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Vista vs Vantage - What's the difference?

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Craig

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I thought the new Vista was going to be little smaller than the Vantage. They both have the same sized panel (width and height) and both have an 8" aluminum woofer. The only significant difference is that the cabinet on Vista is a little shallower and minus the internal amp. It is basically a Vantage without the internal amp. I'm a little surprised because I thought it was going to be a smaller speaker.
 

Joey_V

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Craig said:
I thought the new Vista was going to be little smaller than the Vantage. They both have the same sized panel (width and height) and both have an 8" aluminum woofer. The only significant difference is that the cabinet on Vista is a little shallower and minus the internal amp. It is basically a Vantage without the internal amp. I'm a little surprised because I thought it was going to be a smaller speaker.
From reports from Stesom, the Vista features a less beefy 8" driver... and extension only down to 46hz (ala Clarity and Aeon)... the Vantage goes straight to 34hz with its slot port and beefier driver. As for the panel, I'm not sure what the difference is, ML told me that it would be a smaller panel but from measurements, it looks to be the same panel.

I think the Vista is set to be at the $4000 mark, making it an expensive speaker... I'm sure ML is planning a smaller speaker (ala Clarity) to fill the $3K void.

Joey
 

stesom

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Joey_V said:
From reports from Stesom, the Vista features a less beefy 8" driver... and extension only down to 46hz (ala Clarity and Aeon)... the Vantage goes straight to 34hz with its slot port and beefier driver. As for the panel, I'm not sure what the difference is, ML told me that it would be a smaller panel but from measurements, it looks to be the same panel.

I think the Vista is set to be at the $4000 mark, making it an expensive speaker... I'm sure ML is planning a smaller speaker (ala Clarity) to fill the $3K void.

Joey
I think the above is an accurate description of the difference. If anything, ML wanted to offer a high level of performance at a lower price point. I will have to check, but I thought the Vistas are around $3.5K which is a lot less than the Vantage..........Steve
 

Reverb

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The Vantage and Vista looks to be the same speaker, except the Vantage has a heavy-duty 8” woofer and built in mono amplifier.

The Summit and Vantage are grate speakers but I think Martin Logan recognizes not everyone wants a speaker with a built in amp, so now you have options. The vista will more then likely be harder to drive without the vantages built in amp, but should be a good choice for anyone that can’t afford the vantage.
 

Craig

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I wasn't complaining, I was just making an observation that the speaker basically is a non-powered Vantage. That's not a bad thing, I think there certainly is a market for that. Idam with his biamped LC Audio zapsolute amplifiers is a prime example.

A difference I consider signficant from the Aeon is that the Vista is more sensitive at 90dB vs 89dB for the Aeon which translates into getting more volume out of a lesser powered amp.
 

jmschnur

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89 vs 90 db

Now how much loader will 200 watts for for 90 db sensitivity versus 89 db sensitivity??

Do you think you will be able to hear this?

Joel
 
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rynopr

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Is the Vantage made to replace the Odyssey, or the Ascenti?
 

Reverb

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rynopr said:
Is the Vantage made to replace the Odyssey, or the Ascenti?
Summit replaced the Prodigy and Odyssey.

Vantage replaced the Ascent i.

Vista replaced the Aeon i.

Clarity's replacment is in the works.

Stage will replace the Theater i.

Cinema and Script i's replacements (I assume) are also in the works.
 
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SteveInNC

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jmschnur said:
Now how much loader will 200 watts for for 90 db sensitivity versus 89 db sensitivity??

Do you think you will be able to hear this?

Joel
Effectively no. You have to appproximately double power for a 3 dB increase in SPL, which is normally considered the threshold for a "noticeable" difference in volume.

"Under controlled conditions, in an acoustical laboratory, the trained healthy human ear is able to discern changes in sound levels of 1 dB, when exposed to steady, single frequency ("pure tone") signals in the mid-frequency range. It is widely accepted that the average healthy ear, however, can barely perceive noise level changes of 3 dB."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibels#Acoustics_in_air

This assumes that the speakers convert all of that power to SPL. The above efficiencies are also typically measured as 1 watt at 1 meter distance - you'll likely be farther away than that which will also reduce the effective volume for a given power input.
 

jjqiv

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Vista vs Vantage - What's the difference

They both start with the letter "V". However, the big difference is one has a total of seven letters and other has only five.
 

Craig

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Now how much loader will 200 watts for for 90 db sensitivity versus 89 db sensitivity??
1 dB rating of a speakers sensitivity is significant and noticeable. Exactly how much louder? I don't know. However, I do know each increment of speaker sensitivity rating is noticeable. 2-3 steps is very noticeable. The difference between an 89dB speaker and a 95dB speaker is huge. Try using a 15 watt amp to drive a 89db speaker and a 92db speaker and you will definitely hear a difference not only in volume but probably also in sound quality.

Effectively no. You have to appproximately double power for a 3 dB increase in SPL, which is normally considered the threshold for a "noticeable" difference in volume.
I don't dispute the fact that the human ear is not very accurate in distinguishing dB levels. But keep in mind that the sensitivity spec is measuring how loud the speaker will play at 1 watt and/or 2.83 volts = XXdB at 1 meter. This spec is a very helpful clue in determining how much power is required to make a speaker perform. In other words, you don't have to double the amplifier power to attain the same volume level if the speaker is a mere 3db more sensitive. Therefore a 92dB Summit only needs 1/2 as much power as an 89dB Aeon i.
 

SteveInNC

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Craig said:
1 dB rating of a speakers sensitivity is significant and noticeable. Exactly how much louder? I don't know. However, I do know each increment of speaker sensitivity rating is noticeable. 2-3 steps is very noticeable. The difference between an 89dB speaker and a 95dB speaker is huge. Try using a 15 watt amp to drive a 89db speaker and a 92db speaker and you will definitely hear a difference not only in volume but probably also in sound quality.

I don't dispute the fact that the human ear is not very accurate in distinguishing dB levels. But keep in mind that the sensitivity spec is measuring how loud the speaker will play at 1 watt and/or 2.83 volts = XXdB at 1 meter. This spec is a very helpful clue in determining how much power is required to make a speaker perform. In other words, you don't have to double the amplifier power to attain the same volume level if the speaker is a mere 3db more sensitive. Therefore a 92dB Summit only needs 1/2 as much power as an 89dB Aeon i.
The typical sensitivity stat represents a single sample along a power input curve (specifically, at 1 watt). The curve may vary in a linear or nonlinear fashion across the range of input power, and may be considerably less than a 1:1 slope in any case, meaning that doubling the input power may only increase the output level by 1 dB(SPL) instead of 3dB(SPL) (for example). Sensitivity is not equal to efficiency. Technically, you have to double the sound pressure output to equal a 3dB difference. Input power to the speaker is very unlikely to result in 100% efficient conversion to output sound pressure due to assorted losses such as mechanical heating, system electrical resistance, etc.

See these:
JSD Sound Design
Speaker sensitivity is a specification provided by all manufacturers of high-quality speakers. The sensitivity rating has no relation to sound quality, as some of the very best speakers have low ratings. Sensitivity ratings simply tell you how much sound a speaker will produce for a given power input.

Sensitivity ratings are given in decibels per watt at one meter, or db/Wm. So, with an input of one watt (usually white noise), a speaker with a sensitivity of 90 db/Wm will produce 90 decibels of sound at a distance of one meter. A sensitivity of 90 is considered average, with ratings of 87 and below considered low sensitivity and above 93 considered high sensitivity. To increase the volume by 3 db, you must double the power. So, using the example above, to make 93 db you would need two watts, and to make 96 decibels, four watts.
http://www.jsdsound.com/sensitivity.htm

Crutchfield
Efficiency
Although a speaker's efficiency rating is almost always correlated to its sensitivity rating, it is actually a different measurement. The efficiency rating for a speaker is a measure of how well a speaker converts watts of electrical power into watts of acoustical power. Most speakers have a very low efficiency rating — between 1% and 10% — so manufacturers rarely provide this information, choosing instead to list sensitivity ratings.

Sensitivity
A sensitivity rating tells you how effectively a speaker converts power (watts) into volume (decibels). The higher the rating, the louder your speakers will play with a given amount of amplifier power. Sensitivity is often measured by driving a speaker with one watt and measuring the loudness in decibels at one meter.

The chart below illustrates that a few dB in sensitivity can make a big difference:

Speaker Sensitivity
rating Power needed
to produce a given volume
Speaker A 85 dB 100 watts
Speaker B 88 dB 50 watts
Speaker C 91 dB 25 watts
A speaker with a sensitivity rating that's 3 dB higher than another speaker's
only needs half as much power to deliver the same amount of sound.
http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/learningcenter/car/speakers_glossary.html (see Efficiency, Sensitivity)

I'm not sure that I believe Crutchfield's 1-10% efficiency quote, but it demonstrates the point.

Here is a physics site discussing all of this, and it even supplies audio tests you can do yourself on your computer. In particular the page linked via "hearing response" will let you graph your own hearing curve. Note that perceived loudness varies with frequency too:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html
 

Craig

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The chart below illustrates that a few dB in sensitivity can make a big difference: Speaker Sensitivity rating Power needed to produce a given volume.
Speaker A 85 dB 100 watts
Speaker B 88 dB 50 watts
Speaker C 91 dB 25 watts
A speaker with a sensitivity rating that's 3 dB higher than another speaker's
only needs half as much power to deliver the same amount of sound.
Exactly, and that is my point. These newer ML models with a higher sensitivity rating means the paradigm that electrostats require gobs of power to achieve good sound quality has changed. Thier increased sensitivity rating means there are certain amplifiers that can now be used that wouldn't work on previous models. For example: A 92dB Summit will sound pretty good driven with a 15 watt Cary 300SEI amp while a 90db Ascent will be too underpowered and sound poorly. I had the opportunity to try this at home. The Ascent was just too underpowered. I'm not saying a 15W amp tube is optimal for the Summit but it will work and sound good. It will make sound with the Ascent but the sound is not something you would want to listen to for any length of time. Of course sound quality is subjective, but the difference between these two was not subtle.

The sensitivity rating has no relation to sound quality, as some of the very best speakers have low ratings.
True, however, a low sensitivity speaker needs a lot of power to sing and may even sound superb. Use a low powered amp on that low sensitive speaker and it will probably sound like crap. The sensitivity rating is just one spec (but not the only one) that is useful to help match an amp to a speaker.
 
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jmschnur

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While the sensitivity ratngs may be useful, the input impedence (<1 ohm)numbers at 10KHZ-15KHz imply a much larger current rating than is typical in a 50 watt amplifier.

So I would guess a higher power amp would be required to handle the entire spectrum in a linear fasion as output incerases.

It would be interesting to look at 10Khz-16khz sound pressure versus power from 80 db to 95 db or so and compare that to the same for pink noise.


Joel
 

Daryl Zero

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Well, I actually saw and heard the Vistas today.

My dealer has the first ones off the line, serial #1.

I saw them side by side with the Vantage. They look identical other than the base. The rails are the same.

To me they sounded a bit thin. I was able to switch back and forth with the Vantages and they were missing a surprising amount of mid-bass. The dealer was concerned that consumers wouldn't want the Vantages because the Vistas are about the same thing. My conclusion was that the Vistas are used in Home Theater and the Vantage used stand alone.

It was a bit odd because I had really loved the Vantages but the price stopped me. I did not feel that same love for the Vistas so the lower price did not compel me to think about getting them.
 

Craig

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To me they sounded a bit thin.
Typical new speaker syndrome, They can't be broken in yet.
My conclusion was that the Vistas are used in Home Theater and the Vantage used stand alone.
That seems like a good reason to buy the Vistas over the Vantages. Use the difference in price towards a sub.
 

Craig

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They both start with the letter "V". However, the big difference is one has a total of seven letters and other has only five.
So you're claiming they are practically identical to the Depth and Descent?
 

Daryl Zero

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Craig said:
Typical new speaker syndrome, They can't be broken in yet.

That seems like a good reason to buy the Vistas over the Vantages. Use the difference in price towards a sub.
You may be correct. How much difference does the break in really matter and does it exist? There aren't moving parts are there?

The difference in tone was in the mids not the low bass. I really am not that interested in the way down lows for music and for HT you are correct about the sub. If the speaker does break in and sound better than it is a harder choice.

But then you can still get some Aeons i for about $2700 or so which are a bit more like the Vantage than the Vista, or are they? I'm so confused.

What is the big advantage of the Vistas over the Aeon i? I know the sweet spot is bigger and it is easier to drive. Anything else?
 
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