Trees and their effect in my room

[DTB300]

Well since everyone seems so busy with summer work and non-audiophile stuff, I figured it was time to start another thread BTW, true audiophiles never let the wife, kids, housework, etc. get in the way of listening to their systems...wait...hang on a sec...my wife is calling me... "yes dear, I'll be right there"......gotta run.....

Now let's get back to this audiophile stuff....with the pictures of people using some type of plants behind or in the corner of their ML's, I decided to give it a try in my system.

Previously I had tried some absorption behind and to the sides of my speakers (CLSIIz's), and even first reflection points, and never liked the results. These tests were with whatever I had around the house from heavy blankets or rugs, large pillows, bolsters, etc. Each and every time, the sound deadened too much.

So it was time to try some diffusion. Before going out to Michael's (craft store here on the east coast - you may have them around you) and purchasing some fake Ficus Trees, I went outside and cut some branches off some hanging limbs in my yard - cheap, easy to do, and they were getting in the way when my son mowed the yard I brought these into the house and hung them from my ceiling so them were behind the panels anywhere from a couple of inches to almost three feet behind. And I have a couple of different type trees in the yard with large type leaves (like Maple) to small thin type leaves (like willows) - I tried both types.

I did tests with a light density of leaves to tests with a heavy density of leaves, also covering different heights of the speaker (top 1/3 to top 2/3 of the panel).

While the density equated to differing amounts of effect, the effect was the same:

1. The sound stage was brought forward
2. The sound stage depth was compressed more from front to back

What type of affect did any of you find with diffusion behind your speaker? Same, different, good, bad? I would be interested, as I am sure others would be of your results.

Dan

 

[kach22i]

Don't need tree bugs in the house or on the speakers.

Perhaps those metal trees or optic fiber palm trees for a change of pace.

We have had a heat wave going on in Michigan right now, listened to the stereo last night to stay cool.

Note to self; don't drink Vodka and lemonade alone and when it's this hot out - bad idea.

 

[DTB300]

Perhaps those metal trees or optic fiber palm trees for a change of pace.

Yeah but don't really want to go get some fake one, bring them home and end up with the same effect, then have to go back and return them.....But I may just end up doing that to be sure it was not a live thing versus real...

BTW, no bugs on my branches.....

I am also working on low end absorption in the back of the room at the moment to hopefully treat some response issues below 200 Hz. I hope to comment on that change and its effect for others to read about soon.....

Dan

 

[kach22i]

I've thought about using my fireplace chimney as a giant bass tube absorber.............................does that make me dangerous?

 

[Kruppy]

I am also working on low end absorption in the back of the room at the moment to hopefully treat some response issues below 200 Hz. I hope to comment on that change and its effect for others to read about soon.....

Dan,
You're kind of hitting something that I'm just now starting to get into, sort of (and I don't mean to hi-jack your thread).

What about low end accentuation?

I'm currently running SL3s, which I know are bass shy (with the woofer currently set at 0dB vs -3dB). I just upgraded my pre from an Adcom 555II (with a contour setting (loudness)) to a PS Audio PCA-2. The contour setting gave a little bass boost that helped out (don't remember the xover point) that is proportional to the volume setting. The PCA-2 does not have any tone adjustments (of course I knew this prior to buying it). Beyond adding a sub (no cash to spare), are there any inexpensive (read wife friendly ) room treatments or ideas I should evaluate?

I have yet to play around with speaker location again to maximize bass. The last time I did this the sound stage suffered quite a bit and it took me some time to locate the speakers where they sit now.

Anyone else's thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[kach22i]

More is not better when it come to bass, but I think you know that and seek balance plus quality.

If you can feel the bass, you might feel connected to it more. Perhaps putting spikes on the bottom of a lawn chair, placing it in the sweet spot, removing your shoes and placing your feet flat on the ground/floor will do this.

I know this sounds extreem, but what do you have to lose except your socks?

