CD treatments

[Gordon Gray]

Howdy all,

Like the folks who enjoy analogue and believe record cleaning is an important aspect to fully enjoying the black pizza, I hold the same view regarding the silver disc.

For several years now, I have treated all my CD's with the three step Mapleshade process. Polish the disc with micro smooth, treat both sides with Optrix, and finally destat the little devil.

I have found the treatment to have a positive / audible effect on the sound. I've also have had friends do an A / B test and they have verified the effect.

I recently tried another product, that being Ultra Bit Platinum. Like Optrix, the theory is that the fluid allows the laser to read the disc more accurately.

What was surprising was the sonic differences between the two products, which was quite distinct. Whereas Optrix tends to bring out "detail" in the presentation (to my ears in a very musical way), UBP has an audible "smoothing" effect on all frequencies. Still musical but in my system, somewhat less engaging.

Curious as to anyone else's experience with these products or products of a similar nature.

GG

 

[Gordon]

I'll admit to trying the green felt tip on the edges. But, I'll give your choices a chance and report back. I've only used a diluted alcohol and water mixture to clean up my disks to this point.

Gordon

 

[amey01]

Now I'll say up front that technical measurements are not normally my way, but since getting into streaming music, I have gone into the subject in depth.

A reasonably clean and and good condition CD ripped with

*ANY* programme (that is, EAC, iTunes, dBPowerAmp, XCDRip or Windows Media Player);
*ANY* Operating System (that is, Ubuntu, Fedora, Solars, Windows);
*ANY* file encoding (that is, FLAC, ALAC, .WAV)
*ANY* CD drive (high end Plextors to in-built LGs in IBM ThinkPads)
......and this is the important bit........whether it has green pen, super cleaning, demagnatisation......whatever;

......when the file is back-converted to .WAV the EXACT SAME checksum is generated. They are the SAME.

Now, I'm the first to say that playing a CD real time may yeild different results as there is no buffering involved. But this can only contribute to the fact that a lot of people say they get IMPROVED sound quality streaming.

 

[MOON]

Hello Gordan,

I use an Audio desk lathe on all cd's and then demagnitize the disc with an Acoustic revive RD3 demagnitizer.These two treatments are indespensible if you listen to cd's.You would be quite surprised how well digital can actually sound. Both these treatments improve every cd by a huge margin.http://www.audiodesksysteme.de/index.php?kat=10 http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/index.html



If you want a huge step up in sound quality, this is the way to go.I must also add that I use the Acoustic Revive RR77 as well which isn't a cd treatment. These three products used together will transform your listening experience.
Cheers, Greg

 

[twich54]

Acoustic revive RD3 demagnitizer.these treatments improve every cd by a huge margin.[/QUOTE] This past year Anthony (A..., using the word 'huge' is really a stretch !

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi G,

If you want to experiment for very few dollars, try Optrix alone. Available through MD.

Another little tweak I found that is well worthwhile for minimum dollars is to install the Cardas RCA caps, which you place over all unused inputs / outputs on your preamp. They also make XLR caps. Available through Audio Advisors.

GG

 

[MOON]

This past year Anthony (AsInDC) and his buddy (TaxoMega) came over to my house with this contraption, we tried....and we tried but not a one of us could hear anything different ?? So IMO, using the word 'huge' is really a stretch !

Anyone who has heard a disc played at my house and then demaged could hear a significant difference and described the differences.These people weren't even audiophiles, just your average people.

No offence, but it's hard to imagine you guys can't hear any differences, you don't need golden ears. Was it the acoustic revive RD3 or some other make?It does make a big differnce what brand you used. The RD3 isn't cheap at a current list of $495 US. The Acoustic Revive is the best demag made. It has received rave reviews in the audio mags. You demag both sides of the disc. If you used a Bendini or other make , they don't work nearly as well.

I actually was loaned the RR77 and RD3 for a month last summer by a fellow audiophile for a month while he was on vacation and bought both units after I had to return them due to the how they transform listening to digital.Have a look at these two reviews. http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/acoustic_revive_rd3_rio5.htm

http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rd3/images/rd3andrio5_review.pdf

 

[amey01]

This past year Anthony (AsInDC) and his buddy (TaxoMega) came over to my house with this contraption, we tried....and we tried but not a one of us could hear anything different ?? So IMO, using the word 'huge' is really a stretch !

