Digital filter pre-rining, post-ringing and apodising filters

[spectral]

I usually buy equipment after having understood the underlying technology in great depths, although I DIDN'T do that when I purchased the Berkeley Alpha DAC a few months ago, relying entirely on listening tests.

Three months later, I decided to understand why this piece (and others like it) sound so incredible, having been intrigued by Robert Harley's review of the Meridian 808.2i where he mentions the Spectral 4000's and Alpha DAC's digital filter's ability to remove pre-ringing during reproduction, as well as the Meridian's alleged ability to remove the same from the digital recording also.

Eventually, I landed on this fascinating article by Ayre on what this is all about... Hope you find it interesting also. And as I write this, I also ran into this very enlightening thread: http://www.avguide.com/forums/rh-meridian-8082

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Thanks Spectral for the links. I just had my Ayre C-7xe upgraded to the MP(minimum phase) digital filter. It is a tremendous value and worth every cent I paid. While I still prefer vinyl mostly, my newly upgraded cd player has closed that gap significantly.

Glen

 

[spectral]

While I still prefer vinyl mostly, my newly upgraded cd player has closed that gap significantly.
Glen

Same here... It's amazing what today's technology can do and you don't have to overspend on digital anymore.

 

[JonFo]

Yeah, I'm eager to hear a MP or Apodising filter based player, such as the Meridian.

The theory and tech behind is is pretty cool.

Just hope that it gets implemented into backwards compatible D/A chip-sets to make upgrades easier.

I also hope it's not ungodly expensive, as my preamp has 24 DAC's in it (12 ch balanced)

 

[David Matz]

Spectral,

Great post. I contacted Ayre and they have a flood of requests. I have to wait until early February! Apparently the difference the apodising filter / their MP filter and the regular players is huge by all accounts. The best analogy from both Harley and Atkinson is that this technology makes regular disks sound like high resolution recordings.

Just hope that it gets implemented into backwards compatible D/A chip-sets to make upgrades easier.

Jonathan,

I would not hold my breath on most manufacturers to be as kind as Ayre, and do the upgrade for $250. Expect most to come out with new versions and charge the full $$$.

Not all manufacturers are created equal.

 

[tonepub]

Having heard both the Ayre and Meridian players, it's certainly a step in the right direction...

But when we compared the standard 808 to the new 808.2 side by side, I would call it the diff between a set of Summits and a set of Summit X's.

A change for the better, but not earth shattering to the point where the original was unlistenable.

However if you read the fine print, JA said the Meridian (.2 version) was "the best CD player he'd ever heard" and in the next issue, he was already saying that the DCS player "was as enjoyable as the Meridian he wrote up last month."

Hmmmm.

Again, not that the latest versions of the Ayre and Meridian players aren't excellent, they are. Best CD players in the world, sorry.... There are a few that are more natural and reveal more music, but they will cost you quite a bit more. Best in class, absolutely!

 

[David Matz]

Having heard both the Ayre and Meridian players, it's certainly a step in the right direction...

But when we compared the standard 808 to the new 808.2 side by side, I would call it the diff between a set of Summits and a set of Summit X's.

A change for the better, but not earth shattering to the point where the original was unlistenable.

However if you read the fine print, JA said the Meridian (.2 version) was "the best CD player he'd ever heard" and in the next issue, he was already saying that the DCS player "was as enjoyable as the Meridian he wrote up last month."

Hmmmm.

Again, not that the latest versions of the Ayre and Meridian players aren't excellent, they are. Best CD players in the world, sorry.... There are a few that are more natural and reveal more music, but they will cost you quite a bit more. Best in class, absolutely!

Ha! Wasn't the Boulder on the cover a month or 2 ago? I recently heard the dcs with the new Watt Puppy. It was so over - detailed. Was it the Wilson or the dcs? Who knows?

JA sure is trying to sell magazines. He compared the Meridian to the old Ayre in his "best I ever heard" meridian review. Everyone is now waiting in suspense for this comparison of the Meridian to the upgraded Ayre in a future issue.

Jeff, thanks for making the sonic difference a bit more concrete. As for the cost benefit, as you point out in your excellent review of the X, many guys spend more on a cable upgrade for a small improvement in sound than going from the Summit to the X. The Ayre upgrade is only $250! Ayre must be doing very well in this economy with the MXR and KXR. Or they have been smoking something that grows high in the Rockies.

 

[Satch]

I don't know what could grow high in the Rockies, but I'd sure like to hear that new Ayre CD player!

 

[FOUNTAIN]

I would definitely agree with Jeff about the differences between the MP and non MP Ayre players. While I haven't heard the Summit vs the Summit X I would say that overall it is a nice refinement on an already fine piece. Although, when you consider it only costs $250 plus shipping, only one way because Ayre picks up the tab to send it back, then this is a fairly big deal. I couldn't be more pleased with the results especially knowing I've paid alot more for a lot less.


Glen

 

[tonepub]

I definitely think the Ayre upgrade is money extremely well spent. I wish Meridian did the same thing. Getting rid of an 808 and upgrade to a .2 model will be about a ten thousand dollar transaction. (Getting rid of your 808 for about 6k, then stepping up to a 16k 808.2...)

 

[DC-Audiophile]

Spectral,

I'm glad you started this thread! I have been doing research on a high quality DAC and came across the same information. In addition, I've been trying to assess what people think of various DAC's in the market currently.

Personally, I think the direction of music playback for high-end will be high quality DAC's mated to whatever digital source you already own, fed into a high quality music system. This way we can all preserve and enhance our investments.

This weekend, I saw and heard the future! I had a credit from Best Buy and with it bought an Apple Airport Express (AE). The diminutive device, now installed and connected to my system, transmits CD's which I have ripped to itunes in AIFF, full non-compressed lossless format.

In the current, just installed setup, I'm using the analog out from the AE. However, I have a digital toslink cable on order (it's the only digital interface it has--cleverly hidden beyond the mini stereo plug) with which I will be able to connect to a DAC. Since I'm still evaluating DAC's I've connected it to my AVR for now.

So, with the Remote application (free on the app store) loaded on my iphone, I can now use the iphone to connect to my PC in the other room, select a lossless CD in itunes, and stream it to the AE, which in turn gives me a bit-for-bit signal.

IMHO, this is the future! Not only do I get my native signal, I have the incredible convenience of selecting album after album without swapping CD's! Now imagine using a top-notch DAC to decode this signal, and you've got a pretty sweeeeeet and highly flexible and convenient system.

Now, I've been thinking that the new Ayre QB-9 DAC which includes the latest design elements you describe should be a killer DAC. My only disappointment is that it is only a USB DAC!

What this means is that you now have to physically introduce a computer into your hi-fi, because it needs to take the USB input and provide an analog output. Yes, they've (presumably) done a great job of working around the USB's interface issues, but who needs all the noise and clutter of a computer in your hi-fi?

I've been reading very good things about CA's DacMagic unit. Stereophile liked it so much, the reviewer bought the review copy for himself! This unit has USB input (which did not measure as well as other digital inputs) and also has coax and toslink s/pdif inputs. In the UK, many owners have modded the unit to upgrade power supply caps and change op-amps from IC to discrete (a favorite seems to be the Burson op-amp).

Problem is many DAC reviews are so subjective and it's hard to discern "relative to what?" when you are unfamiliar with the reviewer or associated gear. Then, you articles like: http://www.stereophile.com/features/106ringing/index.html which make you wonder if the difference will even be discernible!

This investigation is my primary reason to go to RMAF. Second reason is I've never been to a show of its type and I've always wanted to! Hopefully, those of us who attend can meet and discuss this topic while demoing various DACs.

 

[Satch]

Hi DC,

I'm using the Benchmark DAC 1 usb as kind of a preamp for the Squeezebox III and the Oppo DV-980H. I run RCA analog I.C.'s from the Benchmark to a Cary SLP 98P > Ayre V-5xe > ML Spire speakers & Depth i sub.

I'm running AIFF files from a ReadyNAS NV+ through a MacBook to the Squeezebox and that sounds about the same as CD's from the Oppo. Meaning it sounds great, but still has that signature digital sound (cold and glassy) compared to my modest vinyl rig.

I'd like to find a really good "analog" sounding DAC and use the Squeezebox and the Oppo as a transport.

Jeeze, my head hurts! Does this make any since?

Satch

 

[tonepub]

Give the Neko Audio a try. He does a 30 day money back if you don't like it.

Completely the opposite of the Benchmark.

www.nekoaudio.com

Nice guy, great DAC $1295

Most analog sounding budget DAC I've heard so far....

 

[RUR]

Has anyone here had any experience with the Berkeley Alpha or Weiss DAC2/Minerva? Or perhaps the Playback Designs MPD-5?

 

[spectral]

Has anyone here had any experience with the Berkeley Alpha

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I had some comments under http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9365

Peter

 

[spectral]

Spectral,

I'm glad you started this thread! I have been doing research on a high quality DAC and came across the same information. In addition, I've been trying to assess what people think of various DAC's in the market currently.

Thanks. Just to let you know, I am going the direction of a computer-based music server to drive the Berkeley Alpha DAC: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=mcubed_music_server.html This is the one Harley also uses. The only problem will be where the heck to put the monitor...

 

[Satch]

I guess I'm not going to find a DAC that will make the Oppo or the Squeezebox sound as good (to me) as just running the Ayre CD player straight to the pre.

I can live with the sound quality of the Benchmark for streaming music, but I think I'll have to start saving my scratch for the Ayre CD player.

Does that sound about right?

Satch

 

[Statman]

Just wanted to say thank you for posting this update for the Ayre players.Time to send mine in for the update.