 

[DTB300]

Dan, You're kind of hitting something that I'm just now starting to get into, sort of (and I don't mean to hi-jack your thread).What about low end accentuation?

No problem on the Hi-jack as we are talking about room acoustics here. I am talking about reducing you are talking about adding. I am very new to all of this so I talk about it from a extreme newbie education.

Absorption of excess bass is the easy part with bass trap type devices usually located in corners and seams. There are many DIY Bass Traps out there and a few good forums talking on the subject of acoustics hosted by Rives Audio and another with Ethan Winer. Some good reading in these forums.

Rives:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/bbs.html

Ethan Winer:
http://www.musicplayer.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/forum/f/26.html

Adding more bass is typically done (where I have read) by either adding a sub, or by biamping your speakers with Xover between the pre and power amps that has phase, xover and volume level - not as ideal as the sub. For me I run my CLS full range and have a sub with a Xover and external amp. With this I can adjust the low end of music by the Xover for what is needed for the particular recording. Works pretty well for me and it was not too much money - but then again I had some extra amps lying around.

I'm currently running SL3s, which I know are bass shy (with the woofer currently set at 0dB vs -3dB). I just upgraded my pre from an Adcom 555II (with a contour setting (loudness)) to a PS Audio PCA-2. The contour setting gave a little bass boost that helped out (don't remember the xover point) that is proportional to the volume setting. The PCA-2 does not have any tone adjustments (of course I knew this prior to buying it). Beyond adding a sub (no cash to spare), are there any inexpensive (read wife friendly ) room treatments or ideas I should evaluate?

Not that I have seen or heard about other than what I mentioned above, but that does not mean something is not out there.

I have yet to play around with speaker location again to maximize bass. The last time I did this the sound stage suffered quite a bit and it took me some time to locate the speakers where they sit now.Anyone else's thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Changing location will help, but you may have to decide on the tradeoff with the movement. To remember where the speakers were, use some blue painters tape and mark the corners for where they were, then start moving around and see what you get.

Dan

 

[risabet]

The vodka's a great idea. . .

Don't need tree bugs in the house or on the speakers.
Perhaps those metal trees or optic fiber palm trees for a change of pace.

We have had a heat wave going on in Michigan right now, listened to the stereo last night to stay cool.

Note to self; don't drink Vodka and lemonade alone and when it's this hot out - bad idea.

but don't use the TT after the second or third one . The shakes are hard on the stylus.

 

[garmtz]

Diffusion works better than absorption with ML speakers. If you want to try something inexpensive acoustic treatment that REALLY works well, try Auralex (http://www.auralex.com). Their DST-36 package is not very expensive, But VERY effective. Essentially neutral sounding, not taking away life at all. I am going to use this stuff in my dedicated Home Theater room.

 

[kach22i]

but don't use the TT after the second or third one . The shakes are hard on the stylus.

I hate growing old, I'm finished drinking at the same stage I used to be "just getting started" 20 years ago.

One advantage of a low budget turntable like the Dual 503 CS, is that it has auto lift (just lifts straight up - table keeps spinning) and a great lever arm for that first track which allows the tonearm to go down at the same speed every time.

I 'm half-way serious about feeling the vibrations thing. I played Pink Floyd's - Dark Side of the Moon, in two different chairs in the same spot. One chair seemed to transmit the bass into my tail-bone better. It just felt like more bass.

The other experiment was with a movie soundtrack. In one instance I held my hand flat on the seat cushion. The other instance arms were folded or held behind my head. When my hands were flat on the cushion feeling the bass transmit up, I felt more in-tune with the music and like there was more bass.

As you may of guessed moderate drinking may adversely affect the test results.

 

[DTB300]

Diffusion works better than absorption with ML speakers. If you want to try something inexpensive acoustic treatment that REALLY works well, try Auralex (http://www.auralex.com). Their DST-36 package is not very expensive, But VERY effective. Essentially neutral sounding, not taking away life at all. I am going to use this stuff in my dedicated Home Theater room.

The diffusion test I did, did not remove any of the sound, it just compressed the sound stage depth and moved it forward some.

$100 for 36 of them (1' squares).......The T-Fusor is 24" square and comes 4 to a box for $200. So the DST seems better priced. But would hate to drop $100 to find out I get the same results as the trees. The forward moving of the sound stage and the compressing of the stage depth was not what I consider an improvement in sound.

 

[garmtz]

The diffusion test I did, did not remove any of the sound, it just compressed the sound stage depth and moved it forward some.

$100 for 36 of them (1' squares).......The T-Fusor is 24" square and comes 4 to a box for $200. So the DST seems better priced. But would hate to drop $100 to find out I get the same results as the trees. The forward moving of the sound stage and the compressing of the stage depth was not what I consider an improvement in sound.

I understand... Trying in your own room is of course the best solution (this is what we do with our clients, we are Auralex dealer). Never failed to impress me however. The Auralex foam has very broadband absorption, but it doesn't sound it absorps at all, it just makes the room sound better! I visited a studio STUFFED with Auralex foam and it sounded quiete lively. That is what really got me going on this product. The foam not only aborps however, it also diffuses. The real diffusors are harder to work with and you really should know your stuff using them. Broadband absorption works easier in most cases, except when you have a VERY large room.

Most of the DIY stuff I tried made the room sound dead, probably because it absorps very small frequency band or has a slow release of sound energy back into the room.

Hate to not have my Home Theater ready yet, so I can send you some pictures or let you know my findings with Martin Logan speakers.

 

[SugarMedia]

Hello Garmtz...

I would be willing to order some of this Auralex from you, but there's no way I can have 24-36 panels in my living room. Even 10 panels is probably too much for my wife to let me have.

My listenening room is: 24-m2 with 3m high ceilings, Any thoughts??

I was also seriously considering EighthNerve, as they offer a reasonable price and it seems like the white ones will be fairly discrete if placed in the corners of my room. http://www.eighthnerve.com/response.html

Back to plants... here's my (soon to be) attempt at plants behind the speakers...

 

[Jeff Zaret]

So my idea of the trees was not that good I see. I did use the fake Ficus trees and yes they do bring the sound more forward than before. Yes they also seem to soften the rear relfection and maybe too much. In my case, I already had the trees and it did help some of the back reflections I was getting.

My speakers are "toed-in" with one side 33 inches from the back wall and the other about 46 inches from the back wall. There is also a corner that is about dead center from the speaker which is over 50 inches from the center.

Ok I will admit it is not perfect but it did help the backwave or reflection a bit. This is a work in progress for sure. I put them behind the speakers the same time I replaced the panels, so maybe I should listen to them again with out the trees.

In my case it did not cost anything and it was a change and whether it was better or not I am not sure.

Are we having fun yet?

Jeff

 

[Rouvin]

Silk and bass

The tree experiments are great and interesting. I’ve found plants and the diffusion they offer to be at least helpful with the ML’s over the years. An ML rep told me that they use silk curtains at shows to help with this and that silk worked better than other fabrics.

My experiments with my system have made me lose faith that there can be any sonic “truth” for me, and I suspect, for any of us. That’s not to say that there aren’t important strategic compromises that can be established in a given system for a listener in a particular room, nor is it to claim that certain errors (like mistracking from a cartridge corrected by readjusting anti-skate or elimination of a particular room resonance) can’t be largely reduced – but correct? Faithful to the original performance? On my best days, I’m no better than skeptical on this one. Does anyone else’s system you have heard sound like yours. Do individual components auditioned in the store or at someone else’s sound like they do in your home? Then, there’s the reviewers. Having read many of the same people saying “....it’s the last ______(fill in the blank with the component of your choice) you will ever need to buy...." only to have them proclaim a “new reference standard” on another item shortly thereafter, I’m a bit dubious.

That being said, I do have my preferences, the transparency, delicacy and soundstaging of ML’s with tubes being one.

A persistent complaint of the ML’s is in the bass, somewhat deficient, with some, or discontinuous with others. In some previous posts, I wrote how the Mapleshade 4" maple amp stands and associated supports made the bass on my Quest Z’s less discontinuous.

Now, I think it worth mentioning that I have recently done a number of interconnect auditions and have found that the Audio Metallurgy Ga 0's added an extraordinary and very well defined amount of bass and highs. On cymbals, they were very extended, airy yet solid, unmistakably metal. I have the impression that these cables could solve the bass problems for most people, if their overall sonic signature is otherwise acceptable. I’m not saying that it is unacceptable, but there were enormous differences between different cables, some of which I really liked and preferred in some ways, but these had the combination of virtues that seemed to work best for me. The differences between these cables and 5 other brands, all well regarded, in the bass were unmistakable. Since they can be bid on at Audiogon and end up costing not much more than what most think of as mid fi, they might be worth trying because they are returnable even when won at auction.
Rouvin

 

[DTB300]

The tree experiments are great and interesting. I’ve found plants and the diffusion they offer to be at least helpful with the ML’s over the years. An ML rep told me that they use silk curtains at shows to help with this and that silk worked better than other fabrics.

Hmmm...maybe that is why the fake plants may work better as they are usually made of silk or a "silk-type" fabric. Like I stated earlier, it still might be something worth trying.

My experiments with my system have made me lose faith that there can be any sonic “truth” for me, and I suspect, for any of us.

I agree we will never reach that "truth", but to be able to try things out to see if it is for the better is time well spent. It comes down to a matter of how much money are we will to spend to test these things out.

That being said, I do have my preferences, the transparency, delicacy and soundstaging of ML’s with tubes being one.

That seems to be a common thought for most people here, and it is what drove me to try them out, but in all my auditioning and testing, I just could not find the right tube amp for my CLSIIz's and my system.

Now, I think it worth mentioning that I have recently done a number of interconnect auditions.......

Yes, the old cable debate. I am in your corner on them making a difference in a system but like all the other things we can do, it can be a cheap audition or an expensive one. But you also made a great point, that most companies now will offer you a trial period to see how they sound, so we no longer have to buy and hope.

Dan

 

[garmtz]

I would be willing to order some of this Auralex from you, but there's no way I can have 24-36 panels in my living room. Even 10 panels is probably too much for my wife to let me have.

I know... It isn't a particularly WAF friendly solution. I am going to use these in a dedicated room, so that makes it more acceptable I guess. I am a dealer for Auralex in The Netherlands, so consulting a dealer more closely to where you live would be a better idea... I'd love to come over though, time and money permitting...

My listenening room is: 24-m2 with 3m high ceilings, Any thoughts??

Maybe try an irregular wall surface behind the speakers and at least 3 feet of distance to the wall and the panels. Experiment a lot with toe-in and that should be good enough in most case.

I was also seriously considering EighthNerve, as they offer a reasonable price and it seems like the white ones will be fairly discrete if placed in the corners of my room. http://www.eighthnerve.com/response.html

I don't find the claims of this company very scientifically sound... Try reading about acoustics on http://www.acoustics101.com/ and learn a LOT! The Corner treatment might work beneficial for room modes, but I think the Lenrd bass traps by Auralex work more effectively (although they are more ugly as well... )

Back to plants... here's my (soon to be) attempt at plants behind the speakers...

I like it, it might work! Try to first make a temporary set-up, just to try it out.

 

[DTB300]

So my idea of the trees was not that good I see. I did use the fake Ficus trees and yes they do bring the sound more forward than before. Yes they also seem to soften the rear relfection and maybe too much. In my case, I already had the trees and it did help some of the back reflections I was getting.

It was not that bad and well worth a try for now. It may be different for others and their rooms and setups, hence the post to see what others have found and tried.

Jeff...it would be good to find out what differences you have with the new panels, with and without the trees.

Dan

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Dan,
I will probably try it this weekend. I will let you know.

Jeff