Vantages and a sub-woofer?

[Caerus]

As everyone knows the Vantage has an internal powered sub-woofer good down to 34 Hz. Is it desirable or even necessary to enhance the bass with the addition of a sub-woofer for two channel music? Obviously for home theater a sub-woofer is needed. I think for most music the Vantage is fine by itself, but some times it would be nice to reinforce the bottom with a complementing sub-woofer. I listen to mostly two channel music 80-90% of the time. What do you experienced guys think?

My read there are two options:

1) So if the Vantage is fine for two channel music with out the need for extra bass, then all I need for my system is a good sub-woofer for home theater only.
2) If it is desirable to enhance the bass of the Vantages, then I would want a sub-woofer that is musical that integrates well with the Vantage and can do double duty as a good home theater sub-woofer.

After researching the local stores and demos, I have come down to the following selections:

Old Depth can be had new in the box on Audiogon for $1295

New Depth i $1895

REL R305 new for $1395 (I ruled this out as not sufficient for home theater in my size room)

REL R505 new for $1750

Velodyne SPL-1200R new for $1395

I must say I like the hook up of the REL with the high-level connection to the amp for music and RCA to the LFE for home theater. The REL is very musical and integrates well with the speakers. The ML subs are well known here and work well for home theater and two channel music. I have also heard great reviews about the Velodyne sub-woofers as well. Depending on the out come of the above two options, which sub would be best? Keep in mind I don’t have an unlimited budget. I also have other items I am looking at. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Brad

 

[IWalker]

Depth for $1300, or build your own.

You're welcome to demo mine since you live in Charlotte, to see if it would fit your needs. See if you can demo a depth as well to see if that would do what you need as well.

 

[Rich]

Since you say you listen to two-channel music 80% to 90% of the time, I would focus on improving your system for two-channel music. A subwoofer might be a nice addition to help even out the bass response and provide a little bit of extra punch for those bass drum notes, but I think that you would get more bang for the buck with some other upgrades.

I have the same receiver that you are using (bought it a long time ago for a Def Tech home theater system). I have never been able to stand it for very long hooked up to the Martin Logans. It is just too harsh and does a poor job overall of driving the logans. I think using the pre-outs of that yamaha and upgrading to a separate amp, such as a sunfire, would give you much more bang for the buck than adding a subwoofer at this time.

Also, do you have any room treatments? Adding more bass isn't necessarily going to be an improvement if the bass you already have isn't under control. Some bass traps in the corners of your room could give you much more bass improvement than a separate subwoofer. Just my random thoughts. Good luck with it.

 

[Caerus]

Rich,

Thanks for the reply. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. Your first statement concurs with my thoughts that it is nice some of the time, but not always necessary to have extra base. Depends on the music type. Even so, the times I do listen to HT the extra base is needed and the Vantages can't quite feel that void when in a 5.1 system.

The RX-V2700 is a newer model with pure-direct mode (cuts out garbage circuits) which is nice but not the same as separates. I do have a separate Rotel RB-1080 driving the panels which is great. Wish I had a Pass Labs amp. Even so to get a totally separate two channel system (with integration into HT), I was thinking of replacing the Rotel amp with a integrated amp like the Krell KAV-400xi. That could be an inexpensive way to achieve that goal without starting all over and space considerations.

I will look into others ways of bass output as you mentioned. I doubt movement of the speakers will provide any more bass, but at the expense of the overall "sweet spot".

Thanks.

Brad

 

[IWalker]

Rich is right...though for the 10-20% of the time you watch movies, the sub is a necessity...and a really good sub can add a LOT to music. In fact, I think it's the single best upgrade I've made yet (besides the MLs to begin). It took me from kinda happy to VERY happy with the system...both with movies and music. It blows my built in woofers away in terms of cleanliness and depth of bass

 

[Pcar928fan]

Rich is right...though for the 10-20% of the time you watch movies, the sub is a necessity...and a really good sub can add a LOT to music. In fact, I think it's the single best upgrade I've made yet (besides the MLs to begin). It took me from kinda happy to VERY happy with the system...both with movies and music. It blows my built in woofers away in terms of cleanliness and depth of bass

I concur. I think a SUB can make a marked improvement in what you hear! I was playing with that thought just this past Sunday. I was listening to some LP's in 2 channel bypass mode which sends a full signal to my Prodigy and then I would switch over to the "regular" 2 channel mode that is really a 2.1 and it was a very nice fill from that mode. You don't notice the sub at all (if well integrated I suppose) but you notice greater depth to the music...just sounds fuller, if that is the right word.

