Mini media-room – speaker advice request

[JonFo]

So most of you have seen the evolution of my big home theater system over the past decade or so, and it continues to be a true reference system, but I’ve also had a separate small system in the loft area (several levels away from the HT) with a basic system for my wife to use (one click, fewer boxes, etc). We often use that to catch 30 minute or hour long shows in the evening when we just don’t have time to fire up the big rig.
Well, the loft is being taken over by the spousal unit as her sewing room, and the media kit is migrating to a spare bedroom on the main level. This room is the absolute worst shape for a surround setup, as it’s A) small (11x10x9’) and B) a near cube, the worst possible shape for room modes in the bass.

So I thought that “hey, this is a cool challenge for an audio-geek: take a bad room, set a limited budget and see how far we can get in terms of performance relative to the big system”

But, I need your help and input on a very key choice: the speakers to be used in this setup

 

[JonFo]

As noted before, the room is small, therefore the two seats will be very close (~7’) to whatever speakers, so highly accurate imaging in the nearfield will be a requirement.

Speaker choice is influenced by other factors as well, such as amplification. This choice is already set as the receiver is an Onkyo NR-818, with 125Wpc and Audyssey XT32 room correction.


Low end is covered by the subs mentioned in the next post, so the mains and surrounds can be ‘bookshelf’ sized.
Height is limited by the display device, whose bottom edge with be at 27” from the floor.

This screen location has to trump speaker location (at least for the center), as this will be a 60” 3D Plasma display, and for optimum 3D, its center must be level with the seated viewers eyes.

Listeners ears will be roughly 7.5 or 8’ from the plane of the display.

So let’s hear your suggestions!

 

[JonFo]

Bass solution for small, cube room

As mentioned above, a cube shape really sucks for a media room of any kind, and for super-picky dudes like myself who designed the custom house around the main HT rooms dimensions, this is as close to a nightmare scenario as one can get
But, a cool challenge to tackle and see if the recommendations and research regarding multiple subs and suggested locations could be made to work for this worst-case room.

So after looking at some DIY options (you know me, always lean that way), I decided that I should try something anyone else can also do, so off to Amazon we go.

Given that I was buying four subs for a small room, they A) could not be too expensive and B) not be too big. So I limited my search to subs 10” and under.

After much looking around and review reading, I found that the MartinLogan line is very well liked, heck even on the DIY suppliers (Parts-express) site, many folks were comparing their efforts with Dynamos and praising the ML sub for how clean it was in spite of its being a ported design.

And to seal the deal, Amazon had (has?) the ML Dynamo 300 on sale for just $129/each (free shipping thanks to Prime), so for around $500, I got four subs!

I will be starting out with the four distributed per this diagram, at mid-points along all four walls.

​

I seems counter-intuitive to stuff four subs into a tiny room, but per the research, this should address many of the acoustic challenges. I’ll post back with measurements once I get it set up.

 

[RUR]

Jonathan, if you're doing this on a small budget, take a look at the Infinity Primus line. They measure well and sound great for very little money. If you want to go a bit upscale, try to audition the Kef LS50's. Frankly unbelievable sound for ~$1,200/pair.

 

[JonFo]

Thanks Ken, glad you brought up the KEF's, as I've been intrigued by their coax design for years, and figured in this situation, where one is very close to the speaker, a single driver design might be ideal.
Have you compared the LS50 to the others such as the R or Q line?
I have the Q300 on the short-list.
Wonder if one can source three LS50's (front/center/right)?

 

[RUR]

Jonathan, the only other Kef's I've spent time with are the 205/2 and 207/2 Ref, which are scarcely a fair comparison. Do try and give the LS50's a listen, if you can. At the recent THE Show, everyone in the room, including yours truly, was shaking their head in disbelief. Subs required, of course, but you've got that covered.

Yup, you can buy them in odd numbers.

 

[User211]

I spent a long time at Bristol Hi-Fi Show 2013 listening to the LS50 and the Kef Blades. Whilst I wasn't so impressed with the Blades considering the cost (easily beaten by my own Apogees) I thought the LS50 was excellent for the money, so I'm with Ken.

 

[RUR]

Justin, at RMAF '11 I much preferred the Ref 207/2 to the Blades. When I told the Kef folks this, they were speechless.

 

[User211]

I'd rather listen to the much older 105/3 than the Blade.... I found them a bit lifeless.

