ML Production moving

[risabet]

What about the high end? They spent a lot of time developing the CLX three to four years ago and it introduced some innovative technology. But the Summit X is basically just a Summit with the CLX crossover. The Spire is basically the same but with one less woofer. Not that much R&D effort was spent creating these products.

This is probably true, but the CLX probably sucked up a good portion of the R&D budget from what is in the end a relatively small company at the time..

They have spent a much larger amount of their R&D budget the last couple of years producing products for the lower end home theater market, most of which are manufactured in China. The higher end seems to be stagnant for the moment. Have they beefed up their R&D staff now that they are designing so many new products for multiple price points? Or are they getting spread thin? Are they favoring the low end over the high end? I think these are all relevant questions.

Yeah, they're favoring mid-fi because it will sell a lot more at a higher margin than high-end speakers like the Summit or the CLX. If they want to stay in business this strikes me a a reasonable way to go. It's about the bottom line. How many high-end companies are GONE because they didn't have products that non-audiophiles would/could purchase. None of this means that they will abandon the high-end, it may be a case of flagship products for our niche market, and a small niche it is, and a line of products that actually pay the bills. I'm willing to wait and see.

 

[Rich]

How many high-end companies are GONE because they didn't have products that non-audiophiles would/could purchase.

Magnepan is still in business. I would say they are one of the most similar companies to compare to in terms of style of company, business model and product line.

 

[DrJRapp]

What about the high end? They spent a lot of time developing the CLX three to four years ago and it introduced some innovative technology. But the Summit X is basically just a Summit with the CLX crossover. The Spire is basically the same but with one less woofer. Not that much R&D effort was spent creating these products.

Are they favoring the low end over the high end? I think these are all relevant questions.

Thinking long term, it is the high volume sales generated on the low end that allows a company to make an investment in the development costs of the high end stuff. With minor exceptions, flagship gear rarely pays off it's own development costs in the near term. That is precisely why one usually sees longer life cycles on the high end than one sees on the low end.

I was part of a similar discussion several years ago when Klipsch first started manufacturing it's Reference Series in large volumes in China. They even expanded the Reference Series "downward" to include a line that could be marketed at Magnolia and the likes without stepping on the toes of their higher end dealers. What has the result been? Well, first Klipsch has become much more profitable. Second, considerable $$$ of those profits were invested in the development of a new line of high end three way speakers called Palladium series designed primarily for two channel and priced in the mid teens and upwards. All major development work up till that point had been in the multi-channel arena with the exception of minor touch ups to the Legacy Series.

Profit is not a "dirty word" but necessary for a company to survive, expand and move forward towards the future.

 

[adanny]

To try and veer north a bit....

Living in the current environment, I can give ML the benefit of doubt that the current moves, while unfortunate for those affected, are needed for future sustainability of the company. Demand for luxury goods is unquestionably reducing. Demand for home theatre equipment is down ~20-25% from prior years. I suspect its not going to go up in the coming 3-5 years. I suspect that ML was experiencing squeezing margins even as volumes were going up, and were seeing an environment unlikely to improve.