I use a Descent.

I also agree that you should look to a used Descent or an REL for what you need as those are the most musical of subs you are likely to find!

All the best!

 

[Caerus]

James,

Thanks for the input. That was what I was concluding as well. So I guess it's not my imagination.

I have demo'd a Descent and a REL. I like the ease of integration of the REL. The Descent used is still some change.

OBTW, I love all your Porsches. I am a thirteen year PCA member and fond of them.

Brad

 

[Pcar928fan]

I have demo'd a Descent and a REL. I like the ease of integration of the REL. The Descent used is still some change.

OBTW, I love all your Porsches. I am a thirteen year PCA member and fond of them.

There are a few of us P-car guys on the list here! I was the local VP for 4 years, the Pres for a year after that, and the chair of the Concours committe for 7 years! Been instructing at DE events for 8 years but I did take the last 2 years off from that, and been racing a year now...don't think I will hit any races this year though... To many other irons in the fire.

I think you can get a used Descent for $1500 or maybe even a touch less now that the i is out...

 

[Thai]

On my Denon 4306, i can play "Pure Direct" with the sub ON...thus, 2.1 Pure Direct. And like above, i like 2.1 over 2.0. I cross my sub at 40 Hz though...and set the gain (35Hz dial) on my Vantages to +1.

 

[Caerus]

James,

Good to hear about other Pcar owners here. I also have instructed HPDE for many clubs (PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, Car Guys, Chin Motorsports, Mustang Club, Corvette Museum etc.). I got kinda burn't out and I am taking a break too. So I know what you mean. The money saved is going to good use, I am throwing it into this hobby. I sold my Featherlite open trailer for some Vantages. Not a bad trade. Nothing to show after thousands of dollars towards race tires and brake pads etc. and mod. components going for 25% of cost. At least some audio components have much better value.

Thanks for the Descent tip. Boy that sub is big, but that is expected.

 

[musicman]

I have a pair of Vantages couple with a Descent "i" and the bass with the Vantage alone is excellent but with the Descent "i" it is impressive. I have not try the Rel so cannot comment on them. If you go with the Martin Logan sub you should consider the "i" version since it match beautifully with the Vantage. This is one of the reason I traded up my Depth for the Descent "i".

Musicman

 

[IWalker]

If you can get a descent for $1500, it's a no brainer. descent is an awesome sub...goes low and has good output. If you can't find it for that little money, than the other options discussed work well.

Here's one for $1700, and one that is already sold went for $1400. It's well worth an additional $500 over the depth, as it's output is roughly equivalent to 2 depths. You might hold out and watch audiogon as well, to see if any come up at a lower price.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1180192594

 

[TDUB]

Caerus

You have recieved some very good replies in this thread. I have the Odysseys which have a similar output characteristic to the Vantages. I do not use my Depth sub for 2 channel listening. My Odysseys fill the room with bass. However, the Depth definitely adds some punch for home theatre mode. What I have noticed, it does not give me the chest crunching bass in my room that I prefer. I would definitely go for the Descent if you can get one for $1500. If you have no luck, I am planning on getting a bigger sub myself for HT so I can make you a great deal on a used Depth right here in Charlotte.

 

[twich54]

Brad, Good evening, checking from sunny Fla...ahhhhhhhhh..... vacation comes to an end Fri.

Anyway, I can tell you from experience (Dan's house a couple of weeks ago) a PROPERLY integrates Sub makes a very, very nice addition to a two channel set-up.