I got a double dose of the LS50. One in a huge (and packed) demo room next to some R series speakers. They sounded great in there - better than they had any right to but there was a bit of passive radiator affect going on.

Then again in a much smaller room with only me and a couple of friends for about an hour. Really liked them - as did the company. Can't remember the driving electronics but the Blades were driven with all Leema kit.

Really bad Blade pic to prove it happened

 

[JonFo]

thanks Justin and Ken, I'll get down to the local KEF dealer and get a demo. They feature the LS50s on their site, and they have them in a demo room.
I also confirmed they will do odd numbers (three or five).

That would push the budget, but they look like a mighty fine investment.

 

[JonFo]

Besides the coax driver KEFs, the only other dynamic tweeter speaker I'm considering are the various AMT drivers, like MLs own Folded Motion or the GoldenEar line.
The Aon 2 from GoldenEar look about right. What ML motion would people put up against it?

 

[User211]

I've not heard the ML AMT efforts. Mark & Daniel have more experience, though, and as I suspect you know I use Sapphires for a second system.

The Sapphire AMTs are absolutely brilliant off-axis. They cost more than KEFs and they really need Watts, lots of them, to sound their best. Just something else to consider - the Sapphire isn't the cheapest M&D. They are VERY well made with fantastically rigid enclosures. Mind you the KEF LS50 box is very good for the money.

Be nice to get some MLs, though, as you love the brand.

 

[amey01]

The problem with some budget equipment (including wine) is that you give it credit simply because you know the price. "Oh wow - I didn't expect it to be that good" - that sort of thing. But when you spend a while with it you start to realise the shortcomings.

The opposite is true for expensive kit.

Still - I agree the Blades are worth nowhere near the cost!

 

[projectormovielover]

The ls50 is the best bookie I have heard to date

 

[InterMechanico]

Totem Rainmakers or for a few more dollar signs, Totem Model One Sigs.

 

[JonFo]

Justin, thanks for reminding me of the Sapphires, but given the amp constraints (a receiver), probably need to lean towards a more efficient design.

And yes, I am leaning towards ML, but they need to earn my dollars with the right mix of price and performance.

My front speakers will be right up against the front wall, so some of the newer designs with a rear port could be problem. Older models like the the C2 center have front ports. Any thought on that part?

 

[amey01]

probably need to lean towards a more efficient design.

Avantgarde Trio?

 

[cstory]

JonFo,

If you are looking for small bookshelf speakers, give Rick Craig at Selah Audio a call 919-264-6776. He does custom and kit speakers. If your budget can stretch, you might be very interested in one of his sealed cabinet designs that use a RAAL ribbon tweeter. If you are handy with wood you can make your own cabinets and save some $$$.

I have his Grandeur speakers (actually helped pick the name) and truthfully if I had to move and needed to give up a pair of speakers, I would keep the Grandeur's and sell my ML Vista's. He can do these with a sealed cabinet.

http://www.selahaudio.com/id192.html

If your budget is more modest, I also have a pair he call's the Aura Jr. in our bedroom. They are really excellent for the price. Not as warm on the bottom end as the Grandeur, but very clear and the SB ring radiator tweeter is very good and free of grain. http://www.selahaudio.com/id263.html

The point is, with Rick, once you've made up your mind in terms of budget, he can design a pair (or 3 or 5) using better drivers than you can get in a comercial speaker. And based on the two that I have, and the other designs of his that I have heard, they are all uniformally excellent.

He even has a design called the MF-7 if you want to go coax.

http://www.selahaudio.com/id145.html

Give Rick a call. He's a good guy, makes great speakers at a very fair price. You've got nothing to lose.

Good luck with the speaker hunt.

Chuck

 

[JonFo]

JonFo,

If you are looking for small bookshelf speakers, give Rick Craig at Selah Audio a call 919-264-6776. He does custom and kit speakers. If your budget can stretch, you might be very interested in one of his sealed cabinet designs that use a RAAL ribbon tweeter. If you are handy with wood you can make your own cabinets and save some $$$.
...

Hi Chuck, thanks, I've been a long-time admirer of Rick's work on DIYaudio and at Selah. I am a big fan of his Line-Array designs.

Most of his stuff is a bit big for my small room setup, but that MF7 coax looks about right. Will look into it. Thanks.

 

[JonFo]

Avantgarde Trio?

LOL. Yep, that would do the trick (and take over the entire room) :ROFL: