Where are my MLs coming from?...

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pat17

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I've been surprized to discover recently that my Claritys and my Frescos were Made in Taiwan. I thought that all ML products were manufactured in the USA...

Do you know which products are made in America, and which ones are coming from Asia?
 

joe29001

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I'm surprised too.

I'm surprised to hear that your speakers (and mine too) were made in Asia. I just looked at my speakers and there's no indication of where they were built. There's a US address listed on the speaker, but no country of origin.

Upon checking the boxes, I noticed that the Mosaics were built in communist China (small font, down low on box - easy to miss, especially if you're not specifically looking for it). The Fresco box does not indicate a country of origin (no idea where they're from, but I'd like to know). When I bought the speakers, the salesman said that all ML's are built in the USA - which influenced my decision (and the reason I never searched for the "made in .." label). It seems I've been duped.

The fact that the Frescos aren't marked is surprising. You can't buy a pen, a coffee maker or a pair of underwear without knowing the country of origin. I'm surprised that a thousand dollar speaker isn't bound by the same regulations.

I must say that I do enjoy the ML's, and thought they would be my last set of speakers, but I may actually reconsider and upgrade to a US-Made product.
 
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Gilbert Y

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Oops.....

This is BAD. :confused: :(

I would not have expected this, but if it is ture????????????? :confused:
 
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Gilbert Y

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joe29001 said:
I must say that I do enjoy the ML's, and thought they would be my last set of speakers, but I may actually reconsider and upgrade to a US-Made product.

joe29001

Good for you, buy domestic, thank you. :)
 
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jkcheng122

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Gilbert Y said:
joe29001

Good for you, buy domestic, thank you. :)
it's possible that the only the box is made in asian and not the speaker itself. i would find it difficult too to purchase martin logans knowing they were made in asia (other than japan).

and this is coming from a chinese-american.
 

pat17

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joe29001 said:
I'm surprised to hear that your speakers (and mine too) were made in Asia.
It was confirmed by the reseller by the way... :)

This is not shocking me more than that - after all, American products made in Taiwan purchased by a Frenchman from an Indian reseller in the UAE, it's a common mix out there... :D

What is more surprizing is that ML's pricing makes you really think it is 100% Made in the USA... :)
 
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Gilbert Y

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jkcheng122

We can hope only the box is made in Asia but not the speaker but that chance seem very slim. Why would anyone make the product in the USA and mark the box made in China? That just doesn't make any sense.

I agree, Japan is OK, the rest of the Asia NOT. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Similar to you jkcheng122, I am born as Chinese but I am a Canadian now. I have spent over half my life in Canada and domestic beasically mean US and Canada to me.
 
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Wayne

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Hello Everyone,
I just logged on and I am in amasement.... all the ML brochures showing the ML staff with polishing cloth's/ paint sprayers/looks of admiration on their faces is just an act????? I hope someone has the definitive answer to this, as someone who is converting from another brand of speaker to ML's, I am stupified. Especially as noted on the pricing end... please tell me there is an answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

alexl911

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From what I understand...to be able to say "Made in America" all you have to do is perform the finaly assembly in the U.S. Many of the sub components could come from anywhere. I think any manufacturer should be responsible and state what percentage of the product is made where. Having said that I really hope this thread does not degenerate into "Buy American" rhetoric...

What is the problem?

Is quality the issue? Probably 99% of the electronic junk in our homes, offices, cars etc. are made in Asia-Pacific (and Mexico). I would think that they know what they're doing by now.

Is it patriotisim? I get a kick out how much misinformation there is around this issue... For example, I wonder if all the "buy american" advocates know that more japanese cars are made in the U.S. then anywhere else in the world? Or that many American cars are made in Canada (where I'm from).

I don't care where things are made as long as 1) the quality is maintained, 2) the manufacturer is honest about it, and 3) the workers who make the stuff are not exploited (Unfortunately, I know the last point is hard to prove and avoid)
 
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Gilbert Y

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alexl911 said:
I don't care where things are made as long as 1) the quality is maintained, 2) the manufacturer is honest about it, and 3) the workers who make the stuff are not exploited (Unfortunately, I know the last point is hard to prove and avoid)
I am in total agreement on what you said above alexl911. However, not just the last point is hard to prove. All three points are hard to prove. For one, I have bought many Chinese product and more than 95% broke within a month. Hey, even Taiwanese stuff are much better than that. Of course Japanese are even better. I think we are talking about stuff that made in China here.

And for you would hope they know what they are doing by now. Good dream. ;) They know how to make low quality products and get as much money as they can. That, my hat off to them.

To be able to say Made in USA or Made in Canada, the manufacture must meet a certain percentage of parts and labour contains. This is also to qualify NAFTA requirement. If the parts is made somewhere else, and labour in USA. The manufacture should have say "Assemble in the USA" and not "made in USA".
 
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Peter_Klim

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Gilbert Y said:
I am in total agreement on what you said above alexl911. However, not just the last point is hard to prove. All three points are hard to prove. For one, I have bought many Chinese product and more than 95% broke within a month. Hey, even Taiwanese stuff are much better than that. Of course Japanese are even better. I think we are talking about stuff that made in China here.

And for you would hope they know what they are doing by now. Good dream. ;) They know how to make low quality products and get as much money as they can. That, my hat off to them.

To be able to say Made in USA or Made in Canada, the manufacture must meet a certain percentage of parts and labour contains. This is also to qualify NAFTA requirement. If the parts is made somewhere else, and labour in USA. The manufacture should have say "Assemble in the USA" and not "made in USA".
" For one, I have bought many Chinese product and more than 95% broke within a month."

So for every 20 "made in China" products you've bought, less than 1 of them still works after owning them for just one month??
 

attyonline

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Gee, this appears to be much to do about nothing. Every electronic and many speaker comapnies are looking to China to hold down costs and compete. Case you did not notice, there are number of companies making speakers in China of high quality and low cost. This paranoia is not unlike the sixties and early seventies regarding Japanese cars. "Junk and unreliable"was what they were called. Last way you would describe these cars today :) The world is constantly changing. You can either adjust to it or go out of business.
 
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Gilbert Y

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Peter_Klim said:
" For one, I have bought many Chinese product and more than 95% broke within a month."

So for every 20 "made in China" products you've bought, less than 1 of them still works after owning them for just one month??
Yup, that's right. Some of those broken one can be fixed. Most are just junk and not worth to fix. Or if they are not totally broken, they are not the same as new after a month.

Once I bought a Chinese made glass coffer making jar that cost $10.00. Only after using twice with hot water, the three times cracked when I pour in hot water. So I spend $35.00 and bought a Spainish made piece. Still working after almost a year. I bought a $1.00 key chain that was Chinese made last week, broke after a week.

I was in that part of the world for over 18 years and I have seen a few thing back there. Yes, they have changed but their root are still the same. The world is changing, sure. Changing for a good or bad? I don't see any point to tell the truth here anymore since nobody seem to care.
 

joe29001

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I disagree with the speculation that every electronic company is looking to China to maximize profits. That's quite simply not true.

While many electronic products are produced offshore, these are typically of a lower-price, lower-quality, lower technical complexity competing in a market based primarily on price. ML is not going to lose business to AKAI if AKAI knocks $5.00 off a $60.00 speaker by outsourcing to the developing nation du jour.

ML products are distinguished in the marketplace as a quality offering and are marketed/priced as such. ML consumers are willing to pay for this quality, and some (myself included) would willingly pay more for a domestically-built product (I thought I did w/the Mosaic/Fresco).

A number of companies have kept domestic production to maintain control over their quality and their intellectual property. There are many cases of products being outsourced (especially to China) and within a few months, an identical (or identical-looking) product is being produced and sold at a bargain-basement price (and there's not a thing to be done about it).

I'm surprised that ML would be so short-sighted as to let go of their proprietary technology and hand their quality control over to a third party, likely a contract manufacturer, probably producing ML, KLH, Creative Sound, & AKAI speakers under the same roof, mixing and matching parts as convenience dictates. On the bright side, we'll all be able to buy the rebranded ATF technology at the local Wal Mart at a great price. It's all about saving a buck or two after all.
 
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Gilbert Y

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joe29001 said:
A number of companies have kept domestic production to maintain control over their quality and their intellectual property. There are many cases of products being outsourced (especially to China) and within a few months, an identical (or identical-looking) product is being produced and sold at a bargain-basement price (and there's not a thing to be done about it).

I'm surprised that ML would be so short-sighted as to let go of their proprietary technology and hand their quality control over to a third party, likely a contract manufacturer, probably producing ML, KLH, Creative Sound, & AKAI speakers under the same roof, mixing and matching parts as convenience dictates. On the bright side, we'll all be able to buy the rebranded ATF technology at the local Wal Mart at a great price. It's all about saving a buck or two after all.
"There are many cases of products being outsourced (especially to China) and within a few months, an identical (or identical-looking) product is being produced and sold at a bargain-basement price (and there's not a thing to be done about it)."

Because the Chinese government "encourage" it. They get pay for it directly or indirectly. I wish more people are seeing it like you do.

And BTW Is that mean I should hold me purchase of Mosaic until my local Wal-Mart store have the same thing in stock at $299.97 a pair in pink colour? :) ;) :rolleyes:

I also am willing to pay more for a domestically-built products. For example If Sota can make a turntable at $625.00 including arm right in Worth, Illinois why would anyone buy something that is made else where.
 

pat17

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I'm somewhat puzzled by all your answers... taking into consideration that the original point - which of the ML speakers are actually made in Taiwan - remains unanswered... :D

I'm afraid that just stating 'this is Chinese, this is rubbish' is not true anymore. Look at what the Chinese - and I'm thinking of Mainland China, not Taiwan or HongKong - are able to produce in terms of vacuum amplifiers today, just to remain in our topic.

Japanese products were widely considered as being bad unreliable imitations up to the 60s, then it was the case of the Korean and the Taiwanese products... Look where we are today! Open your PC and tell me what is not coming from Asia today - the microprocessor? and then?

I'm currently working for an industrial company in the telecommunications field. Most of our plants are in Europe, some of them in America, and some of them in China. I wouldn't say that the Chinese products are that bad - especially as it is our factory - just simply because you can master the industrial process in almost any country provided that you have educated and motivated manpower, you pay them decent salaries, and you ensure a good supervision applies. A strong quality control in the end will make sure that international standard will be respected.

Is it right, is it wrong to go to China? There are pros and cons, but in today's world market, if you don't do as what your competitors do, you are dead. All manufacturers in our field are doing the same, including the American ones. It's even not a question of making fat profits, it's just a question of not losing bids because we are not competitive anymore... Chapter 11 is not the solution I'm afraid...

To be back to ML, the fact that the most economic products are made in Asia is not very surprizing after all... if we consider that the Fresco / Mosaic / Vignette market is not the same than the CLS... The most prestigious ML products are Made in the USA as far as what the reseller said. What I'm still curious to know, is where does the Asian made series stop, and where the American manufactured part starts from...
 
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Nick

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I was trying to hold my tongue on this, but I had to say something so here it is.

In the end in comes down to that fact we want the best and we don't want pay for it.

We say with our mouth that we want quality. Then we say with out actions the want the cheapest stuff out there. Why do you think Ikea and Wal-mart etc are so popular? People are not going there for the quality, they are going there because it's cheap. Please note that I am referring to society as a whole and not us audiophiles. We as a whole are different and are willing to pay for quality so please keep that in mind as I continue.

Like most companies, at the end of the day Martin Logan's priorities are NOT about putting a great speaker into our homes for as little money as possible. It's about making money. I am not trying to pick on ML here but the unfortunate fact is companies are driven by profit not by the goodness of their hearts.

So if ML is building stuff in China, can we blame them? They are only trying to provide us with the cheap product that we are willing to pay for and at the same time maximize their profits. It's win-win situation right? Well NO.

In the end we have created a disposable society that can not sustain itself and we are going to have serious problems very soon. We are going to have to rethink our consumer driven disposable society, as companies sure are not going to do it for us. After all its good for business if we don't think. A famous politician once said something along the lines of "How great it would be if the people stopped thinking for themselves".
A corporation is a money making machine, it serves no other purpose!

I could go on forever about the problems in the corporate world, but I won't. For those of you that have not seen the documentary "The Corporation" I strongly suggest that you do. www.thecorporation.tv
It's a great eye opener. The world has got to change. What type of legacy are we leaving for those yet to come?

I strongly encourage you to get involved. No one is going to fix these problems for us. It's up to each and every one of us to do something about it.

There are so many things I want to say right now, but I have to bite my tongue (ouch! :) )
This is one subject I am very passionate about. (Can you tell?)

End of rant.

Cheers,
Nick

P.S. By the way, the politician I was quoting was Adolf Hitler.

Also, sorry for some of the vast generalizations I have made here. But I think you guys all know the point I am trying to make.
 
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risabet

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Sadly outsourcing is a way of life. I too thought my speaks were made in the USA, though that didn't influence my decision to purchase. Sound is the reason after all. but one can understand that M-L is in business to make money. If their business model requires them to source components off shore so be it, they should however be more forthright about where their products are made. BTW, I am a union member and certainly no apologist for corporate America.
 
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attyonline

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Adolph Hitler and corporate intrigue$$!!? Geez. Lighten up and look objectively at reality. Simple economics people. A few of you seem to take great offense that ML may be making a higher profit margin on some of their speakers, and then castigate them for doing so. How many of you turned down a raise on your job for any reason? I thought so. As for Ikea and Walmart, don't kid yourself. People will pay for quality if you can demonstrate it is worth the additional price. That you cannot do so on a consistent basis demonstrates the success of these companies. Reallity is that our ecomomy has always looked for ways to make products for less money. I hope it can be done here in the USA, but absent trade barriers which I take that many of you favor, it will be done overseas. Lower prices benefit everyone in the long run. It also like the tide, it is inevitable in time and all you can do is delay it, not provent it. :)
 
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Nick

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attyonline said:
Adolph Hitler and corporate intrigue$$!!? Geez. Lighten up and look objectively at reality. Simple economics people. A few of you seem to take great offense that ML may be making a higher profit margin on some of their speakers, and then castigate them for doing so. How many of you turned down a raise on your job for any reason? I thought so. As for Ikea and Walmart, don't kid yourself. People will pay for quality if you can demonstrate it is worth the additional price. That you cannot do so on a consistent basis demonstrates the success of these companies. Reallity is that our ecomomy has always looked for ways to make products for less money. I hope it can be done here in the USA, but absent trade barriers which I take that many of you favor, it will be done overseas. Lower prices benefit everyone in the long run. It also like the tide, it is inevitable in time and all you can do is delay it, not provent it. :)
Your right attyonline, I should lighten up a little. It was late last night when I typed my first message. But I still hold by it.

I was not trying to pick on ML.
I was merely trying to say that we can't blame ML for building speakers in Asia. In one way or another we (as society) have asked for it. In the end if Martin Logan chooses to outsource some things, I think it's fine. If they want to charge more or less, that their choice too, it's their company not mine.

The only thing I would have a problem with is the ethics of it <b>IF</b> they are lying. Meaning, if they are telling people that they are US made when really they are not, then there would be a problem. If they are made in China and ML says they are made in China, then I don't see any issues. Besides, I don't see ML compromising the quality of their product.

In the end, it is us as the consumer that makes the decision to buy them.
 
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