I will have a Velodyne DD-15 waiting for me when I get home so stay tuned for my journey. FWIW, one needs a very good servo based sub with proper EQ to provide the synergy we need for two-channel enjoyment.

Dan, has been helpfull in my quest.

 

[Caerus]

Thanks musicman, Iwalker and TDUB for the information and Descent/Depth options. More and more options for sure. A used Descent is certainly an option which I have considered, but space encroachment can be an issue. I would have to possibly punt an end table. Bigger house is in order for upgrades - Joeyitis for sure!

Twich54,

I see a lonely Velodyne response. Your sub sounds impressive. Your point is very well taken and the reason for my sub quest here. Do you have any opinions on the Velodyne SPL-1200R? I’m thinking it may not be a servo sub, so it may not meet the requirements.

Thai, thanks for the input and it makes sense to me.

Brad

 

[Pcar928fan]

JI also have instructed HPDE for many clubs (PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, Car Guys, Chin Motorsports, Mustang Club, Corvette Museum etc.). I got kinda burn't out and I am taking a break too. Nothing to show after thousands of dollars towards race tires and brake pads etc. and mod. components going for 25% of cost. At least some audio components have much better value.

Thanks for the Descent tip. Boy that sub is big, but that is expected.

Roger that...I am totally with you on the above. LOVE my Descent! The Descent i is even BIGGER! That was the first thing that got me when I saw the new sub.

I probably have over 10,000 instructor/student miles under my belt as this point and while I know folks with WAY more than that I too needed a break. I hope this hobby holds its value better!

 

[Pcar928fan]

Thanks musicman, Iwalker and TDUB for the information and Descent/Depth options. More and more options for sure. A used Descent is certainly an option which I have considered, but space encroachment can be an issue. I would have to possibly punt an end table. Bigger house is in order for upgrades -

Brad the nice thing is that because of the triple driver set up in a Descent and Depth, you actually CAN use them as end tables... they hardly even vibrate even at full chat.

As to the "servo control" if you talk to the REL folks they will tell you that the only reason folks use a servo control is because they don't build the sub right in the first place! YMMV... Don't shoot the messenger! I was at a high end shop here in Austin last fall and that is what the Sumiko rep told us!

 

[Dan Prorok]

The Descent used is still some change.

Yes, but it has come down in price a LOT. The last few to sell on Audiogon were in the $1200-$1400 range. I just bought one for $1170 on Audiogon and get to pick it up this weekend. I can't wait!

With the price difference between the depth and descent so small right now, I decided to spring for the descent even though I have never demoed one and the depth alone impressed the heck out of me when I heard it some years ago.

It's going to be a fun weekend!

 

[IWalker]

Brad the nice thing is that because of the triple driver set up in a Descent and Depth, you actually CAN use them as end tables... they hardly even vibrate even at full chat.

As to the "servo control" if you talk to the REL folks they will tell you that the only reason folks use a servo control is because they don't build the sub right in the first place! YMMV... Don't shoot the messenger! I was at a high end shop here in Austin last fall and that is what the Sumiko rep told us!

And what else COULD the REL guy say? That certainly doesn't make it true. Sealed subwoofer construction is "so easy a cave man could do it."

 

[Peter Hogan]

As to the "servo control" if you talk to the REL folks they will tell you that the only reason folks use a servo control is because they don't build the sub right in the first place! YMMV... Don't shoot the messenger! I was at a high end shop here in Austin last fall and that is what the Sumiko rep told us!

Hi,
The servo control is feedback. It measures how the subwoofer cone is moving vs. the music signal, and generates a feedback signal that is added to the drive signal, to 'force' the cone to better follow the music signal. It is especially noticeable on drum whacks, where you have fast transients, and large cone movements. The feedback will accelerate and stop the cone faster than not having it.

Any info from a sales rep should be taken with a shaker full of salt. Since their subs don't have it, you don't need it...that's what I'd expect to hear from them...are they going to say their subs are defecient because they don't have it?...not likely

Peter