That said, and without the benefit of any real financial facts about the company (e.g. margins, revenues, personnel costs etc), some suggestions if anyone senior at ML is listening:
1. Expand connections with, and sales to, core customers: Repeat customers and word of mouth is most likely the biggest source of MLs revenue over the years. ML doesnt invest in existing customers as much as other luxury good companies. And frankly no one in high end audio does. I receive ~10 mailings/year from Audi/BMW, a really slick magazine, and invitations to audi owner rallies and speed racing schools in the area. Many of us have spent almost as much on Audio/video as on cars in the last five years, but I dont think ML, Pioneer Elite etc have a clue who their customers REALLY are. Even the damn furniture makers that I have ever bought an ottoman from know more about me as a customer than ML...
2. Protect the ML brand, but make it much more than just about ES sound: Today, ML is synonymous with the best ES sound. But NOT with the sound that most closely resembles the original source, which is a very different branding, and ultimately much more desirable. ML should aspire to be the "Great Speaker Company Bringing Live Sound to your home." Doesnt matter where that speaker company calls home Over time, I could see an ML line that is the best in the world in ES panel speakers. And a second ML line that is the best in the world in box speaker sound. I think ML, Revel and Wilson might be the only brand names that have the history to pull that off. Maybe ML should buy Wilson or YG? Or hire the principals behind YG/Nola to develop that line for ML, under an ML brand... I think ES sound is too niche....
3. Expand globally: Growth in luxury goods sales ain't coming from NA alone. China, India, Brazil, Russia, the middle east, and I daresay even Western Europe are completely unpenetrated by ML (speaking anecdotally here, having traveled to these parts)
4. Quality: Ultimately, this is the one area that ML should never underinvest in. If they can reduce manufacturing cost without even a 1% reduction in quality and reliability, they will be on the right track. If they don't, this will be a bad move in hindsight
5. End-to-end services: Ultimately, what matters the most is the sound in the customers home. Having made difficult to place speakers, ML probably understands that better than most high-end plug-n-play box speaker and electronic houses. They should partner with both room correction companies (e.g. audyssey) and non-electronic room correction companies (e.g. RealTraps) and train their dealers a lot better on this. And possibly offer a "ML Home Audio" service line that helps install the speakers in your house or HT. I would much rather pay $10-20k for installation if it is backed by an ML guarantee and an ML trained Sound Specialist prepares my room, thinks about room correction, associated electronics etc than a run of the mill local dealer. I am not saying that ML short circuit the dealer here btw. This could enhance their relationship with their dealers, help the dealers get more business, part of which would be shared with ML.

thoughts?

so much air time griping about what ML is doing, so much space arguing about China et al in a manner rarely seen on this forum....

...yet no one is stepping up and suggesting what you would do if you were in the ML CEO's shoes?

Surely someone on the forum has some practical improvement ideas, not just gripes?

 

[DTB300]

ML is going to do what they want to do regardless of posting on forums either griping or he he he...suggestions.

I am sure they are concerned about their customers, but in the end it is about the "Company".

Do they have the possibility of losing customers...??? Yep.
Will they gain new customers....??? Yep.

Instead of posting here, send a letter to Corporate detailing your concerns and issues, as you would any other company.

 

[asindc]

Yeah, they're favoring mid-fi because it will sell a lot more at a higher margin than high-end speakers like the Summit or the CLX. If they want to stay in business this strikes me a a reasonable way to go. It's about the bottom line. How many high-end companies are GONE because they didn't have products that non-audiophiles would/could purchase. None of this means that they will abandon the high-end, it may be a case of flagship products for our niche market, and a small niche it is, and a line of products that actually pay the bills. I'm willing to wait and see.

Thinking long term, it is the high volume sales generated on the low end that allows a company to make an investment in the development costs of the high end stuff. With minor exceptions, flagship gear rarely pays off it's own development costs in the near term. That is precisely why one usually sees longer life cycles on the high end than one sees on the low end.

I agree with these statements. I talked to an Overture sales rep a few months ago about their decision to begin selling MLs again after a hiatus. During that conversation, I asked if he knew if ML would build a true successor to the Statements. He said that, based on the ML officials' conversations with them, he not only does not expect ML to build Statement successors, but seriously doubts that they would have been built at all if the current ownership was in place at the time.

 

[adanny]

ML is going to do what they want to do regardless of posting on forums either griping or he he he...suggestions.

I am sure they are concerned about their customers, but in the end it is about the "Company".

Do they have the possibility of losing customers...??? Yep.
Will they gain new customers....??? Yep.

Instead of posting here, send a letter to Corporate detailing your concerns and issues, as you would any other company.

I'm not naive enough to think ML will change their direction based on this forum. I am naive enough to think we can change the direction of THIS thread into something more interesting, completely regardless of whether ML pays attention to it or not

 

[DTB300]

I disagree.