Maybe different results for different equipment?

 

[MOON]

Maybe different results for different equipment?

It doesn't matter which cd player brand you use, it makes a difference every time.Have a read of the two reviews on the RD3 that are on my last post.
Cheers, Greg

 

[Gordon Gray]

Greg,

I know that Mike Levigne (?) uses these devices and had the same reaction. Mike's room can be seen on the Rives Audio site. He had Rives design the acoustics for a barn he converted into his listening room.

Intriguing devices. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. May have to try. Who sells the product?

Gordon

 

[MOON]

Gordan,

You can buy Acoustic Revive products through http://www.tweekgeek.com/
http://www.thecableco.com/ ahttp://www.weinhartdesign.com/nd

Just type in Acoustic Revive under shop by manufacturer on the cable company site.I bought mine from Weinhart design. Super people to deal with.I beleive if you live in the USA that you guys can borrow one out of the cable company lending library to see how you like it. I wish we had something like that up here in Canada.

I also lathe every blu-ray disc and demag them as well which besides improving audio quality , improves the picture as well.

The RR77 is a room conditioning device and is also indespensible.http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/acousticrevive/rr77.html

Gordan, what exactly do the cardas rca caps and XLR caps do on a preamp?

Thanks, Greg

 

[SteveInNC]

CD-DA discs are made of stamped polycarbonate and a layer of sputtered aluminum covered by acrylic. The data is read optically. How does demagnetizing a disc improve the sound quality? While aluminum is paramagnetic, this can only be determined using very sensitive measurements. For our purposes, aluminum is non-magnetic.

Even if we assume that it is, the disc is read optically by detecting the reflection (or not) from the surface of the sputtered aluminum. The laser used to read the pits and lands is not affected by magnetic fields either.

 

[Rich]

Even if we assume that it is, the disc is read optically by detecting the reflection (or not) from the surface of the sputtered aluminum. The laser used to read the pits and lands is not affected by magnetic fields either.

Tellingly, they completely fail to address this point on their website under the topic where they discuss the functionality of this device. They go into some detail about how the discs may become magnetized (due to microscopic amounts of iron in the aluminum layer and the printing ink on the label side ), and they talk about how their device is better at demagnetizing than other competing products. And they flat out state that this magnetization prohibits you from getting the best sound quality off of the disc. But they completely omit and ignore the most obvious question about the need for this product, which you raise above: How does a slightly magnetized disc affect the audio signal produced from a laser that is optically reading pit size on a disc?

The fact that they ignore this question completely, as if it were not an issue at all that they should discuss in marketing a product of this nature, tells me that this is just a bunch of snake oil. No offense to Moon, but I have a feeling the "huge" effects he is hearing are more due to psychology than physics. The same reason why placebos are effective medication for many people.

Given how noticeable the effect is claimed to be, this actually seems like a good one for some controlled testing. Get five or more people in a room, have two copies each of five different discs, one copy magnetized and one de-magged, and have the source player in another room, with someone playing each of the two discs, a full song at a time, in random order. Get the five people to independently make a note of whether they think song "a" or song "b" was the demagged version. Then go to another song. After doing this with about ten different songs on five different discs, tally up all the numbers and compare to reality to see how accurate the listeners were at picking out the "huge" difference. My guess is they will average about 50%.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Greg,

The basic premise, as I understand it, is that the caps somehow block / attenuate EMI and RFI, thereby decreasing the impact that this interference has on the preamp sound.

I think the best analogy, for those who think this is a valid concept, are those folks that use "cable lifters" in their system.

I did an experiment with a non-audio type a couple of years ago. I was playing a song, put it on pause, inserted the caps on half of the preamp inputs (took about 30 seconds), and then started the CD again. He looked at me and said "what did you do"?

I asked him what differences he heard. He indicated a drop in the noise floor and an increase in musicality. More body, less stridency, better dimensionality.

As with all things audio, YMMV but I would encourage you to give it a try. Again, they are available through Audio Advisors and Music Direct with a 30 day money back guarantee.

