streamers vs spinners

I rip all my CDs to my Sooloos Meridian MC200, having negotiated a kick start with my Hi Fi dealer ripping the first 250 or so. I now like the lack of clutter in the room and keep CD hard copies limited to my CD bookcase (see my system pics). If I am heading towards fullness in storing CDs away, I prune the bookcase by taking a bunch of CDs to charity shops. I have a back up hard drive and also a networked hard drive for wireless access in my garden room. One of the joys of ripping to hard drive is that you can then transfer or multiply access your music. So I was easily able to access all my CD copies in the garden....full report to follow shortly under My System.
I use a Moon 750D DAC CD player with hi res input from USB. I use Pure Music on my Macbook which is easy to setup and sonically excellent for Hi Res files. I also operate streaming from Qobuz (French streaming service 44.1 quality).
I may change to Tidal streaming service in future as it will shortly be available on Meridian Sooloos platform. This will mean simpler switching between my external Hard disk library and the online Tidal library.
In future MQA (Meridian Quality Authenticated) music will also be available streamed via Tidal. I am going to a local event (early March) to hear what this does and will report back from that as soon as! It will be goods to get a first hand experience...will it be hype or the next great thing.
I use a MacBook Pro to do all the computer bit of this. I am not geeky or particularly into computers, but in order to get the Pure Music working I added extra RAM to my MacBook, (a few screws needed and a bit of care). Encouraged by that I then upgraded the nearly full hard drive to a SSD (Solid State Drive) which runs quieter and cooler. I am delighted by the results and being able to access all my digital stuff via the Macbook makes it nice and simple. You can also chat to your good chums on MLO Forum as you listen!! I would certainly encourage anyone to go down this route. It is a bit of effort and learning but in the end means easy fun access to a huge variety of good quality recorded music....Mighty!! (I still love Vinyl btw!!)

I'm actually surprised how decent the sound is from the 128Mbps streaming from Pandora. The clarity of sound is good and there is nothing "offensive" about it at all. It doesn't have the same presence and imaging of some of my other material, but I'm surprised at how well the Ethos handle it. I was initially concerned about them being harsh with poor recordings, but so far I've yet to play anything through them that they didn't like. The cats seem to like jazz pretty well too Then again maybe the OPPO 105 is just doing a great job turning digital into analog.

FYI, I'm still getting "reacquainted" with my music since they arrived. They are spectacular sounding speakers!

Gordon Gray said:

All over the map and no clear consensus from what I can tell.

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That would be because there is absolutely zero difference, but people try their hardest to believe there is a difference.

If there was a difference, then there would be a clear consensus - just like noone argues that a 128k MP3 sounds better than a FLAC.

Although it might be worth pointing out that there are so many variables in computer audio, things aren't always what they seem. How do you know that a guy that says "streaming sounds like crap" hasn't got AAC compression turned on accidentally? How do you know that someone who says streaming sounds way better than CDs isn't comparing the CD to a 24/96 download?

Hola chicos. Take a look at HD tracks... very nice repertory, and prices are not too bad. Downloading and buying the CD at amazon cost me about the same, but this is HD tracks, usually at 96KHz and the CD is 44.1Khz. Yes, there is a difference at the sound stage and the crystal clear of the cymbals as an example. Instruments are well defined and with the right size. I do like it a lot.
Happy listening!

amey01 said:

That would be because there is absolutely zero difference, but people try their hardest to believe there is a difference.

If there was a difference, then there would be a clear consensus - just like noone argues that a 128k MP3 sounds better than a FLAC.

Although it might be worth pointing out that there are so many variables in computer audio, things aren't always what they seem. How do you know that a guy that says "streaming sounds like crap" hasn't got AAC compression turned on accidentally? How do you know that someone who says streaming sounds way better than CDs isn't comparing the CD to a 24/96 download?

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Hi Adam,

Regarding your first sentence, all I can say is the I've read a number of reviews in Stereophile and TAS that compared the "downloaded" version with the CD. They don't support your absolutist position. Of course, they may also be wrong.

As for your "how do you know" questions, I don't and at this point, I frankly don't care. And I don't particularly care for the "tone" of your post. A bit aggressive for my tastes. I'm not testifying in front of a jury but merely providing observations.

If and when I decide to try that media, I'll do my homework and let my ears decide.

I'm happy you have found your new way of listening to music.

Best,

Gordon

Gordon Gray said:

And I don't particularly care for the "tone" of your post. A bit aggressive for my tastes.

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Substitute "How do you know" with "How does one know" or "How can you know". Is that better?

That; is the tone of my post. To demonstrate with example the many variables that could cause someone to draw the conclusions about which you have read.

I've read many articles like you too - and I see failures in comparison logic all the time. Like comparing the SPDIF or analogue output of a CD player with the USB output of a media server. Clearly these are not valid comparisons when attempting to compare the intrinsic quality of different digital formats. What does matter is a checksum of the data to prove it is identical. Any other difference heard is a result of something other than the source format.

A CD for example, may have been originally recorded to flash memory, hard disk, SAN, optical disk - God knows. So long as the data is preserved then this can not impact the sound. I might sound a bit like Ethan Winer here but digital data is like that.

No Gordon - every time someone quotes you they are not automatically trying to attack you. Promise.

I get what you are saying completely amey. Unmentioned variables etc that people just don't get. Now back to another question. Streaming w the sbt. I seem to get drop outs when hard disk is hooked to computer via USB and also to router via USB. And yes amey the sbt does have a USB connection if you want to connect the drive directly. ( I think you had questioned that ... It does). Anyway - fairly new router - didn't go cheap. It is upstairs in an open concept house. No problems w anything else. What do you suppose the issue is ? Anyone have any particular tests or way to confirm why I am getting quite a bit of drop outs? My laptop is about 40' away from the sbt.

timm said:

the sbt does have a USB connection if you want to connect the drive directly. ( I think you had questioned that ... It does).

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Wasn't me questioning that - I have an SBT.

As for the drop outs, the SBT has a network test which allows you to test the network bandwidth. It will show you the data rate at which the network can no longer cope.

If your laptop is connected to the network via wi-fi then this could be the issue. The server should be connected by wire, and if this is not possible then connect the SBT by wire. Having the two connected by wi-fi creates a lot more network traffic and this could be your problem.

Gordon Gray said:

Hi Adam,

To clarify, I will stream using Tidal or another hi rez source within the next year or so. At this time, I don't intend to rip / store / playback my compact discs. May be fear due to my "low tech" background.

May investigate downloading / storing files from HD tracks, etc. Have read numerous comments about the quality versus the "silver disc". All over the map and no clear consensus from what I can tell.

GG

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If you are worried about the 'low tech' background, just buy a Streamer like an Aurender, and the dealer will set you up in such a way that all you will need to do is operate the remote ipad. Excellent UI.

amey01 said:

Substitute "How do you know" with "How does one know" or "How can you know". Is that better?

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Thank you. Much better.

PS: No one can ever ever replace Ethan.

amey01 said:

Wasn't me questioning that - I have an SBT.

As for the drop outs, the SBT has a network test which allows you to test the network bandwidth. It will show you the data rate at which the network can no longer cope.

If your laptop is connected to the network via wi-fi then this could be the issue. The server should be connected by wire, and if this is not possible then connect the SBT by wire. Having the two connected by wi-fi creates a lot more network traffic and this could be your problem.

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Yes.. I am all wi-fi.... I will take a look for the test you mentioned... thanks... I appreciate the help.... Tim.

Ok. So I tried one of these Ethernet wall plug ins? You plug it into the electrical outlet and it has an Ethernet jack. Hard wired the router with one and did the same to the sbt. It worked. I am currently using the sbt dac going analog out to my pre and 24/192 seems to pause ... Have drop outs etc. I am guessing there is no fix for this? The plug in is only for digital out to an external dac. I am not sure if it is just a limitation of the dac or something else because of the additional size of the file. I was wondering if Logitech media server could down sample the 24/192 file.

I suspect your Ethernet over AC isn't fast enough to handle 24/192 files. Would be easy enough to test. Play some 16/44 tracks, then 24/96, then 24/192, and see if it's only the latter that chokes. You can also check the Slimdevices discussion forum referenced above.

timm,

WiFi should work absolutely fine. Unfortunately there are a lot of variables involved.

1. The Wireless Router being used and what protocols it supports, it's speed and broadcast strength.
2. How far away it is and the strength of the signal at the receiving device.
3. The receiving device being used and the protocols it supports.

For example, I'm using a Netgear WNR3500L router which is a Wireless-N Gigabit Router.
My source computer is hardwired to the router on a 1Gbps line
My OPPO 105D had different limitations depending on how it is connected.

2 channels 192kHz PCM by USB audio
2 channels 96kHz PCM through the Optical and Coaxial audio inputs

The WiFi supported by the OPPO is 802.11B,G, and N

According to my router my OPPO has a 145 Mbps connection and a strong signal with the router just being about 15 ft away.

This allows streaming 24bit x 192kHz music all day long without any problems.

My Xfinity DVR and remote boxes communicate over the TV cable coax, and currently I don't run any networking over my power lines.


Do you know which WiFi protocols your router and receiving device support?
Do you know how strong your signal is ?

Pretty sure I have a wireless N gig router with a USB 3.0 port which I have attached the terabyte external drive. The AC piece by netgear supports 200mbps. So it is definitely a possible bottleneck. I will bring the laptop next to the router as a test to see if it is the wifi connection.

According to other site ramblings the Logitech server down converts 24/192 files to 24/96. The plugin disables the analog out of the touch and 24/192 is not down converted. It is my understanding that the down conversion happens on the server side of things. One if the poster's mentioned his dac only supporting 24/96 and 24/192 caused skips pauses etc which is what I am getting. He mentioned needing an 'oscillator' for the dac so it could handle the 24/192. So as u can see it makes me question the ability of the internal dac of the sbt to handle it. Please remember I am going analog out of the sbt. I will let you know what I find in regards to wifi. Thanks for all your input.

One more thing. Ill hard wire the laptop to the router as a test as well

Ok. So tried again. Everything worked. So this is obviously a network limitation. It is very possible we had other devices hitting the network at the time of the issue. So I will pay attention to that. I have yet to find the network test on the sbt or the server software. Everything shows 24/192. I did get the last version made. Not sure if that makes a diff.

Re the sbt dac. It isn't bad but my thoughts are that the high end is a little hot. In any case I love this little gizmo. I will definitely have to consider an outboard dac. The fact that I got it for 300 and it now sells for over double well that says something. What a dumb move to discontinue it. Logitech should have pulled an apple and created a download service to support it if hardware was not as profitable as it should have been.

I was reading the dCS guide to computer audio, and in it they mention that it is preferable to connect the computer to the hard drives via FireWire instead of USB. I imagine that it's so that you don't overtax the USB. But then, if you have the OS on SSD, and transfer the music to SSD to play it, that should not be an issue, IMO.

This is an interesting thread. I have a Sonos Connect, and while I absolutely love the interface and how it works I'm curious if the audio companies (Marantz, Cambridge Audio etc..) media streamers are sonically superior to the Sonos. I've discussed this with some and "its all just bits", implies that one is no better than the other. However, I find it difficult to believe that to be 100% accurate...but maybe it is?

TDIMike said:

This is an interesting thread. I have a Sonos Connect, and while I absolutely love the interface and how it works I'm curious if the audio companies (Marantz, Cambridge Audio etc..) media streamers are sonically superior to the Sonos. I've discussed this with some and "its all just bits", implies that one is no better than the other. However, I find it difficult to believe that to be 100% accurate...but maybe it is?

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It doesn't matter if the bits come from USB, WiFi, CD, SACD, ethernet, NAS, etc. if they are the exact same content at the same bitrate, bit depth etc.. The critical path starts with the DAC's.

I'm loving some of the downloads I've gotten from HDTracks, but we stream a lot of music. I can say that I can hear a noticeable difference between the 128kbps Pandora signal and what I've listened to from HDTracks, but that is apples and oranges.

RCHeliGuy said:

It doesn't matter if the bits come from USB, WiFi, CD, SACD, ethernet, NAS, etc. if they are the exact same content at the same bitrate, bit depth etc.. The critical path starts with the DAC's.

I'm loving some of the downloads I've gotten from HDTracks, but we stream a lot of music. I can say that I can hear a noticeable difference between the 128kbps Pandora signal and what I've listened to from HDTracks.

Click to expand...

So basically you're saying that given all things equal my $349 Sonos Connect should be identical to the $1200 Marantz? Currently I have a Peachtree DAC-IT, but maybe upgrading the DAC is the better money spent?