This thread can only provide information about ML moving production to their Paradigm Plant and nothing more. The only way it could contain more is if ML stepped in (again) and gave us more information. Otherwise it is just pure speculation. Just like knowing how a system sounds by a picture - pure speculation.

Forget this threaad as it will only progress down the path it has already taken. Start a new thread discussing something interesting with audio, not corporate america and its affect on customers.

 

[Rich]

...yet no one is stepping up and suggesting what you would do if you were in the ML CEO's shoes?

Surely someone on the forum has some practical improvement ideas, not just gripes?

Not having a clue what their sales numbers, production costs, demand curves, etc. are, it is hard to give them advice from a business perspective. Ultimately, there is no such thing as a ML CEO. The company is now owned by a holding company that bought them strictly as an investment. They seek to maximize their return on the investment. That does not necessarily include continuing to manufacture high end products or continuing their history of stellar customer service. So my advice as a loyal customer would be different than probably what the owners would care about for their business investment. But I'll be happy to entertain your suggestion by offering mine.

My advice? Don't dilute the brand by continuing to diversify into the low-fi marketplace. Don't lose the people that have made the company great up to this point. Upgrade the factory in Kansas instead of moving ESL production to Canada. Continue to invest R&D resources into the higher end. Produce a few larger-panel speakers to get back some of the big sound and depth of tone that the Prodigy produced. Design a line of all-ESL speakers under the CLX. Create marketing campaigns that ring true with customers rather than ones that ring hollow.

ML is going to do what they want to do regardless of posting on forums either griping or he he he...suggestions.

. . .

This thread can only provide information about ML moving production to their Paradigm Plant and nothing more. The only way it could contain more is if ML stepped in (again) and gave us more information. Otherwise it is just pure speculation. Just like knowing how a system sounds by a picture - pure speculation.

Forget this thread as it will only progress down the path it has already taken. Start a new thread discussing something interesting with audio, not corporate america and its affect on customers.

I have to disagree with you on that one, Dan. I am here to discuss audio and Martin Logan and any other interesting topics that come up. I find the discussion in this thread so far has been rather interesting and stimulating, with many different points of view represented. Such discussions are why many of us are on the forum to begin with. I want someone to challenge my ideas and thinking, and I want to get others' perspectives on different issues.

Who cares if ML corporate will be affected by what we say and maybe take it into consideration? That is not the reason most of us are here, is it? Then again, the fact that the marketing director felt the need to post on the thread shows that they are watching and somewhat concerned about perceptions on this forum. And they did offer our moderators an early shot at auditioning the Motion series. So I think we have a little more influence than you imply.

Regardless, I find it a little odd that several people now have chided us for having an in-depth discussion about a topic as big as this one (basically, the future direction of the company) on a forum dedicated to the brand. What's up with that?

You say it is pure speculation, but so what? We speculate on all kinds of things here on this forum. If we only limited all discussion to known facts, things would get kind of boring quick. You can answer the same old "what amp should I use with Logans" with "do a search of the forum, it has been answered five jillion times" only so many times before things get tedious. The longtime members of this forum are some of the most loyal and dedicated customers of this company. I think their opinions on a subject of this magnitude are extremely relevant, both to the forum at large, as well as to the owners of Martin Logan.

 

[Len44]

Magnepan is still in business. I would say they are one of the most similar companies to compare to in terms of style of company, business model and product line.

Shush!!! Or Magnepan will be next...

 

[Rich]

Profit is not a "dirty word" but necessary for a company to survive, expand and move forward towards the future.

I agree with this sentiment, to a point. Ultimately, the pursuit of profits at the expense of all else has led to some of the worst environmental and health disasters in our history, the mortgage banking collapse we just witnessed, and many a great company being driven into the ground due to too much focus on maximizing quarterly profits at the expense of sustainable long term growth. It is certainly possible to run a profitable company, while still providing reasonable salary, benefits and job security to your employees and giving your customers quality products and top-notch customer service. I certainly hope ML's owners realize this.

 

[Rich]

he not only does not expect ML to build Statement successors, but seriously doubts that the would have been built at all if the current ownership was in place at the time.

This is probably true. And what did ML gain from designing and producing the Statements? Well, brand recognition and marketing clout for one thing, as several celebrities bought a pair and that was highly publicized. Not to mention, technological advances that were filtered down to the rest of the line and helped make all their speakers and subs great for years to come. Just like the crossover technology from the CLX has been filtered down to the Summit X and Spire. If they don't continue to invest in flagship products, chances are the entire line will stagnate and suffer. Technological improvements will lag, and the emphasis will shift to improvements in esthetics, gimmicks, and marketing.

 

[DTB300]

Who cares if ML corporate will be affected by what we say and maybe take it into consideration?

Some people in the thread seem to think ML corporate will care. I do not think what we say about the move matters.

That is not the reason most of us are here, is it? Then again, the fact that the marketing director felt the need to post on the thread shows that they are watching and somewhat concerned about perceptions on this forum. And they did offer our moderators an early shot at auditioning the Motion series. So I think we have a little more influence than you imply.

I do not think they are concerned about perceptions - they are more concerned about hearsay and bad information being posted or stated.

I do not see how the auditioning has anything to do with the movement of production. Just a chance to get someone with knowledge of ML speakers trying out the lower costing models for HT.

Regardless, I find it a little odd that several people now have chided us for having an in-depth discussion about a topic as big as this one (basically, the future direction of the company) on a forum dedicated to the brand. What's up with that?

The topic and post by ML was fact, the rest is just pure speculation on what will happen with the company. And some of us with the opinion the thread is useless is just as valid as the people who want the thread to continue. This is Public forum life.

You say it is pure speculation, but so what?

Maybe we should also start a thread on all the other companies in the world who have changed production facilities? Why just limit it to our little world? Then we could all post all of our worries and speculations and feel happy.

We speculate on all kinds of things here on this forum. If we only limited all discussion to known facts, things would get kind of boring quick. You can answer the same old "what amp should I use with Logans" with "do a search of the forum, it has been answered five jillion times" only so many times before things get tedious. The longtime members of this forum are some of the most loyal and dedicated customers of this company. I think their opinions on a subject of this magnitude are extremely relevant, both to the forum at large, as well as to the owners of Martin Logan.

Trouble is there are many "....longtime members of this forum [who] are some of the most loyal and dedicated customers of this company" who have left, no longer post, or do minimal posting here due to the progression of this forum into a more known place. Great to see the site progress and grow from what it was, but forum growth also has its drawbacks.

 

[adanny]

My advice? Don't dilute the brand by continuing to diversify into the low-fi marketplace. Don't lose the people that have made the company great up to this point. Upgrade the factory in Kansas instead of moving ESL production to Canada. Continue to invest R&D resources into the higher end. Produce a few larger-panel speakers to get back some of the big sound and depth of tone that the Prodigy produced. Design a line of all-ESL speakers under the CLX. Create marketing campaigns that ring true with customers rather than ones that ring hollow.

agree with the brand point. wonder if they should consider launching a Martin Logan sub brand (like Armani Exchange and Armani; Lexus and Toyota) that leverages learnings from Martinlogan, maximizes profits from the mid-end segment without diluting the ML main brand? "The MarLo Motion series" anyone ?

totally agree with the R&D point and all your points after that. If they lose that, brand is basically over

 

[RichTeer]

totally agree with the R&D point and all your points after that. If they lose that, brand is basically over

Agreed. Look what happened to the once-great Infinity: once revered for great speakers like the IRS Series V, IRS Beta, and a few others, they are now just a HT "also ran" IMHO. Very sad...

That said, I have confidence that ML's new owners won't make that mistake, and that apart from maybe one or two teething problems, the move of production to Canada will have no ill-effect (the unfortunate job losses notwithstanding).

 

[Rich]

I do not think what we say about the move matters.

Ultimately, nothing that is said on this forum "matters" in the greater scheme of things. It is just a forum dedicated to a brand of speakers and a hobby. So why post at all? The obvious answer is to engage others in discussion about topics we find interesting, to ask questions, give help, and so on.

I don't really understand why someone would even bother posting on a thread if they didn't find the topic interesting. Especially when their purpose is just to tell others who are enjoying discussing the topic that it doesn't matter and they should move on to something more interesting.

And some of us with the opinion the thread is useless is just as valid as the people who want the thread to continue. This is Public forum life.

I never meant to imply that your opinion wasn't valid. I just questioned your rationale for chiding others for having a discussion about the current decisions of ML corporate and the future direction of the company. Voicing your opinion that the thread is useless is one thing. But telling others to forget the thread and move on to something else more interesting is a little different. That is really just belittling the opinions of others that find the topic interesting to discuss simply because you don't.

Great to see the site progress and grow from what it was, but forum growth also has its drawbacks.

I understand that feeling.

 

[DTB300]

I don't really understand why someone would even bother posting on a thread if they didn't find the topic interesting. Especially when their purpose is just to tell others who are enjoying discussing the topic that it doesn't matter and they should move on to something more interesting.

Because they/we/you can post to any thread we like. If the moderators do not like a post they can use their censorship power and remove them.

Discussions can be positive, negative, agree, disagree. etc. on any subject as long as there is no personal attacks.

Again, the life of a public forum.

 

[Rich]

That said, I have confidence that ML's new owners won't make that mistake, and that apart from maybe one or two teething problems, the move of production to Canada will have no ill-effect (the unfortunate job losses notwithstanding).

I certainly hope you are right, RichTeer. It would be a shame to see yet another great high end audio brand such as ML be destroyed in the name of short term profits. Although I am sad to see ESL production moved from Kansas for a number of reasons, I do think it is possible for them to continue to build the brand and produce outstanding high end speakers while still diversifying their product base into the mid and low fi markets. I am just a little concerned that I haven't seen much direct evidence lately that this is their intention.

 

[User211]

Check out this DuPont website for info re: the coefficient of expansion, both thermal and hygroscopic as these are the pertinent coefficients regarding stretch. Based on a quick calculation, loss of tension isn't the problem to worry about. I'd say contamination and loss of dielectric are much greater concerns.

http://usa.dupontteijinfilms.com/informationcenter/downloads/Physical_&_Thermal_Properties.pdf

Thanks for that. Found it interesting - surprised at how high the melting point was, and the low creep, but I have no idea what the tension of the film actually is in an ML panel.

"Mylar® is unusually resistant to creep. Two values measured at room temperature are 0.1% after 260 hr at 2.09 kg/mm2 (2.98 kpsi) and 0.2% after 1000 hr at 2.10 kg/mm2 (3.00 kpsi)."

2.1 Kg/mm2 sounds to me as though it's going to be rather higher than the panel value.

 

[User211]

Ultimately, there is no such thing as a ML CEO.

Rich for ML CEO!

My advice? Don't dilute the brand by continuing to diversify into the low-fi marketplace. Don't lose the people that have made the company great up to this point. Upgrade the factory in Kansas instead of moving ESL production to Canada. Continue to invest R&D resources into the higher end. Produce a few larger-panel speakers to get back some of the big sound and depth of tone that the Prodigy produced. Design a line of all-ESL speakers under the CLX. Create marketing campaigns that ring true with customers rather than ones that ring hollow..

Awesome advice. Whether it's all real-worldly enough to actually make commercial sense is another matter, but it's a damn good set of ideals.

Also, when the CLX tech only hits 60Hz, is a range of all-ESL panels below the CLX actually practical?

Rich - I'm completely stunned by your input into this thread. It's phenominal. Really!