FWIW, I briefly posted on the "ultra high end audio" site and the discussion regarding the devices you own was similar in nature.

Hope that helps and hope you and others give the caps a try. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Gordon

PS: Can't speak for the effectiveness on XLR I/O's since I installed them on my RCA I/O's only. I'm assuming they would have the same impact.

 

[risabet]

. No offense to Moon, but I have a feeling the "huge" effects he is hearing are more due to psychology than physics. The same reason why placebos are effective medication for many people.

That is possibly true, but in the end does it matter? Psychological effects are just as real as actual scientific effects. If someone believes that the sound is better, more realistic, closer to the absolute sound, with a specific device than without, than the money is well spent IMO.

 

[Rich]

That is possibly true, but in the end does it matter?

That's a valid question. I guess the answer will vary depending on the individual. I would prefer to spend my money on higher quality equipment and tweaks that have a sound basis in science, such as acoustic treatments. I have spent a few dollars over the years on things I later decided were more hype than real, and I always regretted it.

 

[MOON]

Hi Rich, no offense taken at all.I think however you should actually try something before voicing an opinion.I think you would be quite surprised.When I got the lathe, I had 2 audio friends of mine come over. I asked them to bring a bunch of cd's that we shared the same copy of. They could tell the lathed version every time, after playing the same track off each disc and then have them tell me what disc sounded better.It was the lathed version they picked every time.

They were quite shocked that a 30 second lathe session could alter the sound of a disc to the extent it did for the better.I am no scientist, and can't explain why the demag works. That doesn't matter to me, what does is great sound.

We will be doing the same thing next Saturday night with the demag vs non demagged disc.

Gorden, I will give the Cardas caps a try sometime. As for treating cd's, I have used a cleaner calleds Finyl with good results.

 

[Rich]

I think however you should actually try something before voicing an opinion.

I understand your point. I am simply basing my opinion on my own knowledge of science, my experience dealing with various snake-oil salesmen over many years, and a pretty thorough reading of their website. It is pretty obvious snake oil to me. They make all kinds of claims for all kinds of products based on verbal mumbo jumbo and pseudoscience, with no real factual information to back up any of their claims. Then they charge out the butt for their product.

I can buy a swiss made demagnetizer for a wrist watch for $45.00. I wonder what merits their charging $500 for one for CD's? For that kind of money, I don't think I'll be experimenting with one of these anytime soon. I'll just trust Dave's (twich54) opinion, which pretty much mirrors my expectations.

 

[Rich]

I have found a rigorous scientific explanation for how a cd becomes magnetized and degrades the audio signal of a high end cd player, from a review of the Furutech demag on Six Moons.com, to wit:

The aluminum used for the reflective CD layer is contaminated with ferrous impurities and thus susceptible to magnetizing. Ditto for the ink used for printing the label. When the CD spins at up to 500 RPM, these ferrous particles begin to act as magnets as they are moving in a -- however small -- magnetic field. Let's assume that after an hour's play, all magnetizable particles have activated. We'll thus have a fair amount of magnets rotating inside a magnetic field. Little imagination is required to appreciate that such magnets could have a detrimental effect on all electronic circuits in the vicinity. As we have reported in our article on copying CDs to improve their sound quality, a great deal of the CD system is analog in nature and thus very much prone to external influences such as moving magnetic fields.

(emphasis added)

Did I say "rigorous?" Sorry, I meant to say ridiculous! Assuming there are ferrous impurities in the aluminum and in the ink, the size of these particles and their volume spread across the surface of the disc would be extremely small. Even if they did magnetize from the discs spinning, which has in no way been proven, there is no possible way the strength of that magnetic field could extend beyond a millimeter or so from the disc. There simply are no electronic circuits in a CD player close enough to the disc to be affected by this potential magnetic field. Honestly, the electronic circuits in a CD player are probably affected by the earth's own magnetic field a trillion times stronger than they would be by the tiny magnetic fields potentially generated by spinning CDs.

Until someone can come up with a more logical scientific explanation for the need for this product, I still say Snake Oil. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[miljac]

A cheap experiment would be to try to use a head demagnetizer (tape deck, anyone?) to check if it would work. Turn it on and move fast above the CD.
It might work, who knows?