel
Joey_V
Well-known member
Honestly, after listening to the Summits and my experiences with the older Logans (ala Oddysey, Ascents)... the Summits do not have a midrange hole - as some call it - they are balanced top to bottom and give no preference to a certain frequency band.... this is more important to me than if a speaker did one part extremely well to the point of "coloration (dare I say?).....
The Summits are supremely balanced and they shouldnt be faulted for it.
My .02.
The Summits are supremely balanced and they shouldnt be faulted for it.
My .02.
Let me elaborate on what you mention by that tendency as a positive by using partial but direct quotes from Barry Willis Summit review in TAS.
“A typical comment from visitors was “they sound bright” a reference to the Summit’s energetic presentation, compelling midrange, and open effortless treble. My standard reply is that live music is bright. Strike a cymbal with a drumstick—it has a sharp metallic ring, with fast attack and slow decay. Stand anywhere near a performing violinist, trumpeter, or sax player and then listen to how those instrument sound played back over most loudspeakers. The spine tingling shrillness and bite is almost always absent…There is serious loss of energy between the original acoustic event and the reproduced recording…The result is that few speakers sound realistic in the upper registers…”
He also goes on to say…“But lots of speakers have great bass and top end. It’s the midrange where the Summits excell”.
No where does he mention that they are forward, brash and slightly brittle with less midrange than previous Logans. The midrange is all there but perhaps it’s overshadowed by the bass not being optimally setup with the room, equipment and settings.
There is more but I’m not going to retype the whole Summit review. You’ll just have to buy the magazine. It’s a well written review in that it describes the speaker accurately.
I’m a previous owner of Odysseys and it is a phenomenal speaker when fed properly. My main reason for selling it was that is was too large and imposing physically for my room which made no sense for me to upgrade to the more desirable Prodigy which was my goal until the Summits and Vantages were born.
So yeah, I have to disagree with the Summits being described as forward, brash, slightly brittle with less mid-range than previous Logans. That’s not how I hear them. They’re not the perfect speaker but then I doubt one exists.
I’m not flamed and I respect another opinion and don’t dispute what was heard by listening to a pair one day, but I have my own impression of the Summits after spending 4 months and trying 6 different amps with them. Of course, I settled on a SET 300BXLS tube amp and matching tube pre and love the synergy they have with these speakers.
If I displaying blind loyalty to a particular speaker or brand then I wouldn’t change speakers and equipment every year or sooner. However, I intend to hang on the Summits and current setup for a long time (which has already changed more than once since I posted this 2 channel system. Its’ time for an update).
If anyone is considering purchasing Summits then this review is recommended reading in addition to a proper audition. The Vantages share many similarities with the Summits and are a bargain at half their price. Anyone do a Vantage review yet?
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K
kid4lyf
Guest
Barry Willis of The Absolute Sound said:
You wouldn't consider, "forward" and "brash" to be, somewhat, descriptions of a "bright" sound?Craig said:
I didn't mean this comment as a put down of the speaker.
Quite the opposite, a common complaint of planer speakers of any kind is that they lack the liveliness of a dynamic speaker. The Summits obviously have cured this as reported by TAS to have a "bright" sound.
I was just pointing out that the poster who called them forward, brash, etc wasn't so off base.
Joey_V
Well-known member
kid4lyf said:
I think brash doesnt describe bright appropriately. Brash has a much more negative connotation.
DTB300
Well-known member
Here is the trouble with the audio world and their never ending terms to describe sound. Just say the speaker has too much high end sound to it. But no, everyone has to try to use these replaceable words to describe sound. Trouble is most of us have fallen into this same "word trap" in our hobby - myself included.kid4lyf said:
BTW with Brash - a more common term that seems to be used in the "audio-world" is harsh but both brash and harsh is same thing. Here is from Merriam Webster: "piercingly sharp : HARSH - a brash squeal of brakes"
Dan
S
Steve Daigneault
Guest
i gotta say that i had a hard time getting the midrange on my vantages to sound right vs. the midrange on my aerius i. the vantage needed a warmer amp to acheive that same meaty tone, and definitely sounded recessed with amps regarded as "neutral"... i'm not surprised that some find the midrange on the vantage or summitt to sound recessed or sterile. it's not the speakers fault, it's the person who put together the system. i can make any speaker sound bad, with the right (wrong) equipment.
T
tsd2005
Guest
kid4lyf said:
This was before the speaker was discontinued. Now NEW models can be had for $4500 to $5000.
So a used Demo should sell for at LEAST $3900 which is what the store paid for it. Our Demo went for less than that.
T
tsd2005
Guest
As for the lack of midrange arguement....
I've listened to these speakers a lot. I'd say about 1 hour of serious music listening a day. I've had them for a long time now, and seriously... these speakers are better than the Prodigy hands down.
They sound better off Axis by leaps and bounds, and they sound even better in the sweet spot. The new panel is more picky than previous models however. You have to have good synergy with your other products for these to shine well. Poor synergy leads to the exact sound described: brittle.
I have personally found that nothing makes a Summit sound better than a nice Boulder or VTL amp. The VTL (which I use in my home) is an amazing combination. I have never heard any lack of midrange.
One thing I have noticed is how much better bass is. It blends so much better with the midrange, that perhaps that could be part of the problem for people used to hearing less than perfect coersion.
Some other combinations that shine are Acoustic Research and Bel Canto Designs.
Poor synergy of product on a truely revealing speaker can lead to some really, really, really bad sounding speakers.
I've listened to these speakers a lot. I'd say about 1 hour of serious music listening a day. I've had them for a long time now, and seriously... these speakers are better than the Prodigy hands down.
They sound better off Axis by leaps and bounds, and they sound even better in the sweet spot. The new panel is more picky than previous models however. You have to have good synergy with your other products for these to shine well. Poor synergy leads to the exact sound described: brittle.
I have personally found that nothing makes a Summit sound better than a nice Boulder or VTL amp. The VTL (which I use in my home) is an amazing combination. I have never heard any lack of midrange.
One thing I have noticed is how much better bass is. It blends so much better with the midrange, that perhaps that could be part of the problem for people used to hearing less than perfect coersion.
Some other combinations that shine are Acoustic Research and Bel Canto Designs.
Poor synergy of product on a truely revealing speaker can lead to some really, really, really bad sounding speakers.
I think the English language is lacking in words to describe sound to the detail that audiophiles listen to. It's not surprising since audio systems are much newer than the English language. For example, I have no idea what brittle really sounds like.
For what it's worth, I paid $4700 for demo Odysseys when I bought them about 2 1/2 years ago. I thought it was a great deal at the time. There times when those speakers really sang but I know I never heard them at thier best because I didn't have the amps that were up to the capability of those speakers. If I had them again I would like to try either tubes with plenty of power or biamp with tubes on the panels and SS on the woofers. Or at least a beefy but refined SS amp.
Anyway, after reading all these post I think the Odysseys and Vantage are competitive with each other now that they are comparable in price. The big difference being the amp power requirements and this is where the Vantage has the adVantage because it comes already biamped with an Ice Power amp for the woofers in each speaker and it is physically smaller.
For what it's worth, I paid $4700 for demo Odysseys when I bought them about 2 1/2 years ago. I thought it was a great deal at the time. There times when those speakers really sang but I know I never heard them at thier best because I didn't have the amps that were up to the capability of those speakers. If I had them again I would like to try either tubes with plenty of power or biamp with tubes on the panels and SS on the woofers. Or at least a beefy but refined SS amp.
Anyway, after reading all these post I think the Odysseys and Vantage are competitive with each other now that they are comparable in price. The big difference being the amp power requirements and this is where the Vantage has the adVantage because it comes already biamped with an Ice Power amp for the woofers in each speaker and it is physically smaller.
Munster
Well-known member
"For example, I have no idea what brittle really sounds like. "
I know what you mean. I thought the thread where the guy said he put a
a black towel over the panels and got "blacker backgrounds" was a joke.
I know what you mean. I thought the thread where the guy said he put a
a black towel over the panels and got "blacker backgrounds" was a joke.
K
kid4lyf
Guest
Heard the Odysseys last night.
Blown away by them.
Seriously.
Just wanted to keep listening.
Vantages are very good, but, to my ears...
Also, listened to a pair of Maggie 3.6s.
Warmer sound but lacked the oomph of feeling like live instuments were in front of you; a feeling the Odysseys gave in spades.
I'd guess the Vantages would give more for less, as in less amplification power, but if you have the electronics to push the Odysseys...
Wow.
Needless to say, I now own them.
Blown away by them.
Seriously.
Just wanted to keep listening.
Vantages are very good, but, to my ears...
Also, listened to a pair of Maggie 3.6s.
Warmer sound but lacked the oomph of feeling like live instuments were in front of you; a feeling the Odysseys gave in spades.
I'd guess the Vantages would give more for less, as in less amplification power, but if you have the electronics to push the Odysseys...
Wow.
Needless to say, I now own them.
DTB300
Well-known member
The Odyssey was always my favorite of the past generation Hybrid speakers by ML - you have a great speaker - enjoy!!!kid4lyf said:
Dan
Kaliar
Well-known member
Congrats !!
I have heard Summits driven with my amplification and would have bought them in a heartbeat if money had been available. Not so with the Vantages ! They are very good speakers but not, in my opinion, superior to the Odysseys !
One important thing to consider and remember: "newer" doesn't always mean "better", otherwise all of us who own a set of CLS should hurry to get rid of them.
Happy listening !
Congratulations for your new acquisition ! I'm quite certain that you won't regret your choice of Odyssey over Vantage !kid4lyf said:
I have heard Summits driven with my amplification and would have bought them in a heartbeat if money had been available. Not so with the Vantages ! They are very good speakers but not, in my opinion, superior to the Odysseys !
One important thing to consider and remember: "newer" doesn't always mean "better", otherwise all of us who own a set of CLS should hurry to get rid of them.
Happy listening !
Reverb2009
Well-known member
Congratulations.
You will love the Odysseys, they are grate speakers.
If I had the money I would have bought them over the Ascents.
You will love the Odysseys, they are grate speakers.
If I had the money I would have bought them over the Ascents.
T
TablaPlayer
Guest
congrats
apologies for my somewhat hazy descriptions of the summit sound but i would plead english being my third language as an excuse. i am impressed by the summits, for HT, rock etc they shine and once the Stage is available i will get a pair for HT use but for the mid range rich stuff i'm keeping my ods (currently bi'amped with a pair of bel canto evos).
congrats on your purchase, now if you can add a sub crossed over low (about 45 or so) you've got a superb setup. i play the tabla (twin drums used in indian music esp classical) and till today i've not come across any speaker which reproduces them so accurately as do the ods. they are also very non fatiguing to listen to but then the logans all generally shine where this aspect is concerned.
ali farka toure is playing Hawa Dolo from his album The source as i write this and its small hairs on the back of the neck standing up time. Ah music ..
apologies for my somewhat hazy descriptions of the summit sound but i would plead english being my third language as an excuse. i am impressed by the summits, for HT, rock etc they shine and once the Stage is available i will get a pair for HT use but for the mid range rich stuff i'm keeping my ods (currently bi'amped with a pair of bel canto evos).
congrats on your purchase, now if you can add a sub crossed over low (about 45 or so) you've got a superb setup. i play the tabla (twin drums used in indian music esp classical) and till today i've not come across any speaker which reproduces them so accurately as do the ods. they are also very non fatiguing to listen to but then the logans all generally shine where this aspect is concerned.
ali farka toure is playing Hawa Dolo from his album The source as i write this and its small hairs on the back of the neck standing up time. Ah